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Update:
Okay, I've crunched some numbers, and if James Jacobs made a couple mistakes (or I made some mistakes, which is more likely but less subversive) then I can interpret some of it.
First caveat: Instead of the normal one Knowledge skill as a class skill for quasits, Erylium has both Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (the planes) as a quasit class skill.
Second caveat: Instead of Intimidate +14, Erylium's Intimidate bonus is +15.
Theory one: Thaumaturges have (4+Int modifier)x(thaumaturge level) skill points above first level.
Theory two: Erylium has some sort of bonus that gives her a +2 on Spellcraft checks, probably a bonus from being a thaumaturge. Either this or her Spellcraft modifier was miscalculated, too.
Theory three: Thaumaturge class skills include: Bluff (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), and Spellcraft (Int).
Intimidate may have a different miscalculation if it is not a thaumaturge class skill; in this case it should have been +13, not +14.
Does any of this look right?
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After sleeping on it, I think the Spellcraft bonus couldn't be from Orm unless Erylium had some sort of -1 penalty somewhere, since familiar skill bonuses are always +3.
Do Master Summoner or Adept summoner grant a +2 Spellcraft bonus that just wasn't included in their notes in Erylium's special abilities? That seems more likely, since James Jacobs probably doesn't include the skill bonuses from every single feat for an NPC that's only going to last one encounter.
Can anyone just post anything here?
I felt bad that nobody has posted a response, so I'm looking into it.
I don't have book of fiends either, so I'm working with the same info you are.
I can see a couple things with the skills that might clear things up for you. She's getting a +2 synergy bonus to Intimidate from having 5 ranks in Bluff, and shes getting a +2 synergy bonus to Spellcraft from having 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcane).
I'll post more in a few minutes once I look at things closer.
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I felt bad that nobody has posted a response, so I'm looking into it.
I don't have book of fiends either, so I'm working with the same info you are.
I can see a couple things with the skills that might clear things up for you. She's getting a +2 synergy bonus to Intimidate from having 5 ranks in Bluff, and shes getting a +2 synergy bonus to Spellcraft from having 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcane).
I'll post more in a few minutes once I look at things closer.
Oh, yeah. I forgot about synergy. That clears some of it up. Thanks!
OK working backwards I think I figured out the skill ranks.
Outsiders in 3.5 got 8 skill points per HD, giving her 9 sps for each of her 3 outsider HD. Since she got those levels first, that gives her a total of 54 sps to use with her outsider HD. She maxed her ranks in all her given skills. All of those are class skills for her outsider HD, except for one, which she put cross class ranks into. This would be either knowledge (arcane) or knowledge (planes), take your pick, as a quasit would normally get one knowledge skill as a class skill. We'll just say planes for simplicity here, but either could work.
Picking up the 3 HD in thaumaturge, she put 3 more ranks into bluff, spellcraft and knowledge (planes), then put 6 into knowledge (arcane). That means she spent a total of 15 skill points over 3 HD, or 5 skill points per level. Since she's got a +1 Int mod, that means Thaumaturge is giving 4 skill points per level.
Thats the only way I could get everything to work. Took me a bit to figure out the cross class thing, but then it all fell into place.
Her skills would work as follows:
Bluff +10 (9 ranks +3 Cha -2 terrible breath)
Hide +19 (6 ranks +5 dex +8 size)
Intimidate +14 (6 ranks +3 Cha + 2 synergy +3 raspy voice)
Knowledge (arcane) +10 (9 ranks +1 Int) (note that first 3 ranks were cross class costing her 6 skill points, and then 6 ranks put into it over 3 levels of Thaumaturge)
Knowledge (planes) +10 (9 ranks +1 Int)
Listen +6 (6 ranks +0 Wis)
Move Silently +11 (6 ranks +5 Dex)
Spellcraft +12 (9 ranks +1 Int +2 synergy)
Spot +6 (6 ranks +0 Wis)
I'll try to restat her and post it here. Hope that clears up the skill rank issues though.
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Oh I'm not certain on what the class skills for Thaumaturge are, although I'm pretty certain that knowledge (planes, arcane) and spellcraft would be on it. In any event, bluff disguise and hide would be class skills for her Thaumaturge levels due to having the Trickery domain.
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OK working backwards I think I figured out the skill ranks.
Outsiders in 3.5 got 8 skill points per HD, giving her 9 sps for each of her 3 outsider HD. Since she got those levels first, that gives her a total of 54 sps to use with her outsider HD. She maxed her ranks in all her given skills. All of those are class skills for her outsider HD, except for one, which she put cross class ranks into. This would be either knowledge (arcane) or knowledge (planes), take your pick, as a quasit would normally get one knowledge skill as a class skill. We'll just say planes for simplicity here, but either could work.
Yeah, I got that.
Picking up the 3 HD in thaumaturge, she put 3 more ranks into bluff, spellcraft and knowledge (planes), then put 6 into knowledge (arcane). That means she spent a total of 15 skill points over 3 HD, or 5 skill points per level. Since she's got a +1 Int mod, that means Thaumaturge is giving 4 skill points per level.
Thats the only way I could get everything to work. Took me a bit to figure out the cross class thing, but then it all fell into place.
Her skills would work as follows:
Bluff +10 (9 ranks +3 Cha -2 terrible breath)
Hide +19 (6 ranks +5 dex +8 size)
Intimidate +14 (6 ranks +3 Cha + 2 synergy +3 raspy voice)
Knowledge (arcane) +10 (9 ranks +1 Int) (note that first 3 ranks were cross class costing her 6 skill points, and then 6 ranks put into it over 3 levels of Thaumaturge)
Knowledge (planes) +10 (9 ranks +1 Int)
Listen +6 (6 ranks +0 Wis)
Move Silently +11 (6 ranks +5 Dex)
Spellcraft +12 (9 ranks +1 Int +2 synergy)
Spot +6 (6 ranks +0 Wis)I'll try to restat her and post it here. Hope that clears up the skill rank issues though.
Ok, yeah, this works out. I don't need you to restat her. Thanks for the help (again)!
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Oh I'm not certain on what the class skills for Thaumaturge are, although I'm pretty certain that knowledge (planes, arcane) and spellcraft would be on it. In any event, bluff disguise and hide would be class skills for her Thaumaturge levels due to having the Trickery domain.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure thaumaturge class skills are Bluff (or not, since she'd get it from her domain), at least one of the Knowledge skills, and Spellcraft. However, in 3.5 you can't take cross-class skill ranks in a Knowledge skill, so something must be wrong there.
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Here's some of my scratch-work:
Bluff +10 total (-2 corruption, +3 Cha, +6 outsider ranks, +3 thaumaturge ranks) Outsider 6 ranks, thaumaturge 3 ranks
Hide +19 total (+8 size, +5 Dex, +6 outsider ranks) Outsider 12 ranks, thaumaturge 3 ranks
Intimidate +14 total (+3 corruptions, +3 Cha, +6 outsider ranks, +2 Bluff synergy) Outsider 18 ranks, thaumaturge 3 ranks
Knowledge (arcana) +10 total (+1 Int, +6 outsider ranks, +3 thaumaturge ranks) Outsider 24 ranks, thaumaturge 6 ranks
Knowledge (the planes) +10 total (+1 Int, +3 outsider ranks, +3 thaumaturge ranks, +3 wren familiar) Outsider 30 ranks, thaumaturge 9 ranks
Listen +6 total (+6 outsider ranks) Outsider 36 ranks, thaumaturge 9 ranks
Move Silently +11 total (+5 Dex, +6 outsider ranks) Outsider 42 ranks, thaumaturge 9 ranks
Spellcraft +12 total (+1 Int, +6 outsider ranks, +3 thaumaturge ranks, +2 Knowledge [arcana] synergy) Outsider 48 ranks, thaumaturge 12 ranks
Spot +6 total (+6 outsider ranks) Outsider 54 ranks, thaumaturge 12 ranks
We need to figure out what bonus wrens give; in any case, one of the Knowledge skills will be messed up.
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I don't have access to Book of Fiends, and I'm trying to convert Erylium (from RotR #1: "Burnt Offerings") to PFRPG. Does anyone know what the skill points/level are for thaumaturges (BoF version) in 3.5? I don't need a PFRPG conversion, just something to start with.
I happen to have the book in front of me. :)
Class Skills:
Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana, the planes), Profession, Scry, and Spellcraft.
Animal or Plant Domain adds Knowledge (nature)
Knowledge Domain adds all Knowledges
Travel Domain adds Wilderness Lore
Trickery Domain adds Bluff, Disguise, and Hide (I realize bluff is already a class skill, that is the way it reads)
Skill Points per level: 2 + Int
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I don't have access to Book of Fiends, and I'm trying to convert Erylium (from RotR #1: "Burnt Offerings") to PFRPG. Does anyone know what the skill points/level are for thaumaturges (BoF version) in 3.5? I don't need a PFRPG conversion, just something to start with.I happen to have the book in front of me. :)
Class Skills:
Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana, the planes), Profession, Scry, and Spellcraft.Animal or Plant Domain adds Knowledge (nature)
Knowledge Domain adds all Knowledges
Travel Domain adds Wilderness Lore
Trickery Domain adds Bluff, Disguise, and Hide (I realize bluff is already a class skill, that is the way it reads)Skill Points per level: 2 + Int
Tyvm!
Father Dale: We were both wrong on skill points/level. Oh well.
OK I'd make the following changes to her stat block to get her in line with PF from 3.5.
Note that quasits get less dexterity than before, so her new dex score should be 18 instead of 20. (using the elite array and adjusting for quasit racial/size changes. alternatively you could give the ability boosts for taking class levels to a base quasit and end up with the same stats but with a 13 Int instead of 12 Int. either way)
CR should be roughly the same. Base Quazit is CR 2. +1.5 for 3 non keyed class levels. Add 1 for ability boost from elite array, roughly rounded to CR 4.
Skills as follows (cs means class skill):
Bluff +10 (6r +3 Cha +3 cs -2 terrible breath)
Fly +22 (3r +4 Dex +3 cs +8 manueverability +4 size)
Intimidate +12 (3r +3 Cha +3 cs +3 raspy voice)
know (planes) +10 (6r +1 Int +3 cs)
know (arcane) +10 (6r +1 Int +3 cs)
Perception +6 (3r +3 cs +0 Wis)
Stealth +18 (3r +4 Dex +3 cs +8 size)
Spellcraft +10 (6r +1 Int +3 cs)
On skills, note that outsiders get less skill points than before (6 per HD instead of 8 per HD). Thus she gets 7 per HD for her 3 outsider HD or 21 total. Then she gets 5 per HD for her Thaumaturge levels for a total of 15. Thus a total of 36 skill points. Doesn't matter in what order she added them, since all her skills are now class skills for either outsider or thaumaturge.
Feats should stay the same.
Saves should be Fort 3, Ref 8, Will 6. Outsiders now get only 2 good saves instead of 3, these are generally Ref and Will, and this is how it works for Quasits. Thaumaturge appears to have poor Fort and Ref and good will. Thus fort drops by 2 from before. Ref drops by 1 due to lower dexterity. Or working from the ground up: Outsider= 1/1/3, Thaum = 1/1/3, thus base saves are 2/2/6. Add 1 to fort for +1 Con and 4 to dex for +4 dex.
AC should be 20 (+4 dex, +2 natural armor, +2 increase to natural armor from scaly skin, +2 size). Touch AC = 16, Flatfooted AC = 14
She should have resistance 10 to acid, cold and fire instead of just fire.
Initiative drops 1 for lower dex.
Base Attack = +4, CMB = +6 (+4 BAB, +4 dex: tiny creature uses dex instead of str, -2 size penalty), CMD = 11 (10 -1 str +4 dex -2 size penalty)
On her spells, shatter is no longer the domain spell for chaos domain, so she'll need align weapon or invisibility as her domain spell for 2nd level.
Give her the domain abilities for Chaos and Trickery; copycat for trickery and touch of chaos for chaos. These are interesting abilities especially at that level so don't forget about them!
Her class abilities/corruptions look appropriate so no need to change anything there.
Her hitpoints need relcalculated since outsiders get d10 HD instead of d8. Plus it looks like thaumaturge is a base class, so she can have 3 additional hitpoints for levels in that. Thus her hitpoints should be 3d10 + 3d8 +6 Con +3 favored class. This is an average of 39 hps.
Hope this helps.
Ugh the skills are wrong?!
Ok guess that means that both knowledge skills were treated as class skills, and she put max ranks into all her skills with her Outsider HD. That leaves her with 9 skill points for her 3 thaumaturge levels, and thats not enough to get her skills to where they are. So her familiar must be boosting something. And it would have to be either bluff, knowledge (arcane or planes), or spellcraft. Bluff seems the most likely possibility.
So lets just assume that. On the restat her skills would remain unchanged since I forgot 3 skill points anyways. So she should be getting 6 less skill points than I anticipated; my forgetfullness accounts for 3 of them, and her familiar for the other 3.
Also on the restat, her attacks should be as follows:
Melee: 2 claws +10 (1d3-1 plus poison) and bite +10 (1d4-1)
Ranged: +1 returning dagger +11 (1d2/19-20)
For the poison use the same stats as for a regular Quasit, but up the DC by 1 for her increased Con score.
You may want to also note that thaumaturges are Charisma-based casters. Quasits in the Bestiary have a starting Cha of 11. Which means her ability boost for her 4th hit die must go into Cha to be able to cast her 2nd-level spells.
Right, but getting class levels in a heroic class gives her the elite array of ability scores as opposed to the normal array. Thus she adjusts her ability scores by +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 in whatever way she wants. Or just use the base elite array and adjust the base scores for her racial/size adjustments. This is how her resulting Charisma is a 16.
In any event yeah the +1 does go into her Charisma at 4th level.
Rebuilding her with the elite array results in the same stats as before except dex is 18 instead of 20.
Using the ability boost method results in the same stats except dex is 18 and Int is 13.
Oh her HD for thaumaturge might actually be d6 now since it looks like Thaum is a 1/2 BAB class. So hps should be 3d10 + 3d6 +9, or an average of 36.
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Here's my conversion of abilities, feats, and skills, then:
Abilities:
Note: Quasits have only +4 Dex, not +6 like in 3.5
Ability bonuses from 3 levels of thaumaturge should already be factored in.
Str 8, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 1
Feats: Adept Summoner, Master Summoner, Weapon Finesse
Skills:
(6+1)(3)+(1)(3)=24 outsider skill points in class skills Bluff, Craft, Intimidate (one of 4 additional class skills, added since it was in entry), Knowledge (planes), Fly (one of 4 additional class skills, added since it was in entry), Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth; two more class skills for quasits (I'm going to designate Knowledge [arcana] and Acrobatics).
(2+1)(3)=9 thaumaturge skill points in class skills Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (planes), Profession, Spellcraft; I'm going to add Fly since almost all spellcasters seem to get it. I'd do a full conversion of the thaumaturge class, but I don't have all of the information.
Wren familiars grant a +3 bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) checks.
I designated her favoured class as outsider, and put that bonus into skill ranks.
Bluff +10 (+3 Cha, +3 outsider ranks, +3 thaumaturge ranks, +3 class, -2 terrible breath)
Fly +22 (+4 Dex, +3 outsider ranks, +3 class, +4 size, +8 perfect manoeuvrability)
Intimidate +15 (+3 Cha, +3 outsider ranks, +3 thaumaturge ranks, +3 class, +3 raspy voice)
Knowledge (arcana) +10 (+1 Int, +3 outsider ranks, +3 class, +3 wren familiar)
Knowledge (planes) +7 (+1 Int, +3 outsider ranks, +3 class)
Perception +6 (+3 outsider ranks, +3 class) or +8 when Orm is within arm's reach (+2 Alertness feat)
Spellcraft +10 (+1 Int, +3 outsider ranks, +3 thaumaturge ranks, +3 class)
Stealth +18 (+4 Dex, +3 outsider ranks, +3 class, +8 size)
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You may want to also note that thaumaturges are Charisma-based casters. Quasits in the Bestiary have a starting Cha of 11. Which means her ability boost for her 4th hit die must go into Cha to be able to cast her 2nd-level spells.
I assume James Jacobs already factored the ability boost in, since the progression is the same for 3.5 and PFRPG. Basically, all you have to do is subtract 2 from her Dex because quasits are less agile now.
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If wrens give a bonus on any of these skills, then I think thaumaturges have (3+Int)(levels) skill points. If not, then what you said.I am willing to bet a wren is mechanically equivalent to a raven. I see no reference to wren as a special familiar.
So boost to Appraise? I'll take out the bonus to Knowledge (arcana) then.
Edit: Actually, to try to get her skills as close as possible to the originals, I'm gonna say wrens give a +3 bonus to Knowledge (arcana) checks.
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Ugh the skills are wrong?!
Ok guess that means that both knowledge skills were treated as class skills, and she put max ranks into all her skills with her Outsider HD. That leaves her with 9 skill points for her 3 thaumaturge levels, and thats not enough to get her skills to where they are. So her familiar must be boosting something. And it would have to be either bluff, knowledge (arcane or planes), or spellcraft. Bluff seems the most likely possibility.
So lets just assume that. On the restat her skills would remain unchanged since I forgot 3 skill points anyways. So she should be getting 6 less skill points than I anticipated; my forgetfullness accounts for 3 of them, and her familiar for the other 3.
Don't forget that she probably chose outsider as her favoured class, giving her either extra skill points, hp, or a combo of both to a total of 3.
Edit: In my version, I put those extras into skill ranks.
Don't forget that she probably chose outsider as her favoured class, giving her either extra skill points, hp, or a combo of both to a total of 3.
Edit: In my version, I put those extras into skill ranks.
Only actual base classes can be a favored class; prestige classes and racial HD don't count. And it might just be heroic classes (fighter, bard, wizard, etc..), I still can't figure out if non-heroic classes (expert, aristrocrat, etc..) can be a favored class.
In any event, it still works out to either 3 extra hp or 3 extra skill points, or some combination thereof. And since it doesn't matter when they get added because all her skills are class skills either for her racial HD or her thaumaturge level, it won't have any effect in the end. (remember that it doesn't cost more to raise a skill thats not a class skill for that class--its always 1 skill point to add 1 rank regardless of class skills).
However you do it, it should be a total of 30 skill points from HD. (7x3) + (3x3). And add up to 3 additional skill points from favored class. Max ranks in any skill is 6. So really you can arrange them any way you want given those factors, then add in any bonuses or penalties she has.
I think the big thing for her is to max her spellcraft, knowledge (planes) and knowledge (arcane) since she's primarily a spellcasting summoner.
Why would Int become 13? She already has her boost...
I'll demonstrate.
Base Quasit has the following stats: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 11.
Since a base quasit has no class levels, it is designed using the normal ability array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. Any adjustments to that are due to racial/size modifers. (We can ignore size modifiers since they are already built in and the quasit isn't changing size.)
So looking at the starting ability stats compared to the normal array we can see that the quasit gets the following ability adjustments: -2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis. Adding those adjustments to the normal ability array would arrive at the base quasit's starting ability scores.
Now since we are adding class levels, our quasit gets to use the elite ability array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. And then we add the racial adjustments that we just figured out.
So we'll go with 10 str, 14 dex, 13 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 15 Cha. We'll add adjustments of -2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis. And then add a +1 to Cha for her 4th HD. This results in the following: 8 Str, 18 Dex, 13 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha.
Comparing this to the original stats for Erylium we see that the only change is that her dex is now 18 instead of 20. And this corresponds to quasits now having less dexterity than before. (14 as opposed to 17)
Alternatively, we could use the boost method of adding to her abilities because she's taking class levels. (See page 297 of the Bestiary) If doing it this way we modify the base creatures abilities as follows: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 in any manner we desire.
So we'll take the base quasit and make the following adjustments to try to line her up with the original Elyrium's stats: +0 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, +4 Cha. This gives a net result of 8 Str, 18 Dex, 13 Con, 13 Int, 10 Wis, 15 Cha. And add the +1 from fourth HD to Cha to get 16 Cha.
So using that method we come up with the same result except her Dex is 18 instead of 20 and her Int is 13 instead of 12.
Either way works out to the same ability modifiers in this case.
This demonstrates how using the boost method results in a net +1 gain to ability scores. i.e. if we add all up the ability scores, the ability boost method will result in a total of one higher than the total of the elite array.
15 +14 +13 +12 +10 +8 = 72
11 +11 +11 +10 +10 +10 = 63 then add 4 +4 +2 +2 +0 -2 for a total of 73.
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Why would Int become 13? She already has her boost...I'll demonstrate.
Base Quasit has the following stats: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 11.
Since a base quasit has no class levels, it is designed using the normal ability array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. Any adjustments to that are due to racial/size modifers. (We can ignore size modifiers since they are already built in and the quasit isn't changing size.)
So looking at the starting ability stats compared to the normal array we can see that the quasit gets the following ability adjustments: -2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis. Adding those adjustments to the normal ability array would arrive at the base quasit's starting ability scores.
Now since we are adding class levels, our quasit gets to use the elite ability array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. And then we add the racial adjustments that we just figured out.
So we'll go with 10 str, 14 dex, 13 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 15 Cha. We'll add adjustments of -2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis. And then add a +1 to Cha for her 4th HD. This results in the following: 8 Str, 18 Dex, 13 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha.
Comparing this to the original stats for Erylium we see that the only change is that her dex is now 18 instead of 20. And this corresponds to quasits now having less dexterity than before. (14 as opposed to 17)
Alternatively, we could use the boost method of adding to her abilities because she's taking class levels. (See page 297 of the Bestiary) If doing it this way we modify the base creatures abilities as follows: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 in any manner we desire.
So we'll take the base quasit and make the following adjustments to try to line her up with the original Elyrium's stats: +0 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, +4 Cha. This gives a net result of 8 Str, 18 Dex, 13 Con, 13 Int, 10 Wis, 15 Cha. And add the +1 from fourth HD to Cha to get 16 Cha.
So using that method we come up with the same result except her Dex is 18 instead of 20...
Okay, I get it.
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Only actual base classes can be a favored class; prestige classes and racial HD don't count. And it might just be heroic classes (fighter, bard, wizard, etc..), I still can't figure out if non-heroic classes (expert, aristrocrat, etc..) can be a favored class.
Don't forget that she probably chose outsider as her favoured class, giving her either extra skill points, hp, or a combo of both to a total of 3.
Edit: In my version, I put those extras into skill ranks.
Ah, I didn't realise that racial hit dice don't count as base classes.
I think the big thing for her is to max her spellcraft, knowledge (planes) and knowledge (arcane) since she's primarily a spellcasting summoner.
Well, she also needs a good fly skill since she relies a lot on her mobility.