As DM in Pathfinder and him as a PC I know he loves to stretch rules, and has to be 'watched' on occassion when he rolls dice, but now we are playing Skull and Shackles and we are both PCs but he keeps bragging to the DM how he is going into the Shadow dancer prestige class, and is going to get repeating crossbows and do a ton of damage, criting. He is right now a lvl 5 character I think 3/2 Ranger/Rouge. I might have that backwards though.
He also claims he can get a crit of 10-12 by having a keen katana and improved crit, but I'm pretty sure they don't stack.
He builds all his characters in Hero Labs, so I don't know wheter or not it's him seriously bsing, something in Hero Labs missleading him or what.
I still build my characters with books, pen and pencil...so...I'm more then a little biased against computer programs in the first place, but his bragging and 'tendencies' are getting on my nerves.
"Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.
Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon."
Yeah is someone is going to take a feat its best they read the feat first. This isn't even in the realm of "possibly missed something" or a vague rules. It is flat out spelled out word for word in the feat.
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You are correct: they don't stack. I believe they say so explicitly.
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This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
This benefit doesn't stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
So on an so forth... Gonna get this in before the ceaseless waves of "BOOT HIM FROM THE GROUP OR WALK" posts.
Crit threat range effects do not stack.
Woah. Many ninjas today.
This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.This benefit doesn't stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).So on an so forth... Gonna get this in before the ceaseless waves of "BOOT HIM FROM THE GROUP OR WALK" posts.
While I would not go that far I do think people should not have to waste time and energy babysitting someone to make sure they don't cheat. This one isn't even really trying on the cheaters part its so blatant.
Hero Labs does allow you to toggle an option where you can include the house rule that allows keen and improved critical to stack.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt I would suggest he has accidentally turned this on.
There is a house rules checkbox in Hero Lab that allows you stack keen and improved critical, but it is a house rule. By RAW (very explicitly stated, as shown by previous posters) they do not.
Check with your GM as to whether that house rule is in play, if it's not the best he can get is a threat range of 15-20.
That might be it then Klumz, the only time he has access to the books is when he is at my house, otherwise Hero Labs is his only source.
Well that and d20pfsrd site, but I'm not sure how often he checks that.
But Chemlak how is he getting 15-20 A keen katana would be 17-20 wouldn't it?
Katana is 18-20 on the crit range, so 3 possibilities going down to 15-20 when doubled.
It's a good'un.
Katana is 18-20. Keen Katana is double that, 15-20.
- Gauss
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I have said it once and I will say it again: "DO NOT RELY SOLELY ON HERO LAB!" All it takes is an incorrect setting to cause issues (and there have been some minor instances of other errors that have been seen in one of the groups I play with). Sure build it in HL, but then print it and DOUBLE CHECK IT.
I honestly don't think your friend is cheating, but he really should pick up either a digital or dead tree version of the CRB and read through the rules, not just the feat summaries (especially if he is GMing).
Quick note so that you aren't confused by double crit range OP:
Weapons with 20 when doubled are 19-20 (so add in 1)
Weapons with 19-20 when doubled are 17-20 (so add in 2)
Weapons with 18-20 when doubled are 15-20 (so add in 3)
The others above are correct and have cited the rules about improved critical and keen, so most people have one or the other since they DO NOT stack.
I have HL as well and it doesn't break that particular rule, unless he is messing with the files associated with it to ignore the rule somehow, otherwise it will calculate crit range correctly.
Your friend is either BS'ing you guys, doesn't understand the rules, or both.
Just to further explain how keen and improved critical works...ub3r n3rd spelled out what each one goes to but some people in your group may want an exact explanation
When you double the threat range you are doubling the total number of sides of the d20 that the weapon crits on...the "range" is what confusing some people
For a 18-20 weapon...it crits on 3 numbers 18,19, and 20...you count those out...so that is a 3
Doubling that is 6, so you count out six numbers to get 15,16,17,18,19, and 20
Hope this helps you to explain how it works now :)
How the heck does anyone do "tons of damage" with Repeating Crossbows?
Well I suppose a Paladin with a Crossbow, Rapid Reload, Improved Critical, and Falcon's Aim bracers would do pretty well.
That might be it then Klumz, the only time he has access to the books is when he is at my house, otherwise Hero Labs is his only source.
Well that and d20pfsrd site, but I'm not sure how often he checks that.
But Chemlak how is he getting 15-20 A keen katana would be 17-20 wouldn't it?
Tell him to exclusively use d20pfsrd =P
How the heck does anyone do "tons of damage" with Repeating Crossbows?
How does any Ranger/Rogue build become a major damage dealer?
Have you asked for copies of all the player's sheets?
By misunderstanding what "major damage" is and falling for the "rolling lots of d6s means I'm doing lots of damage" fallacy.
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That might be it then Klumz, the only time he has access to the books is when he is at my house, otherwise Hero Labs is his only source.
Well that and d20pfsrd site, but I'm not sure how often he checks that.
But Chemlak how is he getting 15-20 A keen katana would be 17-20 wouldn't it?
If he has played in 3.0 and then moved to Pathfinder it could be an honest error.
3.0 allowed the stacking of keen and improved critical (and some other ability too). With some prestige class mixing it was possible to go as low as getting a critical on 10+, maybe even lower.|
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why paladin?How the heck does anyone do "tons of damage" with Repeating Crossbows?
Well I suppose a Paladin with a Crossbow, Rapid Reload, Improved Critical, and Falcon's Aim bracers would do pretty well.
Tell him to exclusively use d20pfsrd =PThat might be it then Klumz, the only time he has access to the books is when he is at my house, otherwise Hero Labs is his only source.
Well that and d20pfsrd site, but I'm not sure how often he checks that.
But Chemlak how is he getting 15-20 A keen katana would be 17-20 wouldn't it?
vs. enemy target of a smite
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I have said it once and I will say it again: "DO NOT RELY SOLELY ON HERO LAB!" All it takes is an incorrect setting to cause issues (and there have been some minor instances of other errors that have been seen in one of the groups I play with). Sure build it in HL, but then print it and DOUBLE CHECK IT.
I honestly don't think your friend is cheating, but he really should pick up either a digital or dead tree version of the CRB and read through the rules, not just the feat summaries (especially if he is GMing).
Hero Lab does include the full text for class features, feats, spells, etc., but you have to read it.
I use the exact same speech for Hero Lab that I used to give my students about spell check/grammar check:
Tools assume you know what you're doing. If you don't know what the rules are, when they apply, and what the exceptions are, then spell check/grammar check/Hero Lab will not help you very much. If you think you can blow off learning the rules because you have spell check/grammar check/Hero Lab, the tool can actually hurt you. Buying a high-quality hammer doesn't suddenly make you drive a nail straight or prevent you from smashing your finger.
They're tools, not brains.
This is why I dislike Hero Lab. The sneakability and unreliability of it.
I had a player whose character was a wizard in my Jade Regent game. During one of the first encounters he cast Ill Omen-- and I immediately noticed and said, "Isn't that a witch spell?" and we looked it up, confirmed. He told us that he just took it because it looked cool, guess he didn't see it, etcetera, picked by accident in HeroLab, he'd choose something else.
After the game, the players told me I was kind of gullible. In HeroLab, he has sorc/wiz spells available to him only. To see ill omen, he has to actually go to the witch spell list, click on it, agree that he's not a witch, find ill omen, agree that it's not a sorc/wiz spell and that he's houseruling... and then it adds it to his sheet.
The worst part is you just can't prove it wasn't HeroLab because, who knows? It could have been. It's an excellent scapegoat for rules f*~@ery.
This is why I dislike Hero Lab. The sneakability and unreliability of it.
I had a player whose character was a wizard in my Jade Regent game. During one of the first encounters he cast Ill Omen-- and I immediately noticed and said, "Isn't that a witch spell?" and we looked it up, confirmed. He told us that he just took it because it looked cool, guess he didn't see it, etcetera, picked by accident in HeroLab, he'd choose something else.
After the game, the players told me I was kind of gullible. In HeroLab, he has sorc/wiz spells available to him only. To see ill omen, he has to actually go to the witch spell list, click on it, agree that he's not a witch, find ill omen, agree that it's not a sorc/wiz spell and that he's houseruling... and then it adds it to his sheet.
The worst part is you just can't prove it wasn't HeroLab because, who knows? It could have been. It's an excellent scapegoat for rules f&$%ery.
Huh. For Mutants and Masterminds I noticed it would put a warning on the character sheet if there was conflicts...Doesn't do it for Pathfinder, would be a good idea if they did.
ya....this is another example of why a DM should always check players' sheets before starting to make sure they didn't make an honest mistake or in this case try to get one by you.Right I took everyone for face value when I DMed Kingmaker, but if I ever DM again I'm going to have people turn in thier sheets. But he rarely has a printed copy, he plays the sheet on his laptop for the most part.
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What amuses me about some users of Hero Lab is how they claim it is accurate. It is far from accurate and even if the player is not 'houseruling' things it can be wrong. I find that if you make the character from scratch, yourself, you learn more about what goes into it than if you just make it via hero lab.
- Gauss
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Herolab is awesome.
And writing things down on a piece of paper which are not true is actually much easier than messing around with herolab settings.
Obviously, you need to check your results and have an understanding of the rules.
Herolab just saves time and means I don't need to flick through my entire collection.
@Gauss
That depends on what you mean by 'far from accurate'. My experience is that Herolab is far more accurate than most of my players.
When they make and update characters I give them a once over and check them in Herolab.
If there is a conflict then I check the rules for the area of conflict.
Herolab is correct almost every time.
This is not players trying to cheat, they've just made mathematical errors or forgotten how two rules inter-relate: it's a complex system.
It can be fun sometimes to say to players: "Actually, you have +6 to hit, not +4."
Pfft. So far, he's guilty of trash-talking and not understanding how the rules work.
That's not even cheating, which is fun.
This is why I dislike Hero Lab. The sneakability and unreliability of it.
I had a player whose character was a wizard in my Jade Regent game. During one of the first encounters he cast Ill Omen-- and I immediately noticed and said, "Isn't that a witch spell?" and we looked it up, confirmed. He told us that he just took it because it looked cool, guess he didn't see it, etcetera, picked by accident in HeroLab, he'd choose something else.
After the game, the players told me I was kind of gullible. In HeroLab, he has sorc/wiz spells available to him only. To see ill omen, he has to actually go to the witch spell list, click on it, agree that he's not a witch, find ill omen, agree that it's not a sorc/wiz spell and that he's houseruling... and then it adds it to his sheet.
The worst part is you just can't prove it wasn't HeroLab because, who knows? It could have been. It's an excellent scapegoat for rules f~#!ery.
Just did a quick check on my own hero lab, and hero lab lists ill omen in the wizard spell list, no modifications necessary. There's no indication in hero lab that its witch only, all it says about the spell is its an enchantment from the APG, so I don't think your player did this deliberately.
Actually, now I have to email my GM and tell him I need to remove Ill omen from my own spell book :( Good to find it out before I'd used it in combat I guess.Hero lab has its issues, there are quite a few mislabeled spells and mispriced items etc. It definitely needs double checking often.
Despite that, it does save me a lot of time making characters and especially when running games. My favorite features are the way it can recalculate all the maths with changing modifiers on the fly. I consider it an almost necessary tool to GM with, nearly as important as the Core rule book.
But yes, it still needs double checking.
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Quick request regarding Hero Lab errors: Please REPORT bugs when you encounter them. That's the only way we'll know what we missed during our own testing. We strive to fix bugs quickly when they're reported, but we can't fix bugs we don't know about. :)
Pathfinder is an incredibly complex system and continues get more complicated with each new book. We're bound to miss things, despite pretty extensive testing.
Please use the link below to report bugs directly to the development team:
Pathfinder Bug Reports for Hero Lab
Thanks in advance for your help in enabling us to make Hero Lab as bullet proof as possible by reporting the bugs we miss!!
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Emphasis mine and the point that was being made. Herolab in not 100% accurate all the time which supports the stance of "do not rely solely on HeroLab." If you are going to use the tool, verify it's results.
Herolab is correct almost every time.
And how have I disagreed with that? You could have made the point by quoting mine with just a +1. Instead you imply some kind of disagreement. Very weird.
My opening words to Gauss were: "That depends on what you mean by 'far from accurate'. My experience is that Herolab is far more accurate than most of my players."
Please, don't misrepresent another Paizonian's posts.
Sometimes... internets... [/shakes head]
Geraint, not long ago I went through a publisher's adventure and noticed enough errors that I started analyzing it. In a 2 level adventure I found in the neighborhood of 55 errors with the NPCs. When I contacted the publisher about the errors I was informed that they used Herolab so it should all be accurate.
My point is not that Herolab is correct X amount of the time. It is that people say it is always correct, and then it is not. There is almost always at least one error in the statblock herolab puts out. Due to this, I will not pay for a product that is then incorrect often enough where I have to build it by hand just to make sure it was correct.
Note: This is a personal choice on my part. Again, the only problem I have with Herolab is the claim that people make that it is 100% accurate.
- Gauss
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Emphasis mine and the point that was being made. Herolab in not 100% accurate all the time which supports the stance of "do not rely solely on HeroLab." If you are going to use the tool, verify it's results.
Herolab is correct almost every time.And how have I disagreed with that? You could have made the point by quoting mine with just a +1. Instead you imply some kind of disagreement. Very weird.
My opening words to Gauss were: "That depends on what you mean by 'far from accurate'. My experience is that Herolab is far more accurate than most of my players."
Please, don't misrepresent another Paizonian's posts.
Sometimes... internets... [/shakes head]
Sorry GE, misunderstood the intent of your post ... from the initial reading I took it to mean that you viewed HeroLab as a far more accurate means of character generation than actually doing it "by hand". My point was that HeroLab is far from perfect and that relying upon a tool instead of actually getting into the rules crunch when building a PC leads to far more issues than not.
Geraint, not long ago I went through a publisher's adventure and noticed enough errors that I started analyzing it. In a 2 level adventure I found in the neighborhood of 55 errors with the NPCs. When I contacted the publisher about the errors I was informed that they used Herolab so it should all be accurate.
Would you mind telling me the specific publisher and adventure - offlist - so that I can investigate what went sideways here? This is completely counter to what our experience has been, so we need to figure out what's going on. Please contact me at rob {at} wolflair [dot] com with the details.
Thanks!
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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My experience with errors and Herolab is that most of the errors are the fault of the person building the character. Because six other players I game with use Hero Lab, I am often helping others figure out what when wrong.
Example:
The skills are lower than they should be. The reason: The user forgot to tell Hero Lab to not calculate gold weight and now the character is under heavy encumbrance.
I have also noticed cases where something like a spell adjustment was clicked and forgotten, Power Attack was left on when the player didn't want to use it (or it was left on and forgotten and then the player tried to apply it a second time,) and the player used a feat or ability that Hero Lab doesn't calculate but thought it did. A good example of the last one is using a lance on horseback while charging. Hero Lab doesn't double (or triple if using Spirited Charge,) a lance's damage on a mounted charge.
Hero Lab does make less mistakes than I and my fellow players have. I once put in a character that I had kept a paper record for and found that I have been far off on a few things.
That doesn't mean that Hero Lab is perfect. While in my experience, it rarely makes a mistake (which you can easily report and find fixed in the next update,) it doesn't always make it clear where the math is coming from. For example, when I first started using it a couple of years ago it would tell me what my AC, CMB, CMD, or saves were but it wouldn't tell me what buffs or penalties were being applied. This often resulted in my GM telling me that because I couldn't tell him why something was so high I had to go with a number he came up with. I found his reasoning sound because a player should be able to tell a GM the specific math on a character's different abilities.
Hero Lab has gotten better with telling you the math. I recently noticed that it will give you the break down of AC when you mouse over it. However, it still doesn't do that for pretty much everything else. It would help a great deal in finding those errors (human or HL made,) if it would give you break downs for everything.
As an actual response to the OP: He is more than likely BSing you. Ask him to bring up Hero Lab for you and let you look at his character on that program. When he does that, go to the Character menu at the top, open up Configure Hero (or use Control+K) and look at what boxes he has checked on the right side of the window that pops up. One of them is a house rule that allows Keen and Improved Crit to stack. He probably has that clicked. Do this in front of the GM.
Remind him that you don't find gaming with cheaters fun in any way. While he may find it fun and pleasing to "beat the system," all he is doing is lying to and cheating his friends.
I just got HeroLab as a a GM tool, because building high-level fully legal characters is time-consuming. HL cuts down the prep time for me by about 85%. Totally worth it.
So far I have not noticed any errors beyond questionable warnings, and certainly none in the numerical calculations for attack, defense, CMB/CMD (although I haven't put any monk archetypes together, and the calculations get weird there) which I have spot checked.
As for the penchant of publishers and others to blame HeroLab, I suspect a good amount of that is "the dog ate my homework." Sure, blame a computer. This *so* sounds like a white lie that ... the best response might be to ask for the trouble ticket / defect report number :-) (whatever the good folk who do HeroLab call their bug-tracking entries).
I don't know if a person is 'cheating' or not; cheating is a question of intent, and it's simply not feasible to detect intent over the internet -- it's hard enough in meatspace. You can know, however, that the character does not conform to whatever combination of RAW+House Rules you use, and take steps to make the character conform.
And when the psychic cost of taking those steps outweighs the pleasures of gaming with that person ... well, it's time to take additional steps.
Good luck with your situation. May it resolve favorably for you.
MI
I want to make a clarification as to an earlier post I made:
The errors in the module I mentioned are not at any greater rate than other NPCs or PCs that I typically see from HL. Usually about 2-4 on average. It has been pointed out to me that without at least a rate of error that the information I stated could be misconstrued.
I just want to point out again that I find HL to have fewer errors than most personally assembled sheets (either personal or publisher) and that my problem is NOT with HL as a product for people. It is with the idea that people assume it is always accurate.
Malachite is also correct regarding the hard number combat mechanic errors in that I rarely see them in HL sheets. He is also correct that many such errors are probably user generated rather than HL generated. But when people think it is 100% accurate they do not look for user generated or HL generated errors. It is that point I was trying to get across.
- Gauss