Goblin Squad Member
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These complicated questions come out of a discussion we (Dario, Hobs, Greedalox, and Myself) had last night on a TS server we shared.
1. When a bandit company SADS or Defeats a Caravan, how does that bandits get their loot away from the site?
If the bandits attacked, killing all, do they capture and then use the caravan's wagons, mules, horses?
If the bandits got the merchant to accept a SAD offer, do the bandits have to have their own means to transport the loot away? Can they include in the accpeted offer some of the merchant's transportation, obviously factoring in that value into the SAD?
Or, in both cases, do the bandits either walk away with whatever they can carry and or bring their own wagons, mules, horses to carry off their loot?
2. Economic Question:
I think I understand the Dev Blog section "The Most Dangerous Game" when it says that bandits are removing some of the resouces before they reach the market, and that lowers supplies, driving the prices up so that the merchants still make a decent profit. Yeah, I get supply and demand.
What are the bandits doing with it?
If bandits are taking the same resources to market, then there is little market impact on the supply side. All it will mean is that there is an additional seller. Yes, more sellers typically means lower prices for the consumer, but that typically remains within the 5% = or - range (based on my experience with markets in EVE).
Of course, the bandits may have their own crafters, who will convert some of the resouces they stole into the gear and items that they need, as bandits. A self sufficient operation is a primary goal for bandits, we don't steal to give other people our money unless we absoultely have to.
If loot were converted, artifically (resources and items do not go to market) into both coin and maintaining a hideout, then that would also remove the resources from the market.
Again, self sufficiency. If our looting covers our overhead + a small profit, that is the goal. If our looting covers our overhead, and nothing more, well at least we had fun doing it. If our looting is not covering our overhead, then we are in the wrong line of work.
These were just some questions and thoughts we had, what are your's?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess that it makes it more profitable for the bandits to offer a fair SAD, so that they DONT have to deal with handling the goods.
I expect it will also come down to what purpose the bandits are raiding the caravan. If they are doing it for another external party who want a particular good, or they themselves need a good to upgrade their hideout, I guess that bandits will need to bring their own wagons.
I'm interested in hearing a Dev answer the economic question...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm really hoping that horses/mules/donkeys are attackable objects and thus may end up dead in a conflict (also making them a great target to stop a caravan in its tracks). This effectively means that bandits would need horses etc, to carry the goods away. If goods were acquired as part of a SAD, negotiate the horses. If acquired via force, bring your own horseflesh along prior to a raid!
Per the economics question, potentially the bandits could be sub-contractors working for a particular company or settlement. They may be employed to steal specific resources for a specific purpose such as forging into arms and armor for an up and coming war, or simply to stockpile and starve an opposing settlement of the resource. Trade wars will be a huge part of PFO.
If the bandits are freelancers, I would expect them to sell the high and medium value items on the open market to cover costs and make a quick profit, and stockpile the other items in the hope that there is a sudden increase in demand and subsequent rise in price (perhaps brought on by their stealing the items). They then sell at a higher than usual price for a profit. If no increase in demand, dump the goods if need be, or sell at a minimal price on the market and remember not to request those via SAD again. Bandits will have some hand in establishing markets, or destabilising and taking advantage of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want a horse. I think Ill call him Trigger..... Yes good Trigger, catch up to that nasty evil merchant.
Seriously though, cant wait for pets, pack animals, and maybe even livestock (dont remember talk of this). Livestock would be awesome. I could graduate from bandit to rustler (I do love a good western).
The economics question is a good one. When you kill and rob a corpse, you get a couple of un-threaded items. Threaded items go with the victim, the rest goes poof and is taken out of the economy. So will it be similar if you kill everyone and rob a caravans wagons/carts? Or is it as Bludd supposes and we get can take off with everything as long as we have or can steal the transportation? If we can steal all, and its not for ourselves or a contract, how does it get removed from the economy or does it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I stated in our discussion, if a merchant's baggage (goods on a pack animal, in a wagon, etc.) suffers the same fate as his personal goods (the unthreaded items on his person), then unless he travels with really well skilled guards, no merchant in his right mind would turn down a SAD...he would loose far too much if killed.
Given this, I'm hoping goods on pack animals and in wagons are a bit more "persistent" than that. In UO, you could kill pack animals and (if I recall correctly) loot their packs. I'd rather see some mechanic where once their handler is killed, anyone in the vicinity can apply their animal handling skills to attempt to gain control of them, and thereby, the goods they carry.
Personal mounts may be handled differently, especially if they cost the kinds of cash that mounts cost in some games such as Rift. However, if most mounts are not specialized, high priced critters (in UO, horses were pretty easily bought or tamed and thus easily replaced), I think being able to steal someone's horsey after killing the rider would lead to a specialized form of bandits...the horse thief.
From:
And "Evil" Shall Inherit the World
7. It takes longer to setup and gather resources than to steal them after they have been gathered.
Stephen Cheney Goblinworks Game Designer
Mostly true, and a key part of the risk vs. reward that encourages you to try for the rare resources in dangerous territory precisely because if you do get them to market, they'll be worth more. Bandits that rob you will only take a fraction of what you had on you, destroying the rest, and have to balance their own risk vs. reward on properly identifying their targets and making sure they continue to have gatherers to fleece. To a certain extent this should reach a natural equilibrium; it's not going to be much more fun for bandits to sit in a bush all day hoping a high-value, low-defense target happens by. If an area becomes unprofitable to gather at due to banditry, gatherers will stop coming, the bandits will get bored and some of them will leave, and it will eventually become a risky but not hopeless place to gather again.
"Bandits that rob you will only take a fraction of what you had on you, destroying the rest"
Sounds a bit like looting a player husk to me.You get some but not all, No need for pack mules ect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A caravan without pack animals would just be wrong. Yes, the traveler flag will allow you to carry a bit more, but what merchant (especially from a role-play point of view) wants to be lugging his own goods? That's what beasts of burden or, at the very least, what porters are for. I admit, it throws another wrench into the looting mechanics, but it adds a level of realism and another whole range of possibilities, not only for what might be stolen, but for how much you can carry, for the need for more people playing guards, playing drovers, etc.
Pack mules, wagon's,and other means of mass transport are just 1 big backpack. You get a lucky dip and then you are done.
This way only a small part of the goods get to market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great topic!
As I am planning to be a merchant, I suppose that my take on this might be interesting. Of course, this is just the outlook of one merchant.
I hate that I will have to deal with bandits, but I suppose that it is inevitable. So, I can QQ or I can just consider it part of doing business.
I would much rather be on "friendly" business terms with 1 or 2 bandit groups on my regular routes. It sure beats defiance and death followed by total loss. =D
There is no doubt, in my mind, that I would much rather give you some gold when you SAD me than goods. Goods are bulky freight and the shipping costs have likely already been paid. With prices fluctuating between towns, goods are more difficult to value. Gold will have no volume, no weight, no nasty 3rd party liquidation problems. If you need goods, and we are on friendly "terms", I would likely be willing to bring you what you need on my next pass through. That would be in exchange for some toll waivers or something.
If I have to pay to use the road unmolested, then I will. I only would ask for a few things in return.
1. Reasonable SAD fees. Milk me slowly and you will get more in the long run.
2. Don't kill my guards or Myself if it is not needed. That would discourage the hell out of me.
3. I would expect you to keep your stretch of the highway clear of other bandits and reasonably clear of monsters.
4. Reciepts for donations to your "Not for Profit Charity Organization".
I need to write you off in my home base.
What do you think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes Bringslite,
You do understand the relationship. We would never rob you into starvation, or into giving up your business venture, that is the work of politicians or even greedier merchants.
And your points are well taken, and a part of our plan. However, there is one other aspect that you may not be aware of....which I have already eluded to.
You may also contract The UnNamed Company to not only, leave your caravans alone but we can also protect them, for a fee. Who better to protect a merchant from bandits, than bandits?
And then there is the next phase in building your merchant empire....
You may also contract The UnNamed Company to focus our efforts on other merchants who are harming you and your business.
.....wait....Don't say anything now....not here in public.....such dealings, if you wish to have them, are best to be kept discreet....
As you can see Bringslite, some of us have bought fully into GW's vision of meaningful player interaction and the real game is in the competition for growth and resources between the settlements. The backbone of the settlements will be the merchant / gatherers / crafters and all of the combat types that protect them or attack them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Of course you Bandittos will have to focus on the merchants that are hauling large amounts of bulky items. A merchant dealing only in high-end goods could probably move a few very expensive items with impunity. I am assuming that he would only carry high profit stuff that he could thread...
So, basically, bandits would only have to be dealt with until you became a merchant to the elite.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Though the topic has popped up briefly in other threads, what affect would roads have on movement? The traveler flag gives an increase to movement speed, but if roads are going to be meaningful, what bonuses do they bring to the game and to the likelihood of being waylaid by bandits?
If merchants are going to be limited to transporting only what they carry (i.e. no wagons, pack animals, etc.), then why wouldn't they gain their movement boost by donning the traveler flag and zip along cross country? Why take a road if it gives no bonuses and only increases the chance that bandits know where you're be passing? True, cross country may increase your chance of running into nasty monsters, but if you can outrun them with your zippy traveler's flag movement boost, that may still be safer than risking the roads.
Now, if merchants get to use pack animals and wagons, but these only travel well on roads, you start having to look at the trade-off of quantity of stock moved vs the risk of being stopped because bandits know the most likely routes of travel.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs the Short
Bandits will have opportunities over and over to nab the goods all along the production line. Gathering, moving raw goods to town, maybe moving same goods to next town after refining, then finally crafted goods moved to best place to sell. I think that bandits will make out fine all along the stages of a product's life. =D
I expect that, once things progress to the lvl that merchants can accumulate that much in goods and there are actually markets to go to and sell; banditry will become so popular that merchants will be forced to find lots of ways to minimize risk vs reward. If that means banding together, each man moving only what he can carry and still run, then things will get harder for the bandits for awhile. Then, the bandits will figure a way to catch the naughty merchants all over again.
Are ore/ingots/resources going to be so heavy and bulky and low value, that wagons are needed to make a profit?
How much will a valuable stack of 300 lvl mithril weigh? (enuf to make 2 swords say)
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Goblin Squad Member
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1st question: WTF was I for this "meeting?" I know you were not discussing my area of expertise, but still...I am offended LOL
back to topic at hand, @blingslite, yes, while we can't talk for everyone shady organization out there, we of those not to be named have a firm grasp of how to be profitable without destroying that which gives us profit. So fear not, tolls and donations will be reasonable.
As for the pack animals/carts ect, I fully hope/expect GW will insert something on this sort for a realistic and logical manner to address the issue of transportation of large quantities of merchandise. I would suspect that properly organized and ran groups will bring their own, or atleast plan for, how to move their newly acquired goods. Weather you bring horses to pull the cart you "acquired" or if you bring the whole kit to haul your share, either way, us bandits need to consider this when going shopping.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1st question: WTF was I for this "meeting?" I know you were not discussing my area of expertise, but still...I am offended LOL
I was surprised you were not around last night Milo... You were missed, and it was a good discussion.
It is actually my birthday tomorrow, so I'm not sure I will be online for DDO, at least not until later than usual.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm at that terrible point in life where I have to STOP full-time gaming and get a real person job.
Sad times.
Or you could be one of the lucky few who gets a job that lets them game at work. I had a buddy who ducked out of a meeting to go back to his desk for a raid. Of course, he worked in game design, so he called it research.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Of course you Bandittos will have to focus on the merchants that are hauling large amounts of bulky items. A merchant dealing only in high-end goods could probably move a few very expensive items with impunity. I am assuming that he would only carry high profit stuff that he could thread...
So, basically, bandits would only have to be dealt with until you became a merchant to the elite.
This seems to me to assume that the inconvenience of dying and having to travel again with goods of possibly highly variable value is lower than the inconvenience of forking over some gold in a SAD. Bandits don't only like trade goods, you know.
A simple toll fee could probably be worked out, and not shave off TOO much of the elite-only merchant's profit margin.|
Goblin Squad Member
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Of course you Bandittos will have to focus on the merchants that are hauling large amounts of bulky items. A merchant dealing only in high-end goods could probably move a few very expensive items with impunity. I am assuming that he would only carry high profit stuff that he could thread...
So, basically, bandits would only have to be dealt with until you became a merchant to the elite.
This seems to me to assume that the inconvenience of dying and having to travel again with goods of possibly highly variable value is lower than the inconvenience of forking over some gold in a SAD. Bandits don't only like trade goods, you know.
A simple toll fee could probably be worked out, and not shave off TOO much of the elite-only merchant's profit margin.
Ahhh. You assume that because GW is implimenting a system that allows for bandits to play that merchants should just roll over and give up a toll? LOL Not this merchant.
I have thought alot about it and come to a few conclusions:
1. There will be bandits, monsters, and serial killers. I am all good with that.
2. Lots of trader/transporters are going to get pinched. Cool for them.
3. I am going to use every trick I can find, learn, and steal to avoid paying a single silver noble to any bandits or any guards to protect me. My goal is to come back here in 3 years and gloat about how rich I am and that I never once paid a Toll. Unlikely but possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@bringslite,
You may not realize this, but many bandits won't offer a SAD unless they already know you are a weaker opponent. So by declining to pay the "toll", you are only garaunteeing that the bandits kill you and take all, and with no reputation loss for it.
How does that expression go? "Penny wise, dollar foolish"
If the bandits notice that you pose a moderate threat, they would likely not give up surprise to issue the SAD. But in order to be a moderate threat, you would have to have someone guarding you. That is a cost of time or money.
If the bandits notice you are a dangerous threat. They will likely let you pass without any SAD or attack. But that will cost you a lot in protection or devoted time by your friends.
The system is designed that no matter how you try to avoid the cost of being a merchant, you won't. Without risk your product will be so cheap, you will make no profit. You may not wish for you to bear the brunt of that cost, but you will certainly hope someone does.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@bringslite,
You may not realize this, but many bandits won't offer a SAD unless they already know you are a weaker opponent. So by declining to pay the "toll", you are only garaunteeing that the bandits kill you and take all, and with no reputation loss for it.
How does that expression go? "Penny wise, dollar foolish"
If the bandits notice that you pose a moderate threat, they would likely not give up surprise to issue the SAD. But in order to be a moderate threat, you would have to have someone guarding you. That is a cost of time or money.
If the bandits notice you are a dangerous threat. They will likely let you pass without any SAD or attack. But that will cost you a lot in protection or devoted time by your friends.
The system is designed that no matter how you try to avoid the cost of being a merchant, you won't. Without risk your product will be so cheap, you will make no profit. You may not wish for you to bear the brunt of that cost, but you will certainly hope someone does.
There is no need to travel with a flag flying. The map is only 9 miles long. Seems like anyone that kills a non flagged guy would suffer a penalty. There will be lots and lots of ways to get around nasty bandits. If that makes them sad then I will feeel bad all the way to market...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@bringslite
That is true that attacking a non-flagged PC will incur penalties and while you choose not to fly a flag, that doesn't stop a group of bandits from intercepting you and putting up a SAD. If I understand it correctly, weather you are flagged or not, declining a SAD gives the bandits full right to kill and loot you and your belongings without rep and alignment loss.
Now keep in mind, unless there ends up being lots and lots of bandit groups hiding out all over, operating at all hours, then there will be times when a merchant can travel, flagged or not, in peace without being confronted. Bandits do take breaks and days off. So once people get established and trade routes spring into existence, different routes will be safer than others. As a merchant, your profitability will improve the smarter you are about how/when you travel when you need to travel.
Also, remember that bandits are not all bad. They are a tool that can be used. Most bandits follow the coin. Offer enough, and they may allow you to travel safely while hindering your competition. Think of modern day corporations and businesses. They do all sorts of things to increase their profits, but they also know your can't make a buck without spending a buck. the key is to spend one to gain two.....
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no need to travel with a flag flying. The map is only 9 miles long. Seems like anyone that kills a non flagged guy would suffer a penalty. There will be lots and lots of ways to get around nasty bandits. If that makes them sad then I will feeel bad all the way to market...
The last thing I would want you to believe is that you would be completely safe, flagged or unflagged. You should also not think that the alignment or reputation system will prevent the UnNamed Company for going after an unprotected big haul. With the new Dev Blog on Assassins, we are willing to dip into evil from time to time. We have also been joined by some of my oldest friends, of which will not attach themselves to any settlement nor worry at all about low reputation...... Men well versed in the mantra of Open World PvP and particularly piracy of EvE Online.
You are never safe
Never carry what you are unwilling to lose
It is all about the gold
It is my greatest hope that we can bring this mantra to Pathfinder Online. PFO can only be great if it has that sense of danger, from the moment you log in and until the fifteen seconds or so you remain resident on the server when you log off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Milo and Bluddwolf Thank yo. I was remembering the Blog incorrectly. Dario pointed that out to me in another thread that I just saw.
@Just Bluddwolf I tremble in fear of the voracious appetite of The UnNamed Company. If you catch and kill me with my cargo threaded you will upset me to no end.... If you keep killing me for refusing SAD after SAD, I will have to report that as griefing I guess. If you catch me... =D
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Milo and Bluddwolf Thank yo. I was remembering the Blog incorrectly. Dario pointed that out to me in another thread that I just saw.
@Just Bluddwolf I tremble in fear of the voracious appetite of The UnNamed Company. If you catch and kill me with my cargo threaded you will upset me to no end.... If you keep killing me for refusing SAD after SAD, I will have to report that as griefing I guess. If you catch me... =D
It is my understanding of the system that you can only be killed once, or should I say, only need to be killed once to gain your full cargo.
You will also get a "Killed" flag, which is kind of a warning to others not to kill you again.
Now, if you accept the SAD, we could not then kill you for up to 20 minutes or face very severe reputation hits. That is something we would never do, but not because of the rep hit. We would not violate the SAD agreement, because we see it as a contract.
Now, as for your apparant definition of what is griefing, I'm not sure I understand your view. The way I look at it, and I believe I have the same view as the devs...
If you travel and refuse a SAD, we can kill you and take all of your cargo (cargo is non threaded, inventory items). You would then have nothing left for us to loot, so when you respawn and return to your body, we would be long gone.... Likely looking for our next target.
Now, you decide, I'll go back to my resource camp and get another caravan rolling. You pass by one of our hideouts, or perhaps the same one as before.... We hit you with another SAD.
Is this what you would consider griefing?
I personally would not think of it as so, but I'll explain...
1. We are offering you a way out, cheaply, with the SAD.
2. We want to establish that in our territory, you will be stopped if you are High or Moderate Reward for Moderate or Low Risk. We will bypass High Reward for High Risk, just as we would bypass Low Reward for any risk level (unless it has been a really slow and boring day.)
3. There will also be those rare occasions that we will feel the need to send a message. Intimidation only works when backed up with violence.
4. Most importantly, we will need to resort to violence in order to keep our combat skills and tactics honed. It is nothing personal, it's just live fire training.
In the end, as I and others have said... We will not plunder you to the point of starvation or to drive you off into some other territory (and into the arms of another bandit company).
Ideally, we would love for you to hire us to go after your competition. Your best protection and the best method for you to protect your profit margine, is to hire bandits to attack your competition. You kill two birds with one stone, you protect yourself (we are occupied) and you hit the market with more goods than your competition.
Trade wars are a bandit's playground!
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you travel and refuse a SAD, we can kill you and take all of your cargo (cargo is non threaded, inventory items).You can kill them and take *some* of their cargo. The rest is destroyed.
My understanding is that cargo is unthreaded (inventory items) and we can carry away as much as we have a capacity to carry. If we can carry away 100% of the loot, then nothing will be left behind for destruction.
As I detailed above, I would like to be able to use this as a base group:
4 x Outlaws + 2 x Assassins + 2 x Travelers in a group of 8.
Obviously, changes will have to be made when we find out what group sizes will be.
I am personally hoping for group sizes be 8 or more, but I like 8... I would then break up my company into squads, known as "Pieces of Eight,Yarr!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf You, Sir, have been at this board for a heck of a longer time than I have. You have a much greater and swifter understanding of things as they stand now about assumed mechanics for PFO. I was wrong about the not flagging Traveller being safe from SAD demands. I will spell out this idea (one of many *snicker*)for beating the Bandit System and you can point out for me what I am failing to get. Please =D
Assume that we are in a PFO age when there are multiple markets for goods and the game is fairly well established. As a merchant I will either be a crafter or have an alt crafter making high end (high end qualified by what is available to the best crafters at the time).
Caravans are of little use to me. The danger and cost of transporting large loads of goods to better markets is at best risky. Even with Alts in many markets (checking prices). By the time I get there, alot of other guys will be there trying to get those prices too. Markets will fluctuate too quickly. Caravans are just too much risk and too costly and too much hassle. For bulk goods trading I will just sit fat in one market and manipulate it for what profits that I can.
Ok. Most likely the same principle will apply to high end goods. Most times those that want them will come to me.
Now for RP or profit or just to piss off bandits, I may sometimes travel with a small amount of high end gear (all of it threaded). I will go without the Traveller Flag. I will be hit with SAD, refuse, be killed. Ouch! But I will lose nothing. Do I lose any coin? (not sure about that) If I keep getting back up and going again and you SAD me and then kill me over and over, knowing that I will just be back on the road soon; is that not griefing? If you let me by, do I not get my full load to market? This assumes that I can't find a way around you.
Am I missing something?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding is that cargo is unthreaded (inventory items) and we can carry away as much as we have a capacity to carry. If we can carry away 100% of the loot, then nothing will be left behind for destruction.
I knew I needed to bookmark this :)
Bandits that rob you will only take a fraction of what you had on you, destroying the rest...I need to bookmark that :)
7. It takes longer to setup and gather resources than to steal them after they have been gathered.Mostly true, and a key part of the risk vs. reward that encourages you to try for the rare resources in dangerous territory precisely because if you do get them to market, they'll be worth more. Bandits that rob you will only take a fraction of what you had on you, destroying the rest, and have to balance their own risk vs. reward on properly identifying their targets and making sure they continue to have gatherers to fleece. To a certain extent this should reach a natural equilibrium; it's not going to be much more fun for bandits to sit in a bush all day hoping a high-value, low-defense target happens by. If an area becomes unprofitable to gather at due to banditry, gatherers will stop coming, the bandits will get bored and some of them will leave, and it will eventually become a risky but not hopeless place to gather again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will be hit with SAD, refuse, be killed. Ouch! But I will lose nothing...
If you let me by, do I not get my full load to market?
If you lose nothing in the first case, then it's because you had nothing to lose. It does not follow that you can lose nothing in the first case, but get your "full load" to market in the second case, unless your "full load" is your threaded gear, which possibly can't be traded once it's been threaded, and in any case isn't going to represent enough in the way of goods to warrant taking them to a different market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you lose nothing in the first case, then it's because you had nothing to lose. It does not follow that you can lose nothing in the first case, but get your "full load" to market in the second case, unless your "full load" is your threaded gear, which possibly can't be traded once it's been threaded, and in any case isn't going to represent enough in the way of goods to warrant taking them to a different market.I will be hit with SAD, refuse, be killed. Ouch! But I will lose nothing...
If you let me by, do I not get my full load to market?
I sell the gear that I wear at market. If it is high end enough, it will be worth threading only a little. Thread what you can and what you plan to sell and either wear real junk or nothing for the rest. Heck pay a few or alot of guys to do the same and you have "High End Couriers" without the cost of guards, horses, wagons, time organizing, etc. or the risk.
My point is that there are ways around paying bandit tolls. If there even is ever a need/desire to move items to far markets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be a need to move items to far markets, but it will only be profitable in large quantities, and it will generally not be "high end gear" which can be threaded (since that generally won't be lost), but rather it will be high-end consumables.
The point of the game is to create incentives for Traders to move goods from one market to another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon Okay, I missed this:
which possibly can't be traded once it's been threaded
I have not seen anything indicating that threads can't be mixed and matched at will. Or that once threaded, gear becames bound forever. Some are even needed for bind points and certainly those will be switched often won't they?.
I think Bringslite is trying to say that he wants to trade small but valuable items such as a tier 3 sword, rare spell book, ect, not a wagon load of timber, ore or other bulk goods.