I was looking over the various animal shaman archetypes, and they seem to just be...better than Druids. They get everything a Druid does, plus some extra benefits (totem aspects starting at level 2, wild empathy as a full-round action with specific animal types) and the only thing they lose out on is a slight nerfing of Wild Shape, which is compensated for by being able to Wild Shape into their animal type at +2 druid level.
I'm not really seeing any drawback to going Shaman instead of Druid. Am I missing something? Is there any reason to go Druid?
Loss of venom immunity as well.
Hmm...true, but being able to get a "choose your own buff" at level 2 without actually transforming is pretty sweet.
I think, generally, Shamans are worse than normal Druids, except for the Saurian Shaman.
Their Wild Shape is not "slightly nerfed" it is significantly nerfed. You do not get it at all until level 6. Then, you get some minor benefits to a tiny handful of mostly crappy forms from 6th-9th, and after that, you operate strictly under penalty.
Now, the Summoning can be pretty good for some types (boars still suck, for example, but the cat and bird ones can summon some decent stuff), and the totem transformation is "ok," but that's really their only serious benefit.
Like I said, the one exception to this is the Saurian Shaman. There are a wide enough variety of dinosaurs to cover every role you could want to shift into or summon--there are flying dinosaurs, a wide range of sizes to choose from (all the way up to Huge--most shamans lack a Huge animal that fits their theme), some good scout forms, utility with poison and other weird special abilities--dinosaurs get it all.
Saurian Shamans are the only ones I'd consider better than a base Druid. Otherwise, I'd personally avoid the Shamans like the plague.
The Giant template adder covers huge for most other shaman types as well though.
I think you guys are forgetting about Totem Transformation. Yes, you wait 2 levels for Wild Shape, but you've got a free +2AC (for most shaman types), natural weapon, or a variety of other buffs. Granted, it only lasts for minutes per level rather than hours, but that's enough for combat efficiency.
The Giant template adder covers huge for most other shaman types as well though.
You can't polymorph into templated forms, so most shaman types have no Huge form.
I think you guys are forgetting about Totem Transformation. Yes, you wait 2 levels for Wild Shape, but you've got a free +2AC (for most shaman types), natural weapon, or a variety of other buffs. Granted, it only lasts for minutes per level rather than hours, but that's enough for combat efficiency.
Who cares? Honestly, that seems like a joke to me--like a "sorry we screwed your Wild Shape progression, so take this crap instead," kind of thing. Barkskin is giving you a Natural Armor bonus pretty early anyway. You can get racial natural weapons before 2nd, or actually good natural weapons at 4th level with a normal druid Wild Shaping, so that's not impressive. Unless you're playing the game strictly from 1st to 3rd, I can't see any benefit to having Totem Transformation over unpenalized Wildshaping at 4th.
Free barkskin without having to use a spell slot seems well worth it, IMO. Wild Shape is nice and all, but it's not the be-all end-all of Druidness.
Free barkskin without having to use a spell slot seems well worth it, IMO.
I don't really think it is, because it will become obsolete as soon as you get Wild Shape, whereas Barkskin will not. Seriously, does any druid spend significant time not wild shaped after level 5 (or 7 for Shamans) when they get Natural Spell? Plus, Barkskin lasts literally 10 times longer.
Wild Shape is nice and all, but it's not the be-all end-all of Druidness.
I agree, and some Shamans can make great Summon-focused Druids.
But I'd wager most Druids want to wild-shape, and those who do will find Shamans (again, excepting Saurian Shamans) severely lacking. Heck, most non-wild-shape focused Druids still spend most of their time casting from animal form with natural spell because being in a different form generally has nothing but upside.
The downside for anyone but the saurian shaman is that you loose a lot of versatility and power with the loss of shapeshifting levels. Idealy you'd be able to turn into a huge cat, but there aren't any, so you're out of luck.
Menhir Savant is the true "better than a Druid" Druid.
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Menhir Savant loses Woodland Stride though, which means sometimes your dire tiger can't charge-pounce-rake. It's an even trade I think, but then difficult terrain tends to play a large role in my group.
Shamans... the problem with Totemic Transformation is that it takes a Standard Action, and the duration is too short to have it on before combat breaks out unless you had advance warning. It's attacks aren't all that special (druids get scimitars) and the defenses aren't anything special either (unlike Barkskin, doesn't carry over into Wildshape).
Delayed wildshape is really painful, because wildshape is such a big part of any druid build. One of my players is not taking Weapon Finesse because it won't be any good in wildshape (his wildshape Str will be >= Dex), but he's got a lousy to-hit for the first five levels now.
Taking Natural Spell at level 7 is also annoying, because that's when you want to take Leadership; and at level 9 you can start taking feats requiring BAB +6. Level 5 is the least awkward moment to take Natural Spell, I think.
Doesn't mean the shaman is hopeless; Totemic Summons is a legitimately powerful ability, especially for the Saurian shaman. And the Saurian shaman gets a major boost with Wildshape at level 6, going straight to the Huge dinosaur forms.
But don't overestimate the shaman.
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With my first read of Shamen, I too thought the class delayed access to Wild Shape to level 6. Reading the class closely though I believe that, while that was likely the intent of the writer, by RAW it does not. Maybe there have been some official clarifications to the archetype that I am not aware of.
By my reading a Shamen gains wild shape like an "normal" druid at 4th and uses it normally at 5th. At 6th his Shamen abilities override that power and suddenly he is shifting as an 8th level druid in into his totem form but only as a 4th level druid into any other form. And yes, I know that means his ability to shift into many forms takes a step backward from level 5 to level 6.
Nope. You don't shift at all until 6th level. The authors confirmed that.
In this case I'm glad that the author of the druid shaman archetypes was as incompetent in writing up the wildshape changes as he was in conceiving them, which leaves it as RAW for shaman druids to be able to wildshape at level 4. I suppose they'll eventually get an errata out, but until they do I'll keep playing the way we have been. And maybe even after since I think that's one of the stupidest rules I've encountered, and that's saying something.
On the subject of whether shamans are "better than druids" well, I think that depends entirely on what sort of druid you want to play. They're both really solid characters that can do just about anything anyone wants to do in the game. If you like wildshaping into all sorts of badass dinosaurs, then the saurian shaman is probably the best choice, but if you want to focus on spellcasting and overall versatility, then the normal druid is probably best.
If I had to really press I'd say that for many players' styles the saurian or lion shaman is slightly better in combat at mid levels than a "standard" druid, but if you ever get to the very highest levels, you'll start to miss the things you gave up to be a shaman.
Menhir Savant is not just good for caster druids, it's good for any druid. The +1 CL thing is great, sure. But so is the ability to detect ~1/4 the freaking bestiary, at will. And the ability to unerringly teleport the party across the earth to anywhere plants grow (cripes, even the ocean has plants!) a stupidly large amount of times per day w/o spending spells at the same level the wizard can (erringly) teleport the party like 3 times per day, tops. And go ethereal to walk through walls and such six whole levels before Monk gets the similar Empty Body class feature. That stuff is useful to anyone, though probably most useful to a scouting/sneaky druid.
Menhir Savant loses Woodland Stride though, which means sometimes your dire tiger can't charge-pounce-rake. It's an even trade I think, but then difficult terrain tends to play a large role in my group.
I guess it depends on your game? I don't see much difficult terrain in my games, and nearly all of it is from spells, which Woodland Stride wouldn't help with either. Woodland Stride doesn't even help with most non-magical rough terrain, it's very very narrow in benefit.
Also, Feather Step is a 1st level spell and cheap wand, and Mass Feather Step is a 3rd level group spell w/ good duration. So yeah, I've never once felt regret for not having woodland stride...
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Why would a normal druid be a better Carr than any of the Shaman types? Shamans don't give up any spellcasting.
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I actually enjoy the Eagle Shaman archetype. I dont care much for wildshape and am more of the caster type so it worked greatly for me. The only time i wild shape is to become a creature with fly speed in order for me to perform aerial assaults with spells and when out of spells to dive bomb safely. When it comes to Summoning the Eagle is best since they have some thing to summon at all levels of the spell from 1 to 9 thanks to added templates. The Saurian is cool dont get me wrong but they dont get there 1st summoned creature until 2nd spell level. Also i primarily use my animal companion for scouting and dont like risking the poor thing. The amount of fights my parties have avoided and prepared for were all thanks to the scouting ability of my eagle are countless. The only time i do have it fight though is 1ce it gets Flyby Attack so i dont have to risk its life.
The thing about relying on Feather Step is that it requires a spell slot and casting time.
Well, wand alleviates the slot, not that it's a high level slot anyway. Pearl of Power helps, too.
Wasting a combat round is somewhat of a downer, but unless you're encountering rough terrain a lot, it's not going to add up too much. And if there is difficult terrain involved, there's a good chance there will be a delay before either side can reach melee anyway.
In any case, this is discussing feather step as an alternative to woodland stride, which becomes available at a higher level and is very narrow in which circumstances/environments it actually applies.
Nice of them to confirm their intent, but without errata that does not change the RAW. In my home game I would enforce this, but in PFS I cannot.
RAW has two reasonable interpretations: the 6th level to shapeshift at all one being the MORE reasonable one. When forced between two legitimate interpretations you can't ignore clarifications.
Hm. Fire elementals can talk, can't they?
lazar, there's the wild speech shape from ultimate magic
Benefit: When using wild shape to take the form in which you cannot speak (such as an animal), you are able to speak normally in any language you know.
- lets you talk, activate items, etc. The only confusing thing on it is it lets you talk to critters you wildshape into (which you can already do, so its a little like prone shooter)
Hm. Fire elementals can talk, can't they?
Yes, they have a listed language (Ignan).
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It's mostly animals and plants that have trouble talking; and any plant with languages listed in the bestiary entry should be fair game.
But yeah, I've been trying to find more elegant ways to talk in wildshape, other than Wild Speech. A whole feat just seems so expensive. I'm pondering the benefits of taking some oddball sign language (together with party members), or Extra Traits to get Two-World Magic for Ghost Sound. (The "Vorlon" approach.)
Why would a normal druid be a better Carr than any of the Shaman types? Shamans don't give up any spellcasting.Assuming Carr means something like caster, I'd say because you delay the elemental body forms. Especially the small air elemental form is just perfect for a caster character.
I was typing on a smartphone...ugh, I didn't even noticed that it auto-corrected me on that one. :(
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Since this is a discussion of shamans in Pathfinder, I'd be remiss if I didn't offer up the actual Shaman class from Kobold Press as an alternative.
The shaman is a nature and spirit-focused spontaneous caster, with improved wildshape powers, totem secrets and an animal spirit guide.
I'd humbly suggest that the Shaman is a very good alternative to playing a standard druid class with a totem shaman archetype for those seeking a cool and viable shaman to play in Pathfinder :)
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I actually enjoy the Eagle Shaman archetype. I dont care much for wildshape and am more of the caster type so it worked greatly for me. The only time i wild shape is to become a creature with fly speed in order for me to perform aerial assaults with spells and when out of spells to dive bomb safely. When it comes to Summoning the Eagle is best since they have some thing to summon at all levels of the spell from 1 to 9 thanks to added templates. The Saurian is cool dont get me wrong but they dont get there 1st summoned creature until 2nd spell level. Also i primarily use my animal companion for scouting and dont like risking the poor thing. The amount of fights my parties have avoided and prepared for were all thanks to the scouting ability of my eagle are countless. The only time i do have it fight though is 1ce it gets Flyby Attack so i dont have to risk its life.
Out of curiosity, have you tried the Sky Druid? It sounds like it fills a similar niche, so I'm wondering how the two compare.
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I actually enjoy the Eagle Shaman archetype. I dont care much for wildshape and am more of the caster type so it worked greatly for me. The only time i wild shape is to become a creature with fly speed in order for me to perform aerial assaults with spells and when out of spells to dive bomb safely. When it comes to Summoning the Eagle is best since they have some thing to summon at all levels of the spell from 1 to 9 thanks to added templates. The Saurian is cool dont get me wrong but they dont get there 1st summoned creature until 2nd spell level. Also i primarily use my animal companion for scouting and dont like risking the poor thing. The amount of fights my parties have avoided and prepared for were all thanks to the scouting ability of my eagle are countless. The only time i do have it fight though is 1ce it gets Flyby Attack so i dont have to risk its life.Out of curiosity, have you tried the Sky Druid? It sounds like it fills a similar niche, so I'm wondering how the two compare.
I dont think i have.
or Extra Traits to get Two-World Magic for Ghost Sound. (The "Vorlon" approach.)
Taking that as a trait (preferably w/o having to spend a feat on additional traits at all) for ghost sound is what I usually suggest. Not too costly, and available from...before you even have wild shape.
My caster Druid practically lived as an Air Elemental. I can't imagine giving that up or even delaying it.