A rogue with a humanoid shapeshifter bane dagger stabs a werewolf with DR 10/silver for 4 points of weapon damage and 10 points of bane bonus damage. How much damage does the werewolf take? Only 4 because neither the weapon damage or bane damage is silver? Or 10 because the bane damage ignores DR? Probably the former, but it does seem a little odd that the bane damage wouldn't bypass DR.
Bane does not ignore damage reduction. It just increases the damage a weapon does against certain targets.
In this case, the werewolf takes 4 damage.
A rogue with a humanoid shapeshifter bane dagger stabs a werewolf with DR 10/silver for 4 points of weapon damage and 10 points of bane bonus damage. How much damage does the werewolf take?
Bane: "Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe."
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): "Attacks from weapons that are not of the correct type or made of the correct material have their damage reduced, although a high enhancement bonus can overcome some forms of damage reduction.
The rogue deals 14 points of piercing damage with his attack. 10 points of that damage is reduced because the dagger is not silvered. (or mithral, or +3, etc.)
The extra damage is not another type of damage. The bonus dice are not multiplied on a crit, but they're still part of the same application of damage.
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He takes all of it because the weapon counts as +3 which overcomes DR/silver and there is no problem :)
Bane: "Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe."
Since it must be +1 already it is now +3.
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does
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They take all the damage. A +1 humanoid shapeshifter bane weapon has a +3 enhancement bonus to attacks and damage vs. shapeshifters. At +3, a weapon can ignore DR/Cold Iron and DR/Silver. This is listed under the damage reduction special ability.
If it were a +1 construct bane dagger, it would not be able to overcome a golem's DR/Adamantine. You'd total up the damage, then apply the DR. If no damage gets through, that's tough. The bane portion of the damage doesn't automatically bypass DR.
Chris has the right of it. Damage Reduction there's a handy table on the other side of that link that shows what enhancement bonuses can overcome various types of DR.
A +3 or better enhancement bonus bypasses silver/cold-iron, so your +1 shapeshifter bane weapon will fully hurt a werewolf.
edit: ninjas everywhere!
Well, OK. Yes. In this case the DR is bypassed, as it counts as a +3 weapon, and +3 weapons overcome silver-based DR. However, if it were some other material besides silver (or cold iron), then only 4 points of damage would get through.
(Likewise, +4 bane weapons of the appropriate type can overcome DR/Epic.)
So to answer the OP's question, the werewolf would take 14 damage.
Well, OK. Yes. In this case the DR is bypassed, as it counts as a +3 weapon, and +3 weapons overcome silver-based DR. However, if it were some other material besides silver (or cold iron), then only 4 points of damage would get through.
(Likewise, +4 bane weapons of the appropriate type can overcome DR/Epic.)
Is this an actual rule or conjecturing? I doubt it comes up often because few monsters have DR/Epic, and even more rarely do groups often play at high enough levels where this comes up, but I hadn't considered it before. Pathfinder doesn't currently have epic level rules, so we can make the assumption that +6 weapon is epic based on 3.5 but Pathfinder currently doesn't allow for weapons to normally be above a +5. Of course, +5 bane weapons, or a furious weapon, etc would function effectively as a +7 when wielded under the appropriate conditions and bypass epic? This make sense and I like it, but I'm not sure if this is intended or not.
Excellent clarification. Thanks all!
Is this an actual rule or conjecturing? I doubt it comes up often because few monsters have DR/Epic, and even more rarely do groups often play at high enough levels where this comes up, but I hadn't considered it before. Pathfinder doesn't currently have epic level rules, so we can make the assumption that +6 weapon is epic based on 3.5 but Pathfinder currently doesn't allow for weapons to normally be above a +5. Of course, +5 bane weapons, or a furious weapon, etc would function effectively as a +7 when wielded under the appropriate conditions and bypass epic? This make sense and I like it, but I'm not sure if this is intended or not.Well, OK. Yes. In this case the DR is bypassed, as it counts as a +3 weapon, and +3 weapons overcome silver-based DR. However, if it were some other material besides silver (or cold iron), then only 4 points of damage would get through.
(Likewise, +4 bane weapons of the appropriate type can overcome DR/Epic.)
Well, I believed there was a developer ruling stating that it did. But I could only find a ruling stating it doesn't. It would make some sense, however, if it did work as there is currently no other way to overcome DR/Epic.
Which should mean that, if a +4 bane weapon can't overcome DR/Epic, then a +1 bane weapon shouldn't automatically overcome DR/silver, either, as it isn't actually a +3 weapon.
Question would the sneak attack dmg bypass the DR?
Question would the sneak attack dmg bypass the DR?
No. Sneak Attack damage is added to the weapons base damage, its not separate. Developer quote from Jason Bulmahn
Thanks
Weapon damage, sneak attack, other damage bonuses like from power attack all get added into one lump then compared to the DR.
If we're still talking about a +1 shapeshifter bane weapon vs a werewolf with DR 10/silver and you did 4 weapon damage, 10 "bane" damage, and 8 sneak attack - that'd be a lump of 22 damage compared against the DR. In this case, the DR would be bypassed and all 22 would get through. If the weapon weren't bane or silver, only 12 would get through.
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Question would the sneak attack dmg bypass the DR?
Sneak attack damage is the same kind of damage done by the weapon. So a scimitar sneak attack would be slashing damage, a rapier would do piercing damage, sneak damage from a +2 weapon will be counted as damage from a +2 weapon and sneak damage from a silvered weapon would count as silver damage.
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Is this an actual rule or conjecturing? I doubt it comes up often because few monsters have DR/Epic, and even more rarely do groups often play at high enough levels where this comes up, but I hadn't considered it before. Pathfinder doesn't currently have epic level rules, so we can make the assumption that +6 weapon is epic based on 3.5 but Pathfinder currently doesn't allow for weapons to normally be above a +5. Of course, +5 bane weapons, or a furious weapon, etc would function effectively as a +7 when wielded under the appropriate conditions and bypass epic? This make sense and I like it, but I'm not sure if this is intended or not.Well, OK. Yes. In this case the DR is bypassed, as it counts as a +3 weapon, and +3 weapons overcome silver-based DR. However, if it were some other material besides silver (or cold iron), then only 4 points of damage would get through.
(Likewise, +4 bane weapons of the appropriate type can overcome DR/Epic.)
Well, I believed there was a developer ruling stating that it did. But I could only find a ruling stating it doesn't. It would make some sense, however, if it did work as there is currently no other way to overcome DR/Epic.
Which should mean that, if a +4 bane weapon can't overcome DR/Epic, then a +1 bane weapon shouldn't automatically overcome DR/silver, either, as it isn't actually a +3 weapon.
There are a few artifact weapons that do epic damage against selected targets in the APs.
It think that for now a artifact weapon is the only way to bypass epic damage reduction....
And being a paladin.
Hello everyone. The answer for the epic damage reduction is in the FAQ.
Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?
For the enhancement bonus limitation, it depends on the specific effect or ability that's altering the weapon.Bane: This allows the weapon to exceed the +5 limit, but only against the designated creature type. For example, a +5 dragon-bane longsword is normally a +5 weapon, but has a +7 enhancement bonus against dragons and deals +2d6 points of damage against dragons.
Paladin: The divine bond ability says "These [enhancement] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5." That means if a paladin has a +5 longsword, she can't use her divine bond to increate the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher (but she could use her bonuses to add abilities such as flaming to the weapon).
The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
My 2cp
+1 for the "full damage" because +3 >= "silver" per the chart linked above.
Regarding the Epic DR: I have a feeling that the +6 or greater = epic is a possible ret con target as I think it was likely a carry over from 3.5 with no changes. Hopefully we'll see more on Epic DR in the Mythic Rules.
Until and unless it is changed though, technically by RAW a +4 Bane weapon will breach Epic DR and a paladin (or other attacker) who can ignore all DR can also breach Epic DR (or using an Epic weapon or being a creature with Epic DR, of course.)
-TimD
@TimD : you also forgot the barbarian with a +4 furious weapon, while raging (so, at the level you acquire such an item/encounter monster with DR/epic, automatic for a barbarian).
Dal Selpher
Thanks that how I'd think it would have worked. It's how it worked in 3.5.
one more quick question would an adamantine non magical weapon by pass the werewolf's DR?
No.
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Hello everyone. The answer for the epic damage reduction is in the FAQ.
Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?
For the enhancement bonus limitation, it depends on the specific effect or ability that's altering the weapon.Bane: This allows the weapon to exceed the +5 limit, but only against the designated creature type. For example, a +5 dragon-bane longsword is normally a +5 weapon, but has a +7 enhancement bonus against dragons and deals +2d6 points of damage against dragons.
Paladin: The divine bond ability says "These [enhancement] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5." That means if a paladin has a +5 longsword, she can't use her divine bond to increate the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher (but she could use her bonuses to add abilities such as flaming to the weapon).
The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.My 2cp
The paladin smite evil ability say "Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess."
That is what my comment about the paladin meant.
Yeah, I know.
That is one of the way to pass RD, the others being : having the correct weapon, having a weapon with enough +X (either naturally or Divine Bond [both limited to +5 weapon], with Bane or with Furious [not limited by +5]), or for some DR, having the correct weapon.