Goblin Squad Member
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Pretty much what they said. ^^
You could avoid the settlement membership issue by basing your burgeoning empire out of one of the NPC-run starting areas, but I suspect that you may not be able to train advanced merchant skills there.
You could rely on NPC caravan guards, if they exist (we really don't know whether they will). The down side to NPC guards is that in every MMO to date, PCs can use cooperation and innovative tactics like feints and distractions to defeat or simply avoid NPCs of equal or greater power (level) than the PCs.
It'll be a challenge, that's for sure. Good luck, if that's the way you want to play. I guess we won't be chatting with you in-game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We know that people want different levels of social interaction, from solo play to being a part of a huge organization. The game design we're currently envisioning has several layers of grouping to facilitate those needs. As with each of these dev blogs, we're talking about elements of the design which are not set in stone and are always subject to change based on future development and feedback from the community.
Han Shot First—Playing Solo
Some people just want to be the lone wolf. A world filled with folks who rely on others is anathema to them. Self-reliance and individualism are their preferences.
Solo play is going to require a character that has quite a bit of diversity in character abilities. You'll want to be able to explore (to find stuff), to heal (to recover from the monsters that infest the stuff you find), to adventure (so you can cope with the hostile environments you'll be exploring), and to fight (so you can try to kill the creatures that make those environments especially hostile). (Sounds very "ranger-y" or "druid-y" to us.)
Some solo players won't even leave town. They'll become masters of crafting and market warfare, using their canny ability to time swings in prices and to identify opportunities for arbitrage to make their fortune. These spreadsheet warriors will be ready to pounce on the pricing mistakes of their less focused competitors, and can be the secret to success for the forces engaged in territorial warfare. (Or their downfall—a canny merchant never forgets a previous slight or betrayal.)
By and large the solo player is going to find that the game is a harder experience than it isfor the folks who play in groups. By design, Pathfinder Online seeks to maximize human interaction, so when you try to avoid other people, you'll find your road is harder and longer than those who seek companions. But there's something to be said for the feeling of accomplishment that comes from "I did it all by myself!" And for those lone wolves who do succeed, we'll salute you!
The bolded part is my emphasis.
I don't see anything in there that say they are discouraging solo play.
I think the only people really terrified of merchants playing careful, solo, and without leaving town are bandits. They seem to be the ones discouraging it the most. LOL Am I right here or am I right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite - Of course you can chat. I said that to -Markus-, because he said@KarlBob
Oh! If I play solo I can't chat? I didn't know that. What exactly does "solo" play mean? ;)
really I have little interest in playing with others and when I am forced to, I will not be social, in my mind they will simply be NPCs... When I want to be social, I go out with friends. When I want to build a powerful character and his merchant empire, I hope to be able to do it alone in pathfinder.
You, Bringslite, have not announced your intention to think of me as an NPC. -Markus- has. That's why I don't expect that -Markus- will be very active in the in-game chat channels. That's fine, and it's a perfectly valid way to play the game (At least we think it will be. The game's still a long way from opening).
I think the only people really terrified of merchants playing careful, solo, and without leaving town are bandits. They seem to be the ones discouraging it the most. LOL Am I right here or am I right?
I started this thread. I don't intend to play a merchant or a bandit as my main character. I posted this thread in response to comments I saw in several different threads where people who do intend to play merchants were worried that the Traveler flag and the Stand and Deliver system would make them overly vulnerable to people who do intend to play bandits.
Personally, I expect that if GW ever feels that the risks of the Traveler flag outweigh its rewards, they'll re-balance the flag. They intend it to be used, not avoided as more trouble than it's worth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@KarlBob
My apologies. I did not know that you were writing to -Markus- your post was under mine and I assumed that you were replying, a little, to both of us.
The rest of my comments were in response to another poster. He knows who he is. I have been debating the solo merchant thing with him and at least one of his cohorts. Again, my apologies for not being clearer in addressing. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@KarlBob
My apologies. I did not know that you were writing to -Markus- your post was under mine and I assumed that you were replying, a little, to both of us.
The rest of my comments were in response to another poster. He knows who he is. I have been debating the solo merchant thing with him and at least one of his cohorts. Again, my apologies for not being clearer in addressing. :)
Apology accepted, and appreciated. We're all pretty passionate about the way we each want this game to work.
I didn't have much time to post right then, so I skipped the quotes that would have made it clear that I was talking to -Markus-. I'm sorry, too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the only people really terrified of merchants playing careful, solo, and without leaving town are bandits. They seem to be the ones discouraging it the most. LOL Am I right here or am I right?
You could not be more wrong.
As a bandit I would encourage this person to hold on to his false hope that he should travel alone, and haul large quantities of the most valuable resources, and not to waste a single copper on an NPC guard.... And that he will know wealth beyond his wildest imagination and he will be comfy and secure.
And then we would launch our surprise attack, not even bothering with a SAD offer, because his haul is just too valuable to pass up. We would fly our Outlaw and Assassin Flags with glee, and slaughter him. Rob him blind, right down to the gold fillings in his teeth and the boots off his feet..... And then we will smile, laugh at his feeble bounty or his death curse, and we will welcome him to try again the next time.
However, the teacher in me would try to clear up some of his misconceptions and try to dispelll the delusion that he can not solo, because he can, but that he can not solo his way to a freaking empire.... Without crossing paths with the likes of me and my company, ready and willing to loot him.
You can keep on encouraging these beliefs, please do, it will be more lambs to our slaughter and more coin in our coffers. Or, you can do what I did, and give a bit of advisory against such naive beliefs.
SAD offers tend to give better loot, don't they? You should try an outrageous SAD first. :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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SAD offers tend to give better loot, don't they? You should try an outrageous SAD first. :D
Not sure, a SAD offers only a fraction of the loot ( Dev's wording) in exchange for a reputation bonus. However, SAD also gives up the ambush attack and the opportunity to take more of the loot ( Outlaw Flag bonuses).
They have not given exact numbers yet, so I couch this argument in the "not sure" category.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the only people really terrified of merchants playing careful, solo, and without leaving town are bandits. They seem to be the ones discouraging it the most. LOL Am I right here or am I right?You could not be more wrong.
As a bandit I would encourage this person to hold on to his false hope that he should travel alone, and haul large quantities of the most valuable resources, and not to waste a single copper on an NPC guard.... And that he will know wealth beyond his wildest imagination and he will be comfy and secure.
And then we would launch our surprise attack, not even bothering with a SAD offer, because his haul is just too valuable to pass up. We would fly our Outlaw and Assassin Flags with glee, and slaughter him. Rob him blind, right down to the gold fillings in his teeth and the boots off his feet..... And then we will smile, laugh at his feeble bounty or his death curse, and we will welcome him to try again the next time.
However, the teacher in me would try to clear up some of his misconceptions and try to dispelll the delusion that he can not solo, because he can, but that he can not solo his way to a freaking empire.... Without crossing paths with the likes of me and my company, ready and willing to loot him.
You can keep on encouraging these beliefs, please do, it will be more lambs to our slaughter and more coin in our coffers. Or, you can do what I did, and give a bit of advisory against such naive beliefs.
Mr. Bluddwolf,
Please read the bolded part of my statement that you quoted. It kind of makes your post useless but maybe good for a RP forum. Reading is key.
I did just fine playing WOW as a merchant, without leaving town and with only my few starting coppers. Solo. (please define "solo" and how your monk will be "solo") That market, someways easier, most ways more competetive built me a Freaking Empile of gold. Yes I wrote Empile.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My Monk character will play solo. I will only play him when the other members of my company are not online or when they may be playing their alt toons.
My Monk will travel around the world, and gather herbs. He will craft those herbs into healing salves and other remedies. He will give those salves and remedies away for free, to those that need them. He may barter those crafted items that he has, in exchange for training.
If he is attacked in the wilderness by bandits, he will always accept a SAD. Why would he risk death or killing someone over something he gives away freely?
What coin he does make, from PVE and probably from clearing Mobs from settlement hexes, he will use towards training or he will donate it to newer players in need. If he accepts a contract from another player, he would not accept money for his labors, but would exchange them for training or if the cause is particularly lawful and or neutral or good, he may just ask that the employer do a good deed for someone else.
He will explore the world, by himself, and produce maps showing his discoveries. Again, if he is attacked by PCs, he will try to take the path of least resistance. Hopefully only killing his opponents by deflecting their own attacks back at them.
He will not join a settlement, unless it is one that is dedicated to LN or LG and it would most likely have to be a Monk settlement (Monastery). Even then, he may wonder off for weeks or even months at a time.
He would carry little wealth, only simple threaded items, and he does not aspire to reach any high level or wealth, influence or outward power. His only ambition is to reach a level of physical, mental and spiritual perfection.
This kind of character can be soloed because I do not look for him to be a "mover and shaker" of world events. He is played to be humble, live modestly and to give of himself generously to those in more need than himself.
I hope that answers your first question....
As for your second question I will address that now:
First I would need to know more about your business model, so if I get some of this wrong, please feel free to correct it. I may then have to modify what my answer would be.
1. Assuming you remain in one location, you would have to purchase the raw materials from one vendor; refine them yourself or with another person; then craft the items, again either yourself or have that sent out as well; finally, bring the finished items to market.
Potentially paying three other people for their efforts, before you get a finished product to place on market. Then there would likely be a cost associated with placing item on market.
I would find this a difficult model to call "solo" because you would eventually develop a steady relationship with one of the three vendors (gatherer, refiner or crafter) or perhaps even with the buyer.
2. Assuming you don't leave town and you don't deal with any other party, then you are playing the markets like a day trader, and not really a "merchant". More of a commodities broker, but I may be using the wrong term.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf
Your definition of "solo" includes interactions of all kinds with all kinds of players and npcs. Yet you will maintain a "loner type persona".
I get that. That is basically what my definition of solo is also.
Now who, but you, ever said anything about being a "mover and a shaker" of world events? I just want to acquire wealth. It is the making of the profit from a very meager beginning. Turning small and large profit into an ever growing pile of gold, clams, Zippos, whatever it is called.
I will correct one thing:
Definition of MERCHANT
1: a buyer and seller of commodities for profit
Yes you are using the wrong term but not in the way you thought.
There is nothing, but your opinion, to support that the relationship developed by buying goods from the auction house or total strangers negates the term "solo play". Your own description of "solo monk play" indicates many interactions with other players. How many times will you need to get training? How many different places will there be to get specialized monk skills? Most of my time interacting as a merchant was with an npc auctioneer and total strangers selling things cheap or desperate to buy things at my prices. Does that negate "solo play"?
All of those goods and crafts that you described will likely be available for sale at every stage of their evolution. Buy low, sell high. Also they are physical goods and services, not stock, bonds, or commodities. So traditional MMO buying with intent to sell is traditional merchant behavior.
Not real sure that I want to play a solo merchant but I will definitely defend anyone's choice to do so. It is very doable. It can also be quite fun if you like that sort of thing. Alts can be used for other thrills.
I will also teach any merchants that want to be "town bound hogs" like I plan to be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Has it been mentioned if there will be a global auction house, or a city/settlement level auction house*?
If at a settlement level, you will have a smaller user base to sell items to. Getting those precious items to the correct market to raise profits will be a large part if the game. This of course makes it much more difficulty (or less profitable) for a solo player.
*The term Auction house used generically. It could very well be a marketplace or a trading post of some kind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Has it been mentioned if there will be a global auction house, or a city/settlement level auction house*?
If at a settlement level, you will have a smaller user base to sell items to. Getting those precious items to the correct market to raise profits will be a large part if the game. This of course makes it much more difficulty (or less profitable) for a solo player.
*The term Auction house used generically. It could very well be a marketplace or a trading post of some kind.
It has not been mentioned that there will be a global AH. There has been some mention that there will be a local one I believe.
*Settlements cost money to upkeep; if they run out buildings begin shutting down and are eventually destroyed if the money is not paid. Settlement's can levy taxes on various interactions such as posting goods on the auction house, training costs, etc. The less lawful a settlement is, the more of these taxes it loses to graft and disorganization. So a Chaotic settlement will require more work to keep it funded while a Lawful settlement will be easier to keep funded.
Time will tell if $$$ can be made at these local auction houses. They will be smaller but I believe people will come to the settlement I choose if higher quality goods are as scarce as they are indicated to be. Also the auction house is not the only way to make $$$. Assuming that it is, limits your potential to make $$$. Not saying that you are interested in that, just writing about merchants.
Like many others, I will have an Alt that I use to maximize opportunities in other settlements, maybe gather, maybe craft, etc... Not sure that qualifies as "solo play' but I never said that I would play solo. Whatever that actually is?
I am just defending any merchant player's choice to play that way if they choose. Seems like avowed bandits are the most active in posting why it is undesirable to play in that style. Again, whatever solo play is...
Also defending any merchant's choice to sit, fat, in one place and get rich while totally avoiding bandits and other "special tax collectors".
Some solo players won't even leave town. They'll become masters of crafting and market warfare, using their canny ability to time swings in prices and to identify opportunities for arbitrage to make their fortune. These spreadsheet warriors will be ready to pounce on the pricing mistakes of their less focused competitors, and can be the secret to success for the forces engaged in territorial warfare. (Or their downfall—a canny merchant never forgets a previous slight or betrayal.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Has it been mentioned if there will be a global auction house...
Here is where I think we are in terms of a design:
Each Settlement will have a central market. In order to place a buy or sell order on that market you will have to physically visit that market. Information about the buy & sell orders on the market will be visible to you depending on the state of your character's abilities. Everyone will be able to go to a Settlement and see it's market orders, but some characters may be able to get that information at a distance.
When you place a sell order you'll put the inventory into escrow at the Settlement where you're placing the order. When you place a buy order you'll place the price into escrow and when the order matches, your inventory will be delivered to the Settlement where the sell order was posted. You'll have to transport the material from there to wherever else you need it if you wish to move it elsewhere.
Realistically there will be players who set up alts in every Settlement and generate near-real time information on every market, then centralize that information in tools they either keep proprietary or make available to the whole community. There's virtually no way to stop that from happening, so we'll just accept it and move on.
You will be able to control the price you offer to buy or sell an item at. So you will be able to compete with other market participants on price and quantity. When a sell order and a buy order match, they'll be immediately filled. Purchasing something by browsing the market, seeing an item at a price you want to pay, and buying it on the spot will be supported as well (you'll likely always pay the lowest offered price, to avoid scams and accidents).
We may or may not make visible the information about who is doing the buying and the selling. We will make visible price data for every item type so you can see the market price history and volume data.
This is all essentially identical to the EVE system.
Before we can talk about independent shops or bazaars we need to get at least this level of functionality implemented first, so until all of that content is deployed, we won't be Crowdforging on the question of what else to do with markets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"I am just defending any merchant player's choice to play that way if they choose. Seems like avowed bandits are the most active in posting why it is undesirable to play in that style. Again, whatever solo play is..."
Never said it was undesirable, nor was I sure what was meant by playing a merchant vs. being a commodities broker. I did say, depending on what you were talking about I might have to modify my opinion.
Based on the post above, it is unclear if there will be a global market, and it seems the direction is for more regional markets instead. That does not mean you can't make money from buying and selling on the regional markets or the global, but there might also be a requirement to physically pick up the goods.
This is a medieval setting, not a science fiction with advanced technology. Unless magic is at the core of the auction house system, physical travel by someone may be required .
I hope you get the system that you hope for and the play style you hope for. Whether you sit in one spot or not, someone else will be moving the items from one place to another. We bandits will have plenty of targets, no matter what.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Like many others, I will have an Alt that I use to maximize opportunities in other settlements, maybe gather, maybe craft, etc... Not sure that qualifies as "solo play' but I never said that I would play solo. Whatever that actually is?
Okay I'll take a stabbity-stab-stab-stab at it.
'Soloing' is adventuring alone in an online world.
While crafting, marketing, playing the market is not usually considered 'soloing' per se, those are often performed in a solo fashion. That is, it is done without a need or desire to be 'grouped' with other players.
The soloist is often berated for 'wanting a single player game in an online setting, for being anti-social, and being 'different'.
The soloist commonly (not always) feels like he or she is independent of others, does not have to concern himself with following the egoistic commands of some co-dependent leader wannabe, and does not have to worry overly about anyone else associated with him doing something stupid or foolish.
Generally however the soloist dies much more often than he would with several other players working cooperatively, makes less coin and gains less experience more slowly than grouped players, and normally cannot survive many challenges that a group might approach with confidence.
Cooperative play is not co-dependency and self-reliance is only a good thing when it is also not foolish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Like many others, I will have an Alt that I use to maximize opportunities in other settlements, maybe gather, maybe craft, etc... Not sure that qualifies as "solo play' but I never said that I would play solo. Whatever that actually is?Okay I'll take a stabbity-stab-stab-stab at it.
'Soloing' is adventuring alone in an online world.
While crafting, marketing, playing the market is not usually considered 'soloing' per se, those are often performed in a solo fashion. That is, it is done without a need or desire to be 'grouped' with other players.
The soloist is often berated for 'wanting a single player game in an online setting, for being anti-social, and being 'different'.
The soloist commonly (not always) feels like he or she is independent of others, does not have to concern himself with following the egoistic commands of some co-dependent leader wannabe, and does not have to worry overly about anyone else associated with him doing something stupid or foolish.
Generally however the soloist dies much more often than he would with several other players working cooperatively, makes less coin and gains less experience more slowly than grouped players, and normally cannot survive many challenges that a group might approach with confidence.
Cooperative play is not co-dependency and self-reliance is only a good thing when it is also not foolish.
Ok, thank you for that take on "solo play". I think that I can agree with most, if not all, of it. Especially about the solo road being (hehe I wrote Being) more difficult.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, thank you for that take on "solo play". I think that I can agree with most, if not all, of it. Especially about the solo road being (hehe I wrote Being) more difficult.How was this dramatically different from what I said, on the first page?
"Going Alone" might be relatively safe or very dangerous, depending on what your activities are. Also, going alone might also be less efficient than using a division of labor approach.
I guess it is a matter of who says it and not so much, what was said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To clear up our terms a bit, the people most vulnerable to direct attacks by bandits will be gatherers, solo adventurers, and freight haulers (muleskinners, teamsters, etc.). Mercantile, perhaps, but not necessarily merchants. Brokers and crafters who stay in town and don't haul goods through the wilderness will be relatively safe.
"Don't go alone" is advice for those who will spend major portions of their careers on the road, especially if they choose not to train many combat skills. If NPC guards are available, then even dedicated solo travelers without martial prowess will be able to bring some muscle along. If NPC guards are not available, then "don't go alone" tactics will require a little compromise in the definition of "solo" play, or the acceptance of greater risk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Further, while basic fighting skills will not be as versatile they can be comparably effective. So if a dozen peaceful merchants are jumped along the wayside by Bluddwolf's half dozen bandits they should be able to give them a pretty decent thumping for their trouble.
Maybe so. There's a lot to be said for a coordinated first strike, especially if surprise and/or sneak attack are involved. If the bandits offer SAD, then 6 trained bandits vs. 12 minimally combat-trained haulers sounds like an interesting fight. Maybe we'll get a chance to simulate it in the arena later this year.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your definition of "solo" includes interactions of all kinds with all kinds of players and npcs. Yet you will maintain a "loner type persona".
I get that. That is basically what my definition of solo is also.
Can you see that I agree, also, with your definition of solo play?
1. Assuming you remain in one location, you would have to purchase the raw materials from one vendor; refine them yourself or with another person; then craft the items, again either yourself or have that sent out as well; finally, bring the finished items to market.
Potentially paying three other people for their efforts, before you get a finished product to place on market. Then there would likely be a cost associated with placing item on market.
I would find this a difficult model to call "solo" because you would eventually develop a steady relationship with one of the three vendors (gatherer, refiner or crafter) or perhaps even with the buyer.
2. Assuming you don't leave town and you don't deal with any other party, then you are playing the markets like a day trader, and not really a "merchant". More of a commodities broker, but I may be using the wrong term.
Now this, made me feel like you were inferring that a merchant could not play solo. That it would be too difficult. That it was not even a merchant that a person would be playing if he stayed in town. That playing that way was really very different than how you will play your monk. Really it seems basically the same to me except one PC will be moving around a lot and the other would be stationary.
To paraphrase another: Your "packaging" was terrible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your description was more appropriate of a broker. A broker does not make what he sells. He does not transport what he sells. Sometimes, he does not even physically possess what he sells.
If you had said, I plan to be a broker and never set foot out of a settlement, there would not have been any misunderstanding of terms.
One word of caution, as it relates to your model, Ryan Dancey did make a passing comment that you have to be in the market place to use the auction house. That might mean that you will have to travel from one market to another in order to actually purchase goods, and then transport them to another location to sell them.
Just don't be too disappointed if the auction market is not as automated as in EVE, where you can buy and sell commodities by using contracts and not having to physically possess the items first.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf
Sigh. Maybe you should look up the definition of broker. It is not even a synonym of merchant nor is the reverse.
A merchant is a person that buys goods and sells them. He can also craft and sell. There will always be ways to get materials and make gold. There will always be people selling things below the local market value to make it quick.
There will always be a time, later, to sell those items at a profit. Whether it is on the AH or just a PC to PC trade it is still merchant activity, It can be with or without contracts.
Brokers arrange things between two or more parties. That can also be merchant activity if there is profit I suppose. It may be just another way to make some gold. It is different than buying goods and selling them yourself for your own profit.
I plan to do anything that can make a profit (no cyber sex) whether it is AH, person to person trading, money lending, refining, crafting, even brokering possibly.
What ever the limits that are endured by staying in one town, a clever merchant can turn them to his advantage.
I have no expectations of a market like EVE as I have never played it. I have no expectations at all, except that whatever the difficulties are, there will be opportunities for those with eyes and ears.