Technically there is another solution for magical darkness (Deeper Darkness), Dispel Magic.
But this spell is becoming a bane for me of late. We had it in our 3-4 subtier game over the weekend and no one could counter it.
So it appears that Heightened Continual Flame (HCF) from a Cleric is the only option that beats Deeper Darkness (DD) completely?
You can bring HCF into an area of DD and extinguish it, but DD cannot do the same to HCF because it is a lower spell level, correct?
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So it appears that Heightened Continual Flame (HCF) from a Cleric is the only option that beats Deeper Darkness (DD) completely?
If it's heightened, it doesn't matter whether it's a cleric or wizard version. Just needs to be of higher level than DD.
You can bring HCF into an area of DD and extinguish it,
No.
Bringing a light source and a darkness effect into each other's areas never extinguishes either of them. One or both of them might be suppressed while the areas continue to overlap, but neither will EVER be extinguished just by being brought together.For a light or darkness spell to dispel its opposite, it must be cast specifically for that purpose, which requires casting the second of the two onto the same target that the first is already affecting. Given that these spells' range tends to be "touch", this is usually impractical for either side.
If it's heightened, it doesn't matter whether it's a cleric or wizard version. Just needs to be of higher level than DD.
Yeah, I realize that now. When I wrote my post, I had thought Heighten Spell was good for only one spell level, and since the Wizard/Sorcerer version is only 2nd level, I assumed it was not enough and therefore you would need the Cleric version of Continual Flame to be heightened. But now I realize you can heighten spells up to any level (obviously it would take up a spell slot of that level).
No.
Bringing a light source and a darkness effect into each other's areas never extinguishes either of them. One or both of them might be suppressed while the areas continue to overlap, but neither will EVER be extinguished just by being brought together.For a light or darkness spell to dispel its opposite, it must be cast specifically for that purpose, which requires casting the second of the two onto the same target that the first is already affecting. Given that these spells' range tends to be "touch", this is usually impractical for either side.
Sorry, extinguish was a bad choice of a word, I meant to cover up (not cancel) DD. But yes, suppression would be the best word I was looking for.
But is there a way to get a HCF besides hopefully having a Cleric in the party who has the feat? Are you able to purchase a scroll with a metamagic feat on it (assuming you have the correct Fame)? I thought I remembered reading you can't on another thread, but I am not sure now.
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Nope, no metamagic scrolls/NPC castings. So for HCF, it'll have to come from a PC.
If you're not willing to chance that (or to do it yourself), the "best" solution is to carry both an oil of daylight and (in case of unfavorable interpretation of daylight's mutual-negation clause) a potion of darkvision.
That's what I thought, thanks.
And yes, that's what I do, I carry both (Oil of Daylight and Potion of Darkvision), but I am looking for a more permanent solution. It gets expensive replacing those, especially Daylight.
Almost have debated on getting a wand of Daylight.
Well, Blind-fight would be better than nothing, but still only half a solution as I would still need to find the opponents. Also, blind-fight wouldn’t help from ranged as you wouldn’t see what you are fighting at, correct (needing a solution for my Alchemist as much as my Ranger)?
Daylight 1/day is an improvement, but how much is that? And again, 1/day is still not as permanent as I would like.
I hate to sound negative-Nancy, but my last three scenarios I’ve had Deeper Darkness put up, and two of them we dealt with it but it was brought up again 3+ times (in each scenario).
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Well, Blind-fight would be better than nothing, but still only half a solution as I would still need to find the opponents. Also, blind-fight wouldn’t help from ranged as you wouldn’t see what you are fighting at, correct (needing a solution for my Alchemist as much as my Ranger)?
Yeah, that's a problem. :/
Daylight 1/day is an improvement, but how much is that? And again, 1/day is still not as permanent as I would like.
I hate to sound negative-Nancy, but my last three scenarios I’ve had Deeper Darkness put up, and two of them we dealt with it but it was brought up again 3+ times (in each scenario).
Er, do you mean to say that while you had daylight active, the baddies put up another DD and overpowered it? Because if so, well, there's nothing in the game that can overcome a GM messing up the darkness-never-stacks rule.
The only real answer is to nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Ban deeper darkness. :)
Hehe, nice. :)
Haven’t seen that one in awhile, need to revisit it again.
Er, do you mean to say that while you had daylight active, the baddies put up another DD and overpowered it? Because if so, well, there's nothing in the game that can overcome a GM messing up the darkness-never-stacks rule.
Actually, it wasn’t that he was even stacking them, but the GM ran it that they both cancel each other out. For example, the Deeper Darkness went up, we smashed a Daylight inside of it so it canceled out the DD. Then the opponents put another DD up, and so on.
Yes, I realize now how he ran it was incorrect, however, I do want to say he is an excellent GM. I’m not sure if it was because he made a mistake or just had them cancel each other out for simplicity’s sake. You have to admit, having a DD and Daylight up and moving around would make the combat quite confusing.
“Wait, the DD stops there and this is where the Daylight picks up.” Next turn, we need to figure out again (if the targets move).
He is actually an excellent GM. And at the time, I didn’t know the darkness rules well enough to contest it, so just let it go. It seemed fair enough that each one canceled each other out since they were the same spell level.
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Blind-fight would be your only "permanent" solution.
I believe there's also a wayfinder variant that has a 1/day daylight, so that would probably help.
Correct, that would be the "Dayfinder". I believe it costs 10pp.
So, not having paid perfect attention, evidently my wizard's Heightened Continual Flame (3rd level spell) doesn't stop a Deeper Darkness... but it would stop a Darkness. Important to know. Will have to wait a couple of levels until he can really "break" Deeper Darkness, then.
I hate to sound negative-Nancy, but my last three scenarios I’ve had Deeper Darkness put up, and two of them we dealt with it but it was brought up again 3+ times (in each scenario).
Without knowing what was going on, was it possible that the 2nd DD was used to counter/dispel the Daylight? I would think that targeting the source of a Daylight spell would be relatively easy (its glowing BRIGHTLY). If that were the case, and the Daylight was not used to counter/dispel the first DD, then by dispelling the Daylight, the first DD would come back into play.
I am only saying that it is possible, not that this is what happened.
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Without knowing what was going on, was it possible that the 2nd DD was used to counter/dispel the Daylight? I would think that targeting the source of a Daylight spell would be relatively easy (its glowing BRIGHTLY). If that were the case, and the Daylight was not used to counter/dispel the first DD, then by dispelling the Daylight, the first DD would come back into play.
I am only saying that it is possible, not that this is what happened.
It's a possibility, but given the range of "touch", it seems unlikely. ;)
David,
Mistakes happen. You put excellent in quotes as if he isn't an excellent GM due to making the mistake on how darkness works. It happens.
I am guessing he didn't make the change to make it more simple, but just because how darkness works IS confusing and he wasn't certain, but I will point it out to him the next time I see him.
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I'm putting excellent in quotes because I've seen four and five star GMs make mechanical mistakes I could rattle off in my sleep. And I'm a one star. To be fair, I'm also a PhD candidate and have a good memory. But still. Four and five star GMs that get grapple wrong? Darkness? Acrobatics? Bull rush? Pattern spells? I could go on. I've also seen four and five star GMs with whom all "mistakes" are conveniently in the favor of the NPCs. If they were truly stochastic, it would be about 50/50.
So what's your point exactly? That 4 and 5 star GMs make mistakes? Sure they do. Just like there are 1 and 2 star GMs that are awesome and rarely make a mistake.
Where I have a lot of respect for GMs with a lot of stars, it's mainly because of the time and dedication they've put into Society to run. And if they know the rules really well, that's an added bonus.