Here's a quick re-format of earlier.
Can you do the following? Please tell me if any notes are off.
Note 1: Pay wizard to polymorph any object you into a bat. We choose bat because it's a mammal.. your a mammal.. it's permanent!
(1200g for +6 dex, -4 str, blindsense 20 ft, low light vision, and +4 fly; and diminutive size grants +4 to hit and AC, +12 to stealth, and +6 fly!)
Step 2: As a bat, can you inflict special attacks such as stunning fist/scorpion style?
Step 3: As a bat, are all your shadow dancer spell type abilities still/silent? Do your gnome spell-abilties now become still/silent?
Thanks!
Also, while minor, his +1 to DCs of illusion spells only affects spells, not spell-like abilities, from my understanding. I could be wrong, but from what I remember reading that is how it works.
Okki, can you list your questions again? You have a ton of questions in there.
And yes CrystalSpellblade, things that specify spells do not affect spell-like abilities unless those are specified as well.
Hrm, repost coming soon.
okay, post reworded.
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I answered a similar question about a gnome shadowdancer turning into a bat for the physical benefits.
Well the trick would be can a bat dance? A GM could rule that dancing would invoke the "relying on your form" clause of the polymorph subschool.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.You could absolutely pay a wizard to cast permanent alter self on you, but it could be dispelled at any time later.
--Pop, lock, & Vrock it.
But shadow dancing requires stealth checks, not perform: dance?
My biggest question is there a rule anywhere on animals or the monk abilities that would forbid a bat from using them? Otherwise, it's DM interpretation I guess.
The closest arguement comes in the poly subschool listed above.
Scorpion Style and Stunning Fist are monk abilities. Do they specifically require arms and legs or could a bat do a Stunning Wing Flick?
I think I know how the DM would lean here, I'm just looking for something solid.
So how would say, a bear strike unarmed? It has natural weapons on all its limbs. Does it flank bump you?
Is there something somewhere that says all physical bodies are capable of unarmed strikes?
I see where it says adventurers can. I do not see where it says animals can, or oozes can, or anyone else.
I'm not trying to argue, I just want to know if you strongly believe that or if its by the book somewhere?
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A monk in bear form could headbutt, body slam or backhand as examples of unarmed attacks.
Any animal can choose to unarmed attacks. Most have no reason.
Don't forget, becoming smaller reduces damage. Your monk is going to take quite a hit.
Equipping new gear in the future is going to be challenging unless specifically made for his new form, and he won't be able to remove currently worn gear. Those slots are permanently occupied by the items he was wearing when polymorphed.
Make sure you double check the carrying capacity for creatures your size. It is now far lower than is used to be.
"Okki," huh? Is that you, Ken? LOL! I'm the one who came up with this idea (and posted about it a couple days ago, thanks King of Vrock, and sorry for the redundancy).
Yeah, I think it is a nifty combo, and I agree with the consensus that unarmed strikes (as well as stunning fists, scorpion style attacks, etc) are all valid even as a bat. Damage really is bad, though. And the hit to Str is also quite painful. Certainly not an "unstoppable" build!
I am thinking Fighter 2 / Monk 3 / Shadowdancer as the best build route, since it gives the sweet sweet feats you need, like Weapon Finesse and spring attack. (You want spring attack over fly by attack because SA grants immunity from AoOs, and you have to enter your target's square to attack with reach zero.) And as a scout / spy / hit-and-run fighter, I think it is a fun idea. Not unstoppable, of course.
Artanthos, you are right that gear is a problem! No command word based items ever. I figure every couple levels you get your Poly Any Object dispelled, equip yourself with always on gear like Bracers of Armor, Ring of Protection, Cloak of Resistance, Stat boosters, etc. Then have your mage pal recast.
Spending gold on permanent Greater Magic Fang is a definite for the future.
If you are lucky enough to have a CL20 mage pal to cast for you, then you are effectively immune to Dispel Magic, seeing as the DC to dispel is 11+20 = 31, and the highest you can roll with dispel magic is 1d20+10. Then all you have to worry about is Greater Dispel Magic.
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Not every unarmed strike has to be some sort of martial art maneuver.
You do not need limbs to make an unarmed strike.
A Monk under the effect of Vermin Shape, can, in Slug shape, complete a Flurry of Blows, use Scorpion Style, Stunning Fist, or any other feat or ability that requires an attack with an Unarmed Strike.
You can flavor as you choose.
Okay just going to throw this in the mix
Feral Combat training lets you use substitute natural weapons for unarmed strikes.
discuss, enjoy ;)
You're really going to suffer from lack of reach.
Okay just going to throw this in the mix
Feral Combat training lets you use substitute natural weapons for unarmed strikes.
discuss, enjoy ;)
During Flurry, yes.
What else are you implying?
not just flurry, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
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not just flurry, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.Okay just going to throw this in the mix
Feral Combat training lets you use substitute natural weapons for unarmed strikes.
discuss, enjoy ;)
During Flurry, yes.
What else are you implying?
That too.
Which means you can Flurry with a Beaststrike Club.
Vrock and Ravingdork, you guys are both exactly right. There are lots of down sides to this idea. It is by no means 'Unstoppable"!
CMD is a real problem for grappling. Versus disarm, sunder, trip, bull rush, etc, meh. But grappling is an issue. I suggest taking max ranks in escape artist. It is a dex-based skill, so that gives you a decent chance to escape.
Reach is not so bad. Yes, your Combat Reflexes feat is an almost complete waste. But with Spring Attack you can enter your target's square without provoking an AoO. Mobility will help too at times. No flanking, but I took no levels in Rogue on purpose, so that's fine. The Lunge feat is an option too, but I'm betting it is not needed.
You're really going to suffer from lack of reach.
That's what I was thinking too. :\
Wouldn't PaO also attempt to alter your mind to match your new body?
In 3.5 yes, but not in Pathfinder as far as I can tell.
Wouldn't PaO also attempt to alter your mind to match your new body?
In Pathfinder the wording indicates that it only applies mental changes if the target that is going to be polymorphed doesn't have a mental score and the form they are going to take does.
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The only spell like that in PF Core is Baleful Poly, which does have a chance to change your mind (Fort save to resist the change, then Will save to keep your mind).
BP is the Poor Man's PAO, if you are willing to voluntarily fail the Fort save and then try your darndest to make the Will save. That opens up the option of permanent bird forms, something PAO cannot do, seeing as a mammal is not a bird.
You, per core, can pay a druid or wizard to cast BP for just 5*9*10 = 450 gp. If you take the trait that gives you 900 gp starting cash, you can in theory pay for your birdie shape before play begins. And if your Will save fails, make a new character, no harm done. A new character who happens to be exactly the same as your old character, and who also buys a BP. Eventually you'll make that Will save.
Any old grognards out there remember Traveller? It was a space opera game that gave you a chance to die during character creation. Kinda like that.
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If you are lucky enough to have a CL20 mage pal to cast for you, then you are effectively immune to Dispel Magic, seeing as the DC to dispel is 11+20 = 31, and the highest you can roll with dispel magic is 1d20+10. Then all you have to worry about is Greater Dispel Magic.
I don't think you are correct about that. The Pathfinder version of Dispel Magic uses 1d20+CL, and your caster level is not limited to 10 (that was in 3.5, I believe).
So, you're actually very vulnerable to Dispel Magic, unless your opponents tend to be vastly underpowered for your level (assuming you have a CL20 "mage pal").
Huh! You are right, Heymitch! Thanks for keeping me honest. Certainly, dispel magic is another reason that this strategy is not "unstoppable!" I suppose your best defense against Dispel is to stay hidden. The targeted form requires LoS, so if you are hiding in plain sight, you should be okay. The Greater Dispel has an area form. Against that, I suppose that the best hope you've got is to have a lot of spells cast on you, and maybe one of those will be dispelled, rather than your polymorph.
Huh! You are right, Heymitch! Thanks for keeping me honest. Certainly, dispel magic is another reason that this strategy is not "unstoppable!" I suppose your best defense against Dispel is to stay hidden. The targeted form requires LoS, so if you are hiding in plain sight, you should be okay. The Greater Dispel has an area form. Against that, I suppose that the best hope you've got is to have a lot of spells cast on you, and maybe one of those will be dispelled, rather than your polymorph.
I applaud your creativity and novel approach, but I can think of a million ways this could go bad for you.
- Even a moderate wind or wind based spell will knock a 10 oz bat(yes that's the average bat weight) ass over tea kettle.- You'd have to move into an opponents square to attack which means you provoke every time
- Your CMD would be ridiculously low
- Your damage output would be very low and anything with any DR what so ever will mean you barely scratch an enemy
- This would limit you to only special attacks and maneuvers
- Any spell like Web or anything that entagles will be highly effective against you
- Unless you take feats like hover, flyby attack and wingover, your aerial mobility will constantly put you in harms way. So there's a feat sink there.
- And then theres all the dispel and anti magic field stuff.
IMO not worth it at all.
On the plus side you would get to make all the batman jokes your group could take.
- Even a moderate wind or wind based spell will knock a 10 oz bat(yes that's the average bat weight) ass over tea kettle
A Bat has Good maneuverability, for a +4 on Fly checks. Diminutive gives another +6. Beast Shape III, which you are emulating, gives +6 dex, or another +3 on Fly checks. Total bonus to Fly is +13. Max your Fly ranks and add in some more Dex for a total, say, +21 Fly skill mod by level 5. Against a Gust of Wind ("Severe" class wind), you take a -4 on Fly checks, so your mod is down to +17. That's to make a Fly DC20 to avoid being checked and a Fly DC25 to avoid being Blown Away. That's not too shabby, and I have not even tried to find other bonuses to Fly. Yes, being blown away is a concern, but not a bad one.
- You'd have to move into an opponents square to attack which means you provoke every time
Spring Attack or Lunge fixes that.
- Your CMD would be ridiculously low
Absolutely. Grab ranks in Escape Artist to get out of grapples.
- Your damage output would be very low and anything with any DR what so ever will mean you barely scratch an enemy
- This would limit you to only special attacks and maneuvers
Yup, this is not a damage-heavy concept. But Amulet of Mighty Fists for an energy type blows right past DR. Amulet of Cold does 1d6 for 5K gp, and one of Shocking Cold is 20K. At level 6 Shadowdancer, your Major Magic Talent gives you two Chill Touches per day, for another 1d6 energy damage per hit. Add in Stunning Fist, Scorpion Strike, and the Gorgon and Medusa feats. And all that is just pure Core. The Elemental Fist feat in the APG adds another 1d6 energy damage. Touch of Serenity is good too.
I'm not saying any of this makes you great. Just viable.
- Any spell like Web or anything that entagles will be highly effective against you
Huh? Your saves are fine. You have your escape artist ranks. And at higher levels you can use the Shadowdancer Shadow Jump in many cases to escape.
- Unless you take feats like hover, flyby attack and wingover, your aerial mobility will constantly put you in harms way. So there's a feat sink there.
The Pathfinder Fly skill makes all those feats redundant with a decent Fly mod. With the +21 mod I calculated for level 5 above, you can hover, stall, turn, and go straight up all without any chance of failure.
- And then theres all the dispel and anti magic field stuff.
Granted. But then, what character does not fear those?
IMO not worth it at all.
An absolutely reasonable opinion. :-) I appreciate the feedback.
Thoughts and questions.
- Hmm, can you use lunge with unarmed strike? If you can that's awesome.
- Does Spring Attack work for flying creatures? Without looking it up I would guess yes. But if that's the case then what's the point of the Flyby attack feat?
- You're right, your fly skill will be excellent. But it doesn't make those feats redundant. Unless you take hover you'll never get a full attack off. Making a fly check to hover is a move action without the feat. We have a flyer in our group and ran into these issues until he got hover.
- As far as Web and such goes, yeah your saves will be high enough to evade them most times. I was thinking of how tough it would be for you to get out of such a spell. But then again if you get hit by it no matter what you're playing I guess you're kinda humped anyway.
It is viable. I think a monk bear would be fun too. Just for the visual of a bear in a combat style stance. :)
What's the point of the Flyby attack feat?
If I did not also have to take the Spring Attack prereqs for Shadowdancer, I would have judged the cost too high. Also, with Flyby attack you can make any standard action while moving, such as breath fire or shoot tail spikes or cast a spell.
I think a monk bear would be fun too. Just for the visual of a bear in a combat style stance. :)
A shadow-dancing-bear! :-)
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Fly-by Attack is useful for a flying creature that has a special attack that uses a standard action like a breath weapon or even vital strike with reach to get those off in the middle of their move action. Otherwise normally they'd have to use the standard action either before they move or after. It's good for making strafing runs basically.
Spring attack is a full round action that negates AoO's for moving out of or through your target's threatened spaces. At first I thought entering an opponents space was a different trigger than moving through threatened spaces but its close enough and fits the rule of cool IMO.
--Vrock and Awe
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Couple things for you to consider:
Flight is a no action skill, so you can hover with a skill roll just fine (+14 mod, hover automatically) more difficult in high winds, get higher fly.
As a monk you add your Wis to CMD, this can balance out the penalties from the lower size/str. Consider feats like Step Up so you can stay in the square and AoO if they try to grapple, if its grab special, increase your AC.
Get an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, for only 4k (new AoMF cost) you can add your dex mod rather than your str mod to damage with unarmed strikes or natural attacks. Now that bat form is adding 3 to your damage rather than subtracting two.
Spring attack doesn't work, moving into an opponent's square is a separate provocation. Since the Acrobatics skill mentions moving through an opponents square and avoiding an AoO its possible that that skill will work, not sure though.
Important feat suggestions - Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike (Power attack for finesse), AC boosting feats things like Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte are nice and fit well with Monk, Lunge is nice as well. One fun one would be to Start as a Martial Artist to be neutral and pick up Urban Barbarian levels. Grab the rage power that generates claws and throw on a Helm of the Mammoth Lords. Now you have 4 primary natural attacks and an additional 4 dex when raging.
Gaining a way to get into your favored form without relying on a spellcaster outside your party would be really nice. If you don't have a 20th level mage buddy maybe you could just be a Druid/Rogue who turns into a giant octopus and makes 9 sneak attacks.