Hey all.
So as you can see by my lack of stars, I do not GM that much for PFS, I do play a lot tho.
Anyway recently I was thinking about something and wanted your opinions on it.
We play in a organised play campaign, that should mean that your experience playing under GM 1 is about the same as under GM 2. (not identical, but closeish)
But we all know that some GMs kill more characters then others, look to Kyle for a good example.
When I PC I Hate when I can tell the GM is pulling punches. With out the risk of PC death where is the fun?
As a result, when I GM I play the monsters by the tactics written, but they make good decisions, use good tactics and generally try to win (the NPCs not me). Mind you this is only intelligent creatures, Animals and such act as an animal would.
I roll the dice and let the results stand.
However this results is quite a few dead PCs.
More then I see most GMs cause.
So I am left with 2 possible reasons.
1. I am doing something wrong.
2. Other GMs fudge so the PCs always win.
So what is the answer?
Do you fudge to let the PCs live?
Do you avoid charging the squishey mage and instead charge the tin can Pali?
Am I just a dick?
Thanks for the advice.
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This is very table dependent.
I will pull punches if:
a) level 1 character/table
b) New players that don't quite understand all the rules / tactics of play
I will play by the tactics described but sometimes make non-optimal choices as the flow of combat dictates:
a) Most of the time (experienced players, lvl 2 and up, decided to play down when given option)
Some tables will be a combination of these two types of play - especially if a lvl 1 character's only choice of playing is with a group of higher lvl.
I will play by the tactics described but also make optimal choices within those tactics:
a) Table is full of cheese monsters
b) Table decides to play up, fully accepting the risks and rewards that come with the decision.
This being said, I GM in the open so I do not fudge dice. The best I can do is make optimal / non-optimal choices and then let the dice fly. Even if I am pulling punches, this can kill a player.
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Hey all.
So as you can see by my lack of stars, I do not GM that much for PFS, I do play a lot tho.
Anyway recently I was thinking about something and wanted your opinions on it.
We play in a organised play campaign, that should mean that your experience playing under GM 1 is about the same as under GM 2. (not identical, but closeish)But we all know that some GMs kill more characters then others, look to Kyle for a good example.
When I PC I Hate when I can tell the GM is pulling punches. With out the risk of PC death where is the fun?
As a result, when I GM I play the monsters by the tactics written, but they make good decisions, use good tactics and generally try to win (the NPCs not me). Mind you this is only intelligent creatures, Animals and such act as an animal would.
I roll the dice and let the results stand.However this results is quite a few dead PCs.
More then I see most GMs cause.So I am left with 2 possible reasons.
1. I am doing something wrong.
2. Other GMs fudge so the PCs always win.So what is the answer?
Do you fudge to let the PCs live?
Do you avoid charging the squishey mage and instead charge the tin can Pali?
Am I just a dick?Thanks for the advice.
I don't pull punches. The PCs in my PFS home group can almost always handle it. The PCs in my PFS gamestore group can almost always handle it. At cons, the experience varies wildly (from overpowered beyond either group to unable to handle the scenario), but with Season 4 scenarios, I've found that I do tend to have deaths at cons regularly, whereas they are much rarer with the other two groups.
Now that said, I'll sometimes have my NPCs choose to not hit downed characters with area attacks if it's clear that the party isn't going to wake up that character mid-fight. Particularly if the motivation of the enemy is such that slavery, torture for information, or other uses for a captive are a factor. But the ones who are up and active get no such consideration (and if you prove yourself to have a cleric or something who keeps yo-yoing you up on your feet and I can't drop the cleric, I will strike your unconscious body).
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I am with RE on this one. I will very rarely pull punches (and by that I DON'T mean actively trying to kill PCs) and will try to roleplay the character to the best of my ability. Most intelligent bad guys in scenarios have a motivation and backstory written somewhere in the adventure. As a GM, I know what their motivation is and how to engage the PCs (this is usually depicted in their tactics section. usually.).
I have, like Labrat, cut new groups of players a bit of slack. That said, I will still roll in the open, and if I roll and confirm a nat 20 with a halfling barbarian, then that's what happens. I will only vary the tactics though, not fudge.
That said, I will still roll in the open, and if I roll and confirm a nat 20 with a halfling barbarian, then that's what happens. I will only vary the tactics though, not fudge.
This happened the first time I ran that....
I't like a 5% chance per round that a PC dies every time you run it.
I really appreciate the advice guys.
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However this results is quite a few dead PCs.
More then I see most GMs cause.
If the other GMs are pulling punches, or just not very effective in combat with the NPCs, then the players may be used to getting away with sloppy tactics. That could explain why your death toll is higher in comparison.
I don't pull punches, but I am terrible at playing bosses. I'd like to blame lack of preparation, as I've been a last-minute backup GM the past several times, but I think I'm just not very good at dealing with a swarm of 4 - 6 PCs beating me down.
As a player, I want my GMs to challenge me. I tried to get a GM to help me get the Risen Guard on my Osirion, but sadly, she lived all the way to retirement.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I mix the tactics with the situation, but I don't try to kill PCs. I let the dice and the PCs do that. For example in <redacted> The BBEG had put up mirror image because he had been watching 'Sir Grabs a lot'
I agree with you that pulling punches is not my definition of fun. Neither is intentionally killing PCs. Heck, I felt kind of guilty about killing a PC's familiar, even if he did earn it.
Don't forget to play the badguys not only intelligently, but with the information they give. In the above scenario, if there had been a magus in the party, and the fight he watched the magus didn't channel, don't let the BBEG counter the channelling. Likewise, if the Barbarian didn't rage, the BBEG won't lead off with calm emotions.
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Thefurmonger
There is also a third option - I know the scenario and try to avoid having to pull punches by doing the 'right' scenario with the 'right' group (or at least avoid doing the wrong one). The below is mainly done locally here. My house is the local PFS group. So I know all players and characters.
Many of the earlier scenarios are easier. Build up characters level 1 with simple tier 1-2. Do the really tough ones when they have an APL of 2.2 and not 1.2.
Do the easy ones when you only have a small table (3 players plus Pregen, 4 players) and do some of the rough ones when you have a stronger table.
I also try to help utterly underprepared groups to be able to rectify any short comings. I was doing Dawn of the Scarlet Sun for my 150/151 credit. At the start of the scenario there was only a single character at the table able to overcome DR of the BBEG.
But part of the scenario involves figuring out what is happening. I took a lot of care to play this out, not to rush it, give opportunity to be prepared. They didn't get it all right - they barked up a few wrong trees - but once we reached the last encounter it wasn't a choice of - do I pull punches or it's TPK - the group had evolved during play.
One very important aspect here is - allow to get equipment during an adventure. The right scroll, oil, etc. can make a huge difference.
If in doubt - allow knowledge skills. Even prompt them if you have a weak group that should know better but is walking to their slaughter just because they are not prepared. Here is another example:
Knowledge local if you are on the way to the Chelaxian Embassy - Cheliax are Devil worshippers. Knowledge planes - the two most common weapon types against these critters are x and y. You are going into the Andoran woods - they are full of fey and lycanthropes, etc.
And yes - there is a market just 5 minute detour on your way. and Btw - do you have enough healing with you.
This avoids later necessities to pull punches. And yes - if they got the 'wrong' type of weapon - guess they will need it a few scenarios down the line.
I never try to give more away as one of the VCs in the first steps when they try to give advice. And I even ask to roll appropriate knowledge skills - albeit some of the above DCs are very low.
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Labrat pretty much nailed it.
I've never really had to softball tactics as cannonfodder goes down too fast and bosses are overwhelmed and dogpiled by the PCs' actions-per-round advantage.
Season 4 scenarios have given me the best options to challenge players (Runecarved Key, Refuge of Time & Fortress of the Nail specifically) but they ride the challenging-verging-into-TPK knife's edge...often coming down to a few rolls.
Also, every time I try to kill Redward, he just won't cooperate and refuses to die.
edit: grammar...because I have issues reading today.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I generally try to pull back a bit for tables that are at the low end of a level range or that are comprised of entirely new players. I only do this, however, if the party is near death already. At the vast majority of my tables, I have had to fudge nothing and the party breezed through without difficulty.
I generally try to pull back a bit for tables that are at the low end of a level range or that are comprised of entirely new players.
And I hear this a lot.
Really this is one of my questions. Should we be doing this?
In a organised play campaign should we coddle players that for example decide to play tier 4-5 when they are all 3rd level?
I honestly don't know.
thus far I have been going with "Made bed=Sleep in it"
but I think I'm in the minority.
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I generally try to pull back a bit for tables that are at the low end of a level range or that are comprised of entirely new players.And I hear this a lot.
Really this is one of my questions. Should we be doing this?
In a organised play campaign should we coddle players that for example decide to play tier 4-5 when they are all 3rd level?
I honestly don't know.
thus far I have been going with "Made bed=Sleep in it"
but I think I'm in the minority.
I try not to scare away new guys. But I agree that if a group chooses to play up, they're asking for it. I actually only GMed a group playing up once, and they (barely) got out ok. But that was a mixed group, with a couple in tier and a couple below tier. It was subtier 4-5 of a 1-5, and I came really close to killing two of the level 2 PCs.
I don't fudge dice, but I will adjust tactics to pull punches occasionally. But again, mostly just to avoid scaring away new guys by killing off the low level PCs.
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If someone chooses to play up that's one thing: both barrels to the face. They asked for it.
But if you're a level 1 in a group with 5 5's you're a victim of circumstance. There's not much you can do vs something walking over to you and dealing more HP's than you have, or getting sent from conscious to corpse in one hit.
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I generally try to pull back a bit for tables that are at the low end of a level range or that are comprised of entirely new players.And I hear this a lot.
Really this is one of my questions. Should we be doing this?
An experienced GM who is not me can wipe the floor with an unprepared party. It doesn't mean they necessarily should. The whole idea is to present a challenge and have fun.
I could have killed them. Maybe I should have. But...
1) I was on short prep. Like about 45 minutes total. I'm not comfortable wiping a party when I'm winging it like that. Which is good, because it turned out I had not properly tuned it down for 4 players (they still would have died)
2) At that level, they don't have the resources to come back. So it's 4 players, all relatively new to PFS, with their first and only characters dead. That's a tough pill to swallow.
So I gave them a break. If they'd been higher level, like around 7, I wouldn't have blinked. They should know better, and they should have the resources banked to come back. As is, they learned their lesson.
When players come in optimized for carnage and ready for a fight, I say don't hold back*.
*But maybe be careful, because the delicate RP-flower in the back might not have signed on for a ride in the Coupe de Grace.
I really appreciate all the advice guys.
I think it's down to GM style. And while it rubs me the wrong way to have that much variation, it looks like that's just the way of things.
I think I am just going to continue like I have been and just try not to pull tier 1-2 tables.
I'm just going to run like I would like my GMs to, Smart, Harsh and let me know I deserved to win.
I hate sitting down for a table of PFRPG and feeling like I ended up with My Little Pony the RPG.
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S'funny, I am now running both online (with all DM dice rolls shown) and live PFS games, and I the only PC I've killed so far was at a live table, and I had the choice to pull the punch and didn't. They were playing up AND had gotten a warning that the boss fight was a monster front rank type. I think I woulda pulled the punch if the character in question had made allowances for it by fighting defensively or using hit and run tactics, but he went toe to toe.
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Only at level one play, only with new players.
Level 4 (pregen) play with new players, anarchy and death awaits. I liked Dawn of the Scarlet Sun.
New player death at 1st level can drive away players. Pre-gen death equals a learning session.
Running from a fight should always be a tactic for player's.
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I have fudged once, it was a player completely new this kind of game. I didn't pull punches with the tactics, but when after I had knocked him unconscious once, friend ran up and poured a potion down his throat. His friend got clobbered. They both tried bluff and play dead, he rolled a 2 friend rolled 18. Big bad then chops the one who failed, crit max damage and confirmed with max damage. 32 damage at tier 1-2. I didn't even tell him the damage. I just asked what his con score was, and put him a couple of points away. Gave him and his party a couple of turns and lets them feel like they had a chance.
Here is my stance on it. We need players, and we desperately need GMs. Players come first, if we go around roflstomping players they will stop playing and then never GM.
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One thing that's helpful to remember is that most enemies do not know how many Pathfinders the Society has sent after them. There is no logical reason why they would nova all of their resources on the PCs unless they are assured that this is their first and only fight that day.
I don't count it as 'fudging' if the enemy is leaving some of their high level spells, scrolls or potions free in order to get home once they're done slaying the idiotic adventurers that have just barged in.
I roll out in the open and I cackle loudly when I get a 20 :D
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I will fudge damage to people playing PFS for the first time to avoid killing them. I will even warn them if they get healed and put themselves in a bad position, but if they ignore the warning they are fair game.
I have also fudged damage on a character that I killed the previous two scenarios, as he did not have the resources for another raise dead, and the local gaming store did not have enough players to continue playing the mid level scenarios without him.
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Depends on the situation.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Well, part of the reason that I pull punches with new players is because 3/4 of my early scenarios were EXTREMELY difficult, and it made me feel as if the game was unwinnable.
1) First Steps. Had to surrender to the thing that everybody surrenders to.
2) Voice in the Void. Near TPK at tier 1-2.
I very nearly quit after that third experience. Since then, I don't think I've ever been in serious danger of dying. I wouldn't mind a bit more challenge sometimes, but I don't like feeling that things are so overwhelmingly difficult that I'll never be able to do it. At first level, especially for casters, it's very easy to feel that way. Just some food for thought.
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I run a combat to build tension and keep folks on edge, but I do pull punches. NPCs don't use maximal tactics always because PC's don't either. Especially with deep RP folk at the table, who make suboptimal tactical decisions when they know better.
Moreover, the adventure is often stacked against characters. Buildings often seem to be built not for livability, but rather in expectation of some sort of riot. Wizards often are statted with minutes per level buffs... and no way of knowing when a a party will walk through a door. ("okay guys, giant rune encrusted door at the end of a hall... lunch break!").
For a skill heavy, combat light party, I encourage diplomatic solutions, use of terrain, etc.)
If there is an AC tank in the party I will focus on them... at least for a few rounds.
I prefer to pull my punches in advance by running easier scenarios instead of harder scenarios.
I do not understand the above comment. Spoiler a reply if you feel the need, but I know of nothing in any of the three First Steps scenario that you COULD surrender to that would in any way help, or even change any of the outcomes......snipping to save space....
1) First Steps. Had to surrender to the thing that everybody surrenders to.
...snipping to save space...
I'm really curious as well, maybe...
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I do not understand the above comment. Spoiler a reply if you feel the need, but I know of nothing in any of the three First Steps scenario that you COULD surrender to that would in any way help, or even change any of the outcomes......snipping to save space....
1) First Steps. Had to surrender to the thing that everybody surrenders to.
...snipping to save space...
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** spoiler omitted **I do not understand the above comment. Spoiler a reply if you feel the need, but I know of nothing in any of the three First Steps scenario that you COULD surrender to that would in any way help, or even change any of the outcomes......snipping to save space....
1) First Steps. Had to surrender to the thing that everybody surrenders to.
...snipping to save space...
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I hardly ever change dice rolls or tactics, unless I've made a mistake I can't quickly track or the tactic plan can't be followed.
I think the run as written rule needs to be more clearly defined to be able to give us all a similar playing experience. I know the commonsense rule applies, but that doesn't help us in running near-identical scenarios. If that's not the strategy, then we should do away with the run as written rule altogether.
And GMs actually need to run the games as written, of course.
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I run a combat to build tension and keep folks on edge, but I do pull punches. NPCs don't use maximal tactics always because PC's don't either. Especially with deep RP folk at the table, who make suboptimal tactical decisions when they know better.
I am the same. If possible, I take the party to the razor's edge, which I do with quite a bit of regularity.
I use suboptimal tactics toward the end of fights if needed, but I hate using suboptimal tactics at the beginning, as that tends to make things a cakewalk. I will pull punches discreetly with my mental math to keep characters alive, because once one dies a lot more tend to follow in my experience.For example, the last group I ran had every party member with less than 10 hp at 10-11. No deaths. There was much cheering when the bad guy went down.
Another story, a good party ran into an encounter that clearly shouldn't have been in the mod as it didn't make any sense and it is a know tpk spot. At any rate, I played up the low intelligence of the beast and had it chasing and dropping whoever hit it last. I think I dropped everyone in the party 1-3 times, but no deaths. Again, much cheering when it died. If I would have just sat there and let it full attack the party, it would have been a tpk without any doubt.
With that said, I know someone will quickly tell me I need to kill more people so that my parties can have more fun. I simply don't agree.
It's fun to be afraid of a tpk. It's not fun to be tpked. Deaths should be epic, not "some mook crit me at level 3 with an axe".
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and if you prove yourself to have a cleric or something who keeps yo-yoing you up on your feet and I can't drop the cleric, I will strike your unconscious body
I've had this happen a couple of times, and the cleric always looks at me like I'm killing their baby. If the bad guy puts you down, he means for you to stay down. If your cleric friend heals you up to 2 hp while you're lying on the ground next to the bad guy, the bad guy is going to make sure you stay down.
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I play everything as is, roll all dice in front of PCs, never pull punches, however I sometimes forget some aspect of combats because I'm focusing to much on the RP.
I find when I run things as written everything works out pretty well. The PC's feel the threat of dying and yet in the end they succeed. I also discourage playing up.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Saw this discussion and have been working on this response for a while. Sorry, it did get a little long.
How much do you pull punches?
What an excellent question, if difficult to answer.
We can all agree that we all, ultimately, want to deliver a winning experience to our players. A fun, rewarding game that encourages them to come back for more. But a lot of people struggle with that when they GM, especially given the scripted nature of combats and scenarios within society play. I think, however, that variation can still be accomplished within the PFS by having two key components as a GM: mastery of the system and GMing experience.
What I mean by mastery of the system is an understand of how, in a strictly numbers sense, Pathfinder works. What feats better enhance a character’s combat potential, what actions a character can take in combat, and dozens of other useful rules, like flanking, attacks of opportunity, cover, combat maneuvers, aiding another, etc. This is something that is learned both through playing and GMing, and is something that’s very easy to develop a basic understanding of quickly. It also includes, from a GMing standpoint, understanding how monster stat-blocks work. What abilities most hamper PCs, which ones are easily countered, and how best to dismantle a group of prospective adventurers. But having a mastery of the system is only one half of the equation.
A good GM also needs experience. This is something that you learn from GMing, and watching how others GM. This is where you steal the tricks of other GMs, and incorporate their advice into how you GM. Also, a skilled GM can look at a table and identify what players are new versus experienced, and gauge the atmosphere of play the table prefers (like if swearing is offensive to anyone). An experienced GM should be able to read his players and their reaction to things throughout the game, and play off those reactions to maximize whatever feeling you want the players to leave with at the end. If they’re excited when there’s lots of dice and damage, play that up. If they’re exuberant about roleplaying, play that up. You should be like the moon to their sun, a body reflecting the energy of your players. A good way to think of GMing is like an evolving muscle. It’s something that never stagnates, and it’s something that improves as you train it. As you GM, you should be continually improving your process.
I’ll use myself as an example. You can probably find posts of mine from two years ago where I touted about how awesome it was to use little cards to keep track of initiative order. Now, I hardly use them, because I find that writing down initiative order with a dry erase marker on the map is much easier. It helps me keep names straight, as well as makes the initiative order public (something I think of as a courtesy for players). It’s also one less thing I have to remember to carry with me when I GM at cons. But two years ago, I would have argued against all those reasons I just listed. So don’t be afraid to find that your style is changing as your experience as a GM grows. That’s how you improve.
But how you combine your mastery of the system and your GM experience defines what kind of GM you are. By mixing the two together, you get your own style.
For example, I can have a goblin NPC either move to get flanking or instead spend his turn being distracted by something shiny in his square. Both are entirely legal within the rules, and both are things a goblin would do. I know this is true from my mastery of the system, which also tells me that flanking would make the fight harder on the PCs, and having the goblin waste a turn looking around in his square would make it easier. I decide which action to have the goblin do based off my experience as a GM. Whether or not the party is having a hard time with the other goblins, or if flanking the wizard and dropping him would amp up the excitement at the table. And how I choose to run that situation defines my style as a GM.
Your style defines when you pull punches. In the above situation, new players would probably say I was a fun and understanding GM, because it was their first game and I had the goblins in that fight doing silly things on their turns, and rarely put the PCs in a situation where their deaths were all imminent. Newer players act a lot like we did when we started. We ran in a straight line, provoked attacks of opportunity, and never fought defensively. We prepared damaging spells over others, because 5d6 on a fireball is more than double the damage of a greatsword (so many d6!!). But as we played, we were educated by other players and GMs, both through advice and observation, that other tactics and abilities are often superior in certain situations. Eventually, new players will have to learn, like we all did, what tactics are useful, which spells and abilities can auto-win certain fights (like enlarge person on your reach fighter, or just haste in general), and it’s our job to help them learn.
The only question is what kind of teacher do you want to be?
There’s no right and wrong answer to that question, but there is an answer for each of us. I prefer a little bit of handholding for newer players, suggesting various actions they could take and pointing out good spells or feats to consider. I never roll dice for players, or tell them to do something else with their turn, because suggestion is where I draw the line. But that ‘line’ is and should be different for each GM. One of the benefits to society play is that, unlike a weekly game with one GM, we are constantly exposed to different GM styles, which all help us refine our own.
So now, I’ll finally answer the thread question.
Personally, I only pull punches for newer folks. I tend to roll my dice in the open, so often players react to natural 20s before I could fudge them, even if I wanted to. I give people breaks, and use good or bad combat decisions throughout my games to try and find that happy medium of challenging but winnable. I try to make each boss fight an all or nothing battle to the end, where the PCs triumph, but it was hard fought victory. If I GM the same scenario three times for three different tables, the difficulty for each table is going to change based off the people playing. But they should all walk away with the same sense of epic conquest. If they leave disheartened, or bored, I’ve failed my job.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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New players with level 1 characters are about the only time I will pull punches. I never fudge combat die rolls -- in fact I can't, I roll all attacks and damage in the open when GMing PFS -- but I will select deliberately sub-optimal tactics, etc. when dealing with new players. I also take pains to thoroughly explain the mechanical implications of choices, and give new players extra time to make decisions.
In the case of experienced players, I don't pull punches. I still play dumb or mindless creatures appropriately, but smart antagonists are played with every bit of guile I can muster. I think I kill characters more often than some other GMs as a result, but so be it.
For me, it kind of depends, I dont like to TPK, nor do i enjoy killing players, so I will fudge once in a while, unless.... unless.
If a character/group asks for it...
I GM'd a group that they got ported to a different version of their city where all the big NPC's they have traveled with were being sold as slaves, and was occupied by orcs with a avatar of a god sitting watching it all, aloof.
The LS Paladin jumped upon a table, threw his shield, and shouted, "I'm gonna take all you ** on!" To which the quick thinking 1/2orc barb smacked him with the side of his axe (knocked pally out cold with a crit as i recall...) "Stupid slave..."
Me (facepalming): "Roll that bluff check..."