You are automatically discredited for using aliens 4 as an example.Well, I am thinking Aliens 4...
Let me take the position of the devils advocate.
If a commander tried anything with my mercenary character, I would probably, being a mercenary, make sure the commander was killed and that it was known to everybody in the army that messing with me means painful and humiliating death.
If the commander would even mentioned this incident, I would loose respect for the commander, see her as weak, and immediately challenge her authority, either have her back down, or provoke a fight that I had rigged to win.
If the commander needs to establish authority over the character in a way that make the character respect her, not frag her, it has to be by either besting the character in the characters context and values, or by having the character respect and admire the commander by strong and cool actions.
ROFL!
@Tandriniel: but in most armies, you're better off without mercenaries like that; they undermine discipline among the rank and file troops. Also, sounds rather unreliable.
I mean, it can be fun playing the badass mercenary, but at some point the reasonable thing for the army to do is to kill you all. And being an army, they probably can. When will they do so? As soon as you're not so useful anymore; anywhere between your last mission and payday for example.
Exactly. And everybody involved knows this... It is a ticking bomb ;-). Excellent plot driver...
Mercenaries come (and came) in all shapes and sizes. Blackwater represents an infinitessimal sliver of these shapes and sizes...
It comes down to what is fun in your game.
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Gamers have trouble adapting to discipline and hierarchy.
Have him put on latrine duty while the other PCs go into town for a good time. Role play the digging. If you need to introduce a plot hook, have him find something like an unexpected body or a casket.
thanks,
Kodger
No witnesses? Then it's between the NPC and the PC.
question; was she acting deserving of the term (such as not working together with the PCs, or behaving in such a manner that may get all of them killed over her pride or somesuch)? if it's just you personally having a problem with the word, then speak with the player out of the game and ask the refrain from saying it, since it makes you uncomfortable.
if it's the NPC being haughty then a pay dock and an extended duration of unsavory duties would be fitting (insult ME will they!?), as has been suggested.
if she's particularly vindictive over an insult in the heat of the moment (odd, but you can never tell which people are neurotic like that), she could have him flogged in addition to the above (which would sow fear and/or resentment in the party and her troops), or challenge him over her honor (which would give/teach the players some respect i would think)--as she doesn't much appreciate being insulted like that.
not to the death, mind you, but enough that he learns to respect those who give him his pay.
To answer a few questions:
1. The PC called her that because the player said that his character has a low Wisdom and Charisma scores so wouldn't know better. Character in question does have a very high Int though (he's an alchemist). I'll be honest, I've always hated when players use that as an excuse for their characters' actions. If he would've have said his character, as a male half-orc, doesn't have a whole lot of respect for humans or women, it wouldn't bother me as much.
2. As far as I can determine the PC called her that because he was in the middle of getting his levels drained by a spectre and needed some help. The PC's exact phrase was, "get over here you stupid c**t!" The marshal was further up the battle field fighting a unit of pikemen at the time while trying to make her way toward the enemy commander (a graveknight).
3. The only other characters - NPC or otherwise - present during the fight were the marshal and the PCs.
4. The Marshal became the leader of this mercenary army through a combination of martial prowess, leadership skill, charisma, and politicking. She's the highest level character in the army.
I will say, the PC did seem to immediately regret his remark, so if he shows the proper amount of contrition he might just get let off with a warning. Maybe. The Marshal is very popular among the regular troops, so if they catch wind of the fact that some snotty freelancer disrespected her, they might take matters into their own hands *grin*.
I would give the Player a stern warning about using such disrespeting language at my table. If it happened again I would suspend their gaming priviledges for 30 days.
Was it witnessed by anyone important?
Does the common soldier know this happened? (ie: affect morale and discipline)If not publicly known:
*Gets called into commander's office, alone**after a bit of small talk*
"Don't let it happen again. Otherwise I can't ignore it."If witnessed by common soldiers:
*Gets called into commander's office, alone*"We have a problem. Not that I appreciate what you called me and I know it won't happen again.... right? But it's becoming public knowledge and it's affecting morale. What do you suggest?"
Have the player become part of the solution.
Only problem with that is that commanding officers don't ask their subordinates what their opinions are, and quite frankly don't care. COs are there to give orders and maintain discipline, not be buddy buddy with the soldiers.
A solution from the HBO series Rome had the soldier Titus Pullo scourged and imprisoned for drunkenness and striking an officer, but the worst punishment was that he was not allowed to join in on the plunder after they sacked a city. (plus he was sentenced to die in the arena, but you don't have to go that far)
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The blatant one was quashed quickly.
I am more worried about the PC one.
I would give the Player a stern warning about using such disrespeting language at my table. If it happened again I would suspend their gaming priviledges for 30 days.
There goes non-PC roleplaying. Makes me wonder if people really understand what "playing a role" means.
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Man, now I want to hear those stories!After 7 years in the army, I would say wall to wall counseling. Honestly though, I have caused out a Maj as a SPC before. In the heat of battle, bad calls can be called out. If it was unwarranted disrespect however, 10 lashes in public and a 3-month dock in wages would be appropriate.
I have had a couple hilarious examples of warranted disrespect to a superior officer.
1) I had my LT hit me in the chest with the barrel of his rifle while on a dismounted patrol. I snatched his weapon from him hit him in the chest with the butt of it and gave it to my platoon sgt. I told him he could have it back when he learned not to "flag" people. The PSG told the LT that I let him off light and not to pursue the issue.
2) I had a MAJ who kept interrupting me while I was treating a man with a bullet in his femoral artery. I told him (with all due respect) could you STFU and get out of my trama area. Again my PSG had my back (thankfully).
3) we got ambushed and were cut off from our lead trucks and I was asking for guidance from a buck sgt. He kept saying "um, uh". So I grabbed him by the helmet, told him that "um, uh" isn't a viable tactical strategy, and drove around the block to the rest of the platoon.
Those were the funniest, looking back now. I yelled at a LTC for not having wheelchair access at the hospital, but he was waaaaay cool and understood my stress and let it slide.
If it wasn't the middle of a combat zone then there would have been NO way I could have gotten away with it. But I did earn a rep in my company as a doc who stood up for his guys no matter what... And as a kick ass DM, but that is beside the point.
Re-read your posts here and you will see that it is not at all "beside the point". Respect given, respect earned, staying true to your buddies, to your duty and to yourself.
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I would give the Player a stern warning about using such disrespeting language at my table. If it happened again I would suspend their gaming priviledges for 30 days.
Different tables, different rules. At your table language might be a problem, at mine (for example) I wouldn't have an issue.
To the OP: If you want the player to hate the commander then by all means use harsh punishment. If you want him to build respect amongst the player base then have the commander call the players in for a briefing and then when the briefing is over have the commander break the PC's nose with one punch. Then have him say "I may be a c**t but I'm not a stupid c**t. The next time you have something to say, say it to my face, I might only break something minor."
Neither I nor my wife have ever been accused of "being politically correct". That being said I told my wife about the post and she was extremely offended that anyone would ever refer to another player in that manner even in role playing. We have a mixed group of players in our group that includes some families. Even when we did not we enacted a set of Ethical Standards for the group at the behest of our former National Organization. Showing other players common decency and respect at all times and proper sportsmanship is central to that so it is not about the "language", but the lack of respect.
Sounds to me like Mr. Big Mouth just got on the bad side of the person who decides the mission assignments.
How angry is she?
Does she need a squad to clear the carrion crawlers and otyughs out of the partially collapsed sewer system and seal possible underground intrusion points?
Does she need someone to search the now-rotting dead bodies and their belongings for the one enemy combatant who may have been carrying an important communique?
Does she need someone to allow themselves to be captured by the enemy in order to smuggle information to an important POW?
Does she need to decide which squad to put on reduced rations until the supply shipment makes it in?
How many crappy missions do you think it would take before Big Mouth wised up?
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Neither I nor my wife have ever been accused of "being politically correct". That being said I told my wife about the post and she was extremely offended that anyone would ever refer to another player in that manner even in role playing. We have a mixed group of players in our group that includes some families. Even when we did not we enacted a set of Ethical Standards for the group at the behest of our former National Organization. Showing other players common decency and respect at all times and proper sportsmanship is central to that so it is not about the "language", but the lack of respect.
You see this as a lack of respect, I see this as a bit of roleplaying. If a Player said this about the GM, that's a problem. A character saying that in game? Not an issue.
Horses for courses.
The concern for my game is entirely what the character said, not the player.
Anyway, I've done some thinking and the marshal may just have a word with him, likely with an implied threat. On the other hand, the marshal is practically beloved by most of the regular troops, many of whom already dislike the freelancers. They may just enact some "corrective measures" on the PC on their own.
I can understand if you have perhaps female players at the table who are particularly sensitive to those kind of insults. Wouldnt surprise me at all if women at your table said 'I dont have to spend my fun time playing a game where we're free to insult women like that'... And I'm sure they'd all have some choice words for the 'player' about even pretending to be the kind of person who uses that language even 'in character' by the terms of the rule "you're a richard because you choose to play a character who is a richard"
If that isnt the case though, I hate to say it but this is another time when I cant help but suggest go the opposite of your instinctive direction.
If there's one thing I know about military/paramilitary service its that the term 'swear like a sailor' wasn't built on a lie. Having worked with a pair of marines I can tell you that these two guys insulted each other in ways that would make Drill Sgt. Ermey blush. Literally no level of insult was off limits and each of them found the next atrocious escalation hillarious.
It was as if part of the military training they received included a masters degree in 'crossing the line.' I cannot understate how every single thing these two said to each other made me think 'every single time one of them opens their mouth they say something that would start a jihadist down a lifelong path of vengeance. Everyone who listened to them was horrified but these guys just thought it was hillarious because both of them knew that the other had to have thicker skin than that.
It was worse than just 'my mommas more of a man than you are' kind of stuff. It was like 'I'd call you a piece of sh** but thats too good for you. I call you an a***ole because at least a piece of sh** is something... An a***hole isnt even a something. You aren't a piece of sh**... You are the space. The nothingness. You are the hole through which sh** and farts pass.'
Only much quicker and meaner and to the point. Every time.
I totally understand the trope that nobody sasses drill sergeant, but by the same token drill sergeant would never punish a guy for less than sticks and stones. What? Just because she's a female commander means she gets to keep her thin skin? Thats gender profiling that would probably piss off a female marine. They want it known that they can dish it as well as they take it and they can do both as good if not better than any man they serve with.
If nobody else saw it she'd probably bring it up at the next 'inspection' unedited and even commend the offender for 'saying what needs to be said to get her attention instead of being a little sissy about it' Nice will get you killed out here boys, so do what needs to be done. The only way this wouldnt work out well is if the insulting pc, as a result of distracting her, made the battle go wrong or got somebody killed.
The term he used could be interpreted to mean an 'extra tough version' of female anatomy and could, by a thick skinned female military commander be interpreted as dare I say a particularly astute and (depending on how she's been played up to this point) accurate... compliment!.... Makes me think of Sgt Calhoun from Wreck it Ralph... 'Flattery dont charge these batteries"
If there's one thing I know about military/paramilitary service its that the term 'swear like a sailor' wasn't built on a lie. Having worked with a pair of marines I can tell you that these two guys insulted each other in ways that would make Drill Sgt. Ermey blush. Literally no level of insult was off limits and each of them found the next atrocious escalation hillarious.
It was as if part of the military training they received included a masters degree in 'crossing the line.' I cannot understate how every single thing these two said to each other made me think 'every single time one of them opens their mouth they say something that would start a jihadist down a lifelong path of vengeance. Everyone who listened to them was horrified but these guys just thought it was hillarious because both of them knew that the other had to have thicker skin than that.
It was worse than just 'my mommas more of a man than you are' kind of stuff. It was like 'I'd call you a piece of sh** but thats too good for you. I call you an a***ole because at least a piece of sh** is something... An a***hole isnt even a something. You aren't a piece of sh**... You are the space. The nothingness. You are the hole through which sh** and farts pass.'
Only much quicker and meaner and to the point. Every time.
I totally understand the trope that nobody sasses drill sergeant, but by the same token drill sergeant would never punish a guy for less than sticks and stones. What? Just because she's a female commander means she gets to keep her thin skin? Thats gender profiling that would probably piss off a female marine. They want it known that they can dish it as well as they take it and they can do both as good if not better than any man they serve with.
If nobody else saw it she'd probably bring it up at the next 'inspection' unedited and even commend the offender for 'saying what needs to be said to get her attention instead of being a little sissy about it' Nice will get you killed out here boys, so do what needs to be done. The only way this wouldnt work out well is if the insulting pc, as a result of distracting her, made the battle go wrong or got somebody killed.
The term he used could be interpreted to mean an 'extra tough version' of female anatomy and could, by a thick skinned female military commander be interpreted as dare I say a particularly astute and (depending on how she's been played up to this point) accurate... compliment!.... Makes me think of Sgt Calhoun from Wreck it Ralph... 'Flattery dont charge these batteries"
Context matters though. Obviously, the marshal isn't some shirking violet, but on the other hand there's a certain amount of earned camaraderie and respect implied with what you described above. In the real military it works something like this: When you're the FNG (f**kin new guy) you take all the s**t everyone dishes out to you and keep your mouth shut. Once you prove to your team that you're not a worthless sack of s**t, then you can start giving back as good as you receive. But until you've earned that respect then trying to act as though you can engage in that kind of casual vulgarity is just going to earn you the scorn of your unit, if not actual disciplinary measures.
In this case, it wasn't the general who has been fighting side-by-side with the marshal for years, it's a PC adjunct who had never been in combat with her before. He absolutely has not earned the privilege of being able to say whatever he wants to her with no consequences.
I suppose. I dont think either of the marines I knew would want to be thought of as the kind of delicate flower that would take offense at a verbal insult even from a non military person, but YMMV.
I guess the key detail here is that she's the commander of a mercenary army instead of a real one. Thats like saying I'm the commander of an assassins guild or the commander of a mafia or a commander of a fairly large band of bounty hunters. That right there is what clearly separates it from the way I envision high ranking military folks. Calling it an 'army' doesnt make it an actual army so in that respect it lends a lot more weight to the idea that she reacts to verbal insults...
Ah well. To each his own. Sounds like your mind's already made up on the 'if' she should react I guess.
Have your commander now refer to the disrespectful PC by his new nickname, which will be "Stupid c**t." Once the rest of the men in the unit hear her refer to him as such in public he will become the laughing stock in your army. I would assume your PC has not earned considerable repute to have much influence or sway in the unit to avoid being made fun of on a daily basis.
I think the suggestion of having the PC beaten is going overboard. It seems way too much like you feel personally insulted and want to get revenge. If my GM were to respond to a vulgar remark that way, at best I'd just roll my eyes and say "Yeah. Ok. Whatever, have at it big man." A pointless show of power, really.
Do you want the PC to learn respect for her? Honest question, because having me beaten because I said something mean to her would cause me to lose respect.
And since I'm really petty the next time I GMed I'd specifically have her killed. And her soul torn apart by demons. And then I'd call your character something vulgar because you couldn't do anything about it. ;)
I'd go with something that doesn't specifically involve violence. The nickname idea suggested is good, or the assignment of undesirable duties. Something to display authority, but also leniency. Possibly even specifically say "You know, I could just let the others know what happened and let them have at you. But I don't think I need to, because I think you know better than to let this happen again. You're on [undesirable duty] until further notice, and if it happens again you can explain it to the men yourself. I promise to send you home in a nice coffin."
Reinforces authority and her ability to mete out warranted punishments, shows leniency to foster trust and possibly a feeling of debt (she could have had me beaten, but didn't, I owe her one), and makes it clear that this is a one-time exception. This would do much more to have me actually respect her and watch my mouth, if I were the PC. Maintaining order without going overboard, and showing compassion to the people working under her.
Of course you could say I just have a thin skin too, but it just seems like a lot of people here are really eager to 'lay down the law' or something. Which I don't think will earn any respect, its just annoying and vindictive.
Quick update: Had the followup session last Friday; the Marshal let the PC's comment slide - this time. She's secure enough in her position that she doesn't need to invoke any corrective action at this time. However word got out amongst the regular troops that the PC was disrespectful and are shunning him for it, because the Marshal is very respected by them. The PCs was making a bit of income selling alchemical supplies to people, but now I've informed him that just about all of his customers have stopped buying - in addition to getting dirty looks from them. He has yet to figure out why.
Nice :)
Sounds like a good solution. No need for unnecessary butt-hurt, the point gets across just fine. She actually sounds like an excellent commander. Well done, Xexyz. Sounds like an excellent solution.
Quick update: Had the followup session last Friday; the Marshal let the PC's comment slide - this time. She's secure enough in her position that she doesn't need to invoke any corrective action at this time. However word got out amongst the regular troops that the PC was disrespectful and are shunning him for it, because the Marshal is very respected by them. The PCs was making a bit of income selling alchemical supplies to people, but now I've informed him that just about all of his customers have stopped buying - in addition to getting dirty looks from them. He has yet to figure out why.
Now add a blanket party!
Sry to crash the thread, but how many feats should a lv1 barb, lv3 magus, and a lv1 dragonrider have?
Man, you've been asking random questions about this character in random threads for some time now. I'm starting to think you're some kind of weird troll. Just make your own thread please.