Loading Advanced Firearms

[Trscroggs]

I know advanced firearms load more quickly than their early counterparts, my question is does this already account for the fact that they are using alchemical cartridges? (ie metal cartridges)

What I really need is a chart of load times:
Early one-handed firearm:
Early one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge:
Early one-handed firearm with rapid reload:
Early one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload:

Early two-handed firearm:
Early two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge:
Early two-handed firearm with rapid reload:
Early two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload:

Advanced one-handed firearm:
Advanced one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge:
Advanced one-handed firearm with rapid reload:
Advanced one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload:

Advanced two-handed firearm:
Advanced two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge:
Advanced two-handed firearm with rapid reload:
Advanced two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload:

[Starbuck_II]

Trscroggs wrote:

I know advanced firearms load more quickly than their early counterparts, my question is does this already account for the fact that they are using alchemical cartridges? (ie metal cartridges)

What I really need is a chart of load times:
Early one-handed firearm:
Early one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge:
Early one-handed firearm with rapid reload:
Early one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload:

Early two-handed firearm:
Early two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge:
Early two-handed firearm with rapid reload:
Early two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload:

Advanced one-handed firearm:
Advanced one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge:
Advanced one-handed firearm with rapid reload:
Advanced one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload:

Advanced two-handed firearm:
Advanced two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge:
Advanced two-handed firearm with rapid reload:
Advanced two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload:

Early one-handed firearm: Standard

Early one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge: Move
Early one-handed firearm with rapid reload: Move
Early one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload: Free

Early two-handed firearm: Full
Early two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge: standard
Early two-handed firearm with rapid reload: standard
Early two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload: move
Early two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload and Musket Master: free

Advanced one-handed firearm: move
Advanced one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge: free
Advanced one-handed firearm with rapid reload: free
Advanced one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload: free x2

Advanced two-handed firearm: move
Advanced two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge: free
Advanced two-handed firearm with rapid reload: free
Advanced two-handed firearm with alchemical cartridge and rapid reload: free x2

[Ishyna]

I will have to disagree with the above poster on a couple things. Advanced Firearms use Metal Cartridges Only as ammunition. Metal Cartridges are alchemical cartridges. Therefore I strongly feel that this is already included in their action to load.

Otherwise an advanced firearm would ALWAYS be a free action and never a move action to load.

Of course this is up to your GM to interpret, but I feel confident this is how it is meant to be played.

Secondly, by RAW, Rapid Reload has no affect on Advanced Firearms. It does not reduce the step to reload a firearm. Instead it specifies what action it is to load based on whether the firearm is one or two handed. A one handed Firearm becomes a move action to load and a two handed firearm becomes a standard action to load with Rapid reload.

Yes I realize this is backwards. Rapid Reload (Again by RAW) actually increases the time it takes to reload a two handed firearm. Technically you can never load an Advanced Firearm as a free action using rapid reload.

However, this is something that the GM is welcome to house rule. Many do. I am personally of the opinion that Rapid Reload was never meant to be used with Advanced Firearms, but that is my interpretation. You will have to discuss this with your GM. Just be careful... Having an 80ft Range increment TOUCH ATTACK that does 1d12X4 and adds your dex to damage on a full BAB class is a very slippery slope to walk on.

This leads many to the question: What is the point of Advanced Firearms then? And its a good question to ask. A full BAB class that can't reload as a free action is diminished greatly. Most come to the conclusion that it is meant to be used with abilities like Dead Shot and large chambers. The advantage the Advanced Firearms have here is confirming as touch attacks at any range, higher ammo capacity, and never blowing up in your face.

Personally the gunslinger I played stayed with early firearms so that he could reload as a free action and take advantage of Rapid Shot, High BAB, and Snapshot.

[AxiomOfAnarchy]

Ishyna wrote:

I will have to disagree with the above poster on a couple things. Advanced Firearms use Metal Cartridges Only as ammunition. Metal Cartridges are alchemical cartridges. Therefore I strongly feel that this is already included in their action to load.

Otherwise an advanced firearm would ALWAYS be a free action and never a move action to load.

Of course this is up to your GM to interpret, but I feel confident this is how it is meant to be played.

Correct.

Ishyna wrote:

Secondly, by RAW, Rapid Reload has no affect on Advanced Firearms. It does not reduce the step to reload a firearm.

Just looking at the Rapid Reload feat alone, it would actually appear to increase the time it takes to reload two-handed advanced firearms from a move action to a standard action, which makes the feat's benefit text self-contradictory.

The Loading Firearms section of UC states that the feat reduces the time required to "load one-handed and two-handed firearms", while the feat's benefit text begins by stating that it reduces the time required to "reload your chosen type of weapon". In both cases, the reloading time is said to be reduced, not kept the same or increased.

The remainder of the feat's benefit text can be interpreted in one of two ways: either it contradicts both the "Loading Firearms" section and the beginning of its own benefit text, or the weapons listed in parentheses must be viewed only as examples of weapons which normally have greater loading times (i.e. one-handed early firearms are normally a standard action to load, hence the presence of "one-handed firearm" in parentheses next to "move action"). The former interpretation would mean that you are correct, while the latter would mean that Starbuck_II is correct; problem is, neither interpretation is technically RAW.

There actually is no way to determine the RAW in this case, because even if it were clear which text qualifies as the more "specific" text (and it most certainly is not clear), neither reading can just be taken at face value. No matter how the feat's benefit text or the "Loading Firearms" section of UC are read, it's obvious there's an error somewhere, because the very existence of advanced firearms renders the feat's benefit text nonsensical.

Unfortunately, despite the frequency with which this question comes up, and despite the logical incoherence and ambiguity being glaringly obvious, Paizo has yet to faq/errata this. Until they do, there is no RAW for how the feat works with advanced firearms, if it does at all, there's only guessing about RAI.

[Xaratherus]

There was a thread started on this topic back in 2011; since it has not been errata'd yet, and that thread already had a decent number of FAQ requests, I necro'd it. Please feel free to hit it up for FAQ requests.

Advanced Firearms and Rapid Reload necro