... no spoilers please!
I am looking to join a Carrion Crown campaign, starting with the first module.
We have six players signed up, but we may end up with only four or five when push comes to shove on the schedule.
So far we have one player wanting to play a "meaty fighty dude", one wanting to play a necromancer wizard and one who is flirting with cleric. (I am trying to dissuade him from playing a heal focused cleric.)
So, without any spoilers, the main question I have is whether the party truly needs a rogue.
I don't mind playing a rogue, but there are other classes/roles I am interested in too. I've played lots of rogues, but I've never played a bard. So I'm wondering how a bard would fit in.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Having GMed this almost through to the end (with no rogue or bard in the party) I would assume a bard to be much more useful and fun than rogue. Both for knowledge and for bardy skills.
I sorta got the same feeling from the players guide pdf.
So, if I go bard, what sort of bard should I play? Bard doesn't seem to go well with stealth, and the main thing the party seems to lack right now is stealth.
Agreed. A bard will be useful not only to buff the party, but also for the social skills later on.
Plus, a bit of music is always nice when camping for the night. :)
No Rogue is needed, in my opinion (but then my group is only just starting book 3).
I highly recommend a Paladin--like, unbelievably so. That or a Life Oracle. I also would not dissuade the Cleric from being heal focused--not because the group especially needs healing, but because, as is obvious from even just the name of the AP, there is a ton of undead throughout the whole thing, and "healing" becomes really good blasting.
I might even say that having positive energy available is virtually required for Book 1.
Anyway, a Bard works fine--I played a Bard*, actually--but if you go that route, definitely be a Dirge Bard so you can use your exceptional list of mind-affecting spells on undead (which there are a lot of).
*I played a Bard from the beginning to the middle of book 2 before the GM threw in some custom scenario he found on the internet and wiped us. If he wiped us, "how did this not end the game?" you might ask. Why, because he used this souped up scenario on a day literally half the players couldn't make it (including all of our melee), so, the rest of the party survived back in town. I made a Paladin archer to replace my Bard and now I have no issue fighting even his "I'm trying to murder the party" adjusted encounters.
I've never found stealth to be too terribly useful when the rest of the party is a bunch of clanking noisemakers. Unless, of course, you want use the rest of the party as a distraction while you hide and sneak. :)
I am currently in a campaign of carrion crown. I can't say much about it yet as we just began 2 sessions ago. Us having a party with TWO rogues in it is pretty redundant and in all honestly they have not been useful yet. However, the beginning is pretty Role-playing intensive and has a lot of interaction with townsfolk, etc. I would go Bard. If you can't make up your mind....go Archaeologist bard. It;s a very nice compromise.
I'm running Carrion Crown right now, and from what I remember of what I haven't run yet a Rogue is never especially needed. There aren't really many traditional traps in CC besides the occasional random bear trap. And Stealth is a crapshoot at best considering the senses on many of the things you'd like to sneak around.
No, what you REALLY need is a social guy. A Bard or some other Charisma based caster. Definitely a Bard if the Wizard isn't going to be Knowledge focused.
If you don't have a guy with Diplomacy by the time you hit part 2, you're gonna have a bad time.
Also, while it may be more fun and challenging to go without a heal/positive energy focused Cleric, I can assure you there are some spots where you may regret the decision to steer him away from that.
I'm running a CC game right now, and I would agree with the others that stealth is... difficult, to say the least, even more so than with an average party. I think a bard is a very flavorful addition any party, and I think it would synergize well with a lot of the AP.
I texted my friend who loves bards, and he recommends the dirge bard. :)
Paladin makes the first book Easy Mode. I don't recommend that.
Also, I really recommend not having a necromancer in the party for story reasons. No spoilers, but it's just a bad idea.
A bard would've been helpful in my group's playthrough. Depending on how close to the module your GM runs it, social interactions could be quite key, and anything that helps with fear effects will probably be useful.
Possible spoiler - those who have played please review to make sure I'm not spoiling things for AD:
Possible spoiler - those who have played please review to make sure I'm not spoiling things for AD:
** spoiler omitted **
Fair enough. Two people have shot down my warning. Ignore it, please. :)
A bard would be an EXCELLENT choice for carrion crown. Especially if you have 4-5 characters.
My group is only in the middle of book 2, so take this as "applies to early on only." A classic rogue is not going to participate well in something like half the battles. Outside of battle, there are a couple times when having a trapfinder is useful, but my party managed without one. Really, if you have a wizard, you'll be able to get by without a rogue just fine.
My character is a sage sorcerer, who is themed as a seeker of forbidden lore and dark knowledge. He's the classic example of one of those guys who becomes twisted by researching about lovecraftian horrors, and ends up having some Really Bad End. I packed as many knowledge skills into him as I could (4), and I've basically been the party encyclopedia. In the first two books, it's served us REALLY well. So a bard's ability to make knowledge checks, plus the potential to serve as a party face, will be incredibly useful.
Really, the party would benefit from having two characters with face skills for this AP. There's a section in book 2 where that REALLY helps.
Stealth really hasn't come up much. Unless the entire party is geared for it, it's a lot less useful. And the so far the majority of the stuff that doesn't have high perception doesn't need it for one reason or another.
so I'd recommend that you focus on buffing the party in battle and being the social/knowledge guy out of it. If you read the character guide VERY carefully, they straight out tell you which knowledges to take. Read every character type, and collect the knowledge recommendations. Those are the ones that are going to be used in the AP. Next, look for any knowledge recommended twice. Those are the heavily used ones.
Knowledge: engineering comes up, but not often. My group has done fine without it. Knowledge: nature comes up after book 1. It's helpful to have someone who can track. Knowledge: dungeoneering is occasionally useful in battle. It's nice but not necessary. Recommend it for the party fighter.
That necromancer is going to give you fits, story-wise. If the player is really dead-set on playing a necromancer, I'd recommend picking up the disguise skill and regularly disguising him. Bluff (for your character to explain who he is) would be good in such a case.
It cannot be said enough: Your party will need diplomacy.
I adore my Life Oracle in Carrion Crown, and our current party is Brawler Fighter, Martial Artist Monk, Cojurer Wizard, Cleric/Ranger and myself.
It's going pretty well so far, but I can very easily admit that I'd love to have Inspire Courage, so another vote for Bard. Can't ever turn down free buffs and an awesome skilled character. :)
Carrion Crown is pretty well written and enjoyable AP. We are about 3/4's done with it.
Might ask your GM to check these forums, there are parts of it that some GM's exaggerate the difficulties suggested in the module that can make it nearly impossible or at least lessen the fun. Many GM's like to tinker and adjust the module alot. This one of the ones that I think that is less needed than usual for a decent balanced group. Undead are also one of the monsters that it is fairly easy for the GM to accidentially put something in that the party can't beat. But that is a totally different subject.
Thinking about what I can say without spoiling anything in the AP for you. I think it is fairly safe to say that everyone realises there are tons of undead and necromancers.
That means you will need a way to remove conditions. Abilities reduced, negative levels, curses, poisons, diseases, blindness, etc... are all possiblities with those opponents.
Based upon my limited experience playing through the AP and what I have read or heard about it:
Life oracle with channel, reach cure spells, and energy body (undead blaster not a healbot role)
High charisma cleric (for the channels)
Undead scourge paladin
Are far and away the most useful classes for combats in this AP.
Don't let the group get too hyper focused on undead. There are other things. But I would roughly guess better than half are undead. And most of the really dangerous fights have been undead.
However, remember there is also a significant amount of social interaction and investigation necessary. So these abilities need to be covered. Occasionally stealth is very helpful.
The other option I have considered but not seen tried would be a neutral necromancer, negative channeling cleric, bones oracle, etc... To take over and use all the undead encountered. But that could get to be a lot of working figuring out how to modify things for the GM to still kinda hold to the story line without the party becoming the ultimate enemy. So check with your GM before you put too much effort into this approach.
For story reasons, it seems to like it would be difficult to play a necromancer or evil cleric without constantly feeling like I am on the wrong side.
Agreed that rogue is not necessary, but there are parts where they can be pretty helpful. Bard is always useful. Dirge bard especially. I think parts of it will be very difficult if you don't have someone with some channeling capability. There are other things you can do. But it is not normal tactics that most people I know of will think to try or prepare for.
|
I absolutely loved running Carrion Crown AP. You will not find much use for a rogue throughout the AP but a social party member will make the modules significantly easier.
There are some traps in later modules which disable device would be very useful for but the rogue’s sneak attack would not be much use against undead without some changes.
A bard would make an excellent choice; all of the modules apart from the last one are heavily social and/or investigation based. Knowledge skills and social skills will make it infinitely more enjoyable and doable. And who does not love some music round the nightly fire?
There are some areas where sneaking would help but they are few and far between.
Our group will be running Carrion Crown in the near future, and based solely on the ad copy for the six books there's been concern about having a paladin in the group, if we're going to be expected to cooperate with werewolves and vampires during the course of the adventure.
Our group tends to heavily immerse into characters and will not readily ignore roleplaying considerations like "paladin assists undead" simply to enjoy the convenience of having a paladin around for the other times when undead are the clear enemy.
Our likely party makeup (not yet set in stone) includes one wizard, two clerics, a ranger and a rogue. There will be a sixth PC but that might be a fighter, a third cleric or even a paladin if out grou (and that player in particular) can be assured a paladin won't be tortured by his own ethics during the campaign.
One of the clerics will have the Leadership domain, which means at 8th level he'll suddenly pick up a 6th L cohort, and that character might be a dirge bard, fighter or paladin (again, if...) That same cleric will be high CHA and optimized for Intimidation for various reasons involving our history with the GM; if the PC can also be diplomatic, so much the better.
I thought PF removed the "sneak attack doesn't work against undead" thing.
Damon Griffin: Our DM specifically banned Paladins for the campaign for that exact reason.
Adamantine Dragon: Oh yeah... I forgot. Heh.
undead can totally be sneak attacked and crited for that matter.. Only thing immune are oozes, incorps, elementals.. And anything with concealment sneak wise..
I am leaning more and more towards the bard. Mostly because I've played a lot of rogues or skill monkey stealthy types of characters and I've never played a bard. I should stretch myself...
A detective bard could be fun.
What are you looking for? Buffer? I'm guessing not a skill monkey. Gish type? Traveling magician, peddling his wares? Poofy loopy musician?
Well, we have a couple of players who haven't yet picked a role or class yet, what we have covered is wizard, cleric and melee guy.
If I had my druthers I'd druther play a bard who can do some trap finding/disabling, can provide substantial buffs for the party, can handle the social skill needs ("face" stuff) for the party and who can contribute something to combat, perhaps a bow-using bard.
Being able to help with undead would also be nice.
Sounds like a good fit for the AP.
Kind of wish I'd made my character as a bard. In fact, the most experienced player in my group said "I wondered why he wasn't a bard when I first met him" yesterday during a conversation.
That narrows things down a bit.
Let's focus on trapfinding, since that's a rarer ability.
Archaeologist, archivist, detective, and sandman all get that ability. The Archaeologist actually gets an improved trapfinding, as they get a flat bonus to Perception, no qualifiers. Rogues, as I'm sure you know, only get the bonus to perception to finding traps.
The other three archetypes just get the ability to disable magic traps, but no boost to Disable Device or Perception. I suppose you could argue that the detective gets those bonuses too due to the "find and disable" verbiage, but I think a more likely case is that the author of that one forgot that anyone could find traps in PF. Or maybe they really did mean they just get those bonuses against non-mundane traps. I'm guessing the former though.
Now, the archaeologist is probably your best bet for everything in your list but substantial buffing, since they lose their bardic performances. Thankfully, the bard has some nice buff spells to help make up for that. The Inspiration line of spells (Timely, Gallant, and Brilliant) are all pretty sweet support spells.
If you do go Archaeologist, the standard thing to do is take Performer of the Society (the +3 rounds of bardic performance trait. Flavor it as "Extra Luck" or something :)) and then Lingering Performance -- I mean Lingering Luck. With a 14 Cha, this will give you 36 "rounds" of Luck per day, which is more than enough. The archetype does work with all those things, unlike the Dervish Dancer, I think.
They're also basically Rogues-lite, using static bonuses to hit and damage to make up for sneak attack. Combine Luck with allegro and you can kick up your performance for a while for levels 4-6 (before you get Real Haste). With a wizard in the party, it might be a good idea to not get haste and instead get Good Hope instead. That spell is awesome.
And then pick up some rogue talents to handle the Face aspects, by rerolling if necessary. Or just Charm Person them :)
About those "of the society" traits. Can anyone take them, with no restrictions (other than class)? I always thought you had to join a society or something.
... there's been concern about having a paladin in the group, if we're going to be expected to cooperate with werewolves and vampires during the course of the adventure.
Our group tends to heavily immerse into characters and will not readily ignore roleplaying considerations like "paladin assists undead" simply to enjoy the convenience of having a paladin around for the other times when undead are the clear enemy.
... if out grou (and that player in particular) can be assured a paladin won't be tortured by his own ethics during the campaign...
I will try not to spoil anything here.
I guess in my opinion it depends upon how strictly lawful stupid you hold your paladin code. I don't think anyone can survive going to war with a third of the world. So everyone has to pick their battles.
Our paladin hasn't been having excessive problems with his code of ethics. There has been a little bit of angst, but he could deal with it.
Yes, he doesn't like undead. But isn't putting the restless undead peacefully to rest so they can move on to the afterlife even better than slashing with sword. That is possible a few places. It might or might not have been easier to just slash them, but there was significant pride in the whole group to put them to rest peacefully.
There is once where we had to - maybe not cooperate exactly but - at least not get in active conflict with some not very nice people. He was able to easily justify that to himself because he was busy stopping a complete psychotic at the time. Have to pick your battles and opposing the not nice people might have prevented him from stopping the psycho.
But if (like some groups) you try to hold the paladin to an absolute black and white intolerant avenging archangel image; then no, it might not work out so well.
If I take a bard who can't do bardic performances, my fellow players might just lynch me...
I think you technically need to be a part of the society. And apparently it's Maestro of the Society.
Vague and unspoilery:
I am running Carrion Crown. The group in now into Book 6.
There are 5 PC's, one of which is a bard.
He sings, he has weird wyrds, and plays a very large support/buff role.
He has been a total asset to the party, and often a pain in the neck to me.
I highly recommend playing a bard.
Cheers!
Heh... you and me both...
Yep. Turns out that being useless against some of the most common and iconic isn't so fun compared to being useful. :)
In all honesty, the Archaeologist Bard is pretty awesome. I would choose it 10/10 times over the rogue. You trade sneak attack for a flat +hit/+damage bonus that doesn't require maneuvering yourself into a lethal position. You get all the other rogues goodies too. Then on top of that you get to be a full blown spell caster with all the great spells that really fill out the role your playing.
I played a Dirge Bard in Carrion Crown and they are awesome. The undead affecting enchantment spells are sweet and helpful.
Also you can combine that archetype with Sound Stryker and dish out good damage (weird words counds a bludgeoning).
Also nicely placed diplomacy checks are going to help you lots in certain encounters and knowledge religion and arcana are sweet to have all over the modules.
Paladin will help but he has to be really, really "open minded".
With the Archaeologist available I dont know why anyone would consider playing a rogue. Archaeologists are the awesomesauce!
It seems the top two recommendations for bard are dirge or archaeologist.
Dirge just sounds a bit metagamey to me, but maybe I'm overly concerned about that...
It'd actually fit fairly well for the funeral. Maybe you were performing for it.
Also, would you be lynched if you lost bardic performance or if you lost inspire courage?
probably inspire courage. And I dunno how disappointed they would actually be. I only expect it to be an issue because the group has a bard in the campaign I am running and his inspire courage is one of the things the group goes on about. So I'm assuming they would be disappointed if I had a bard and they didn't get that.
Still, from a flavor and verisimilitude perspective, bardic performances are among the silliest things in the game...
Well, bardic performance is thankfully much different from Bardic Music, and it's an ability you just turn on. You can flavor it however you want, as there's no set flavor for it other than just audible or visual :)
Every time the bard does inspire courage I get an OOTS visual of Nale singing "fight fight fight the ugly ogre..."
For a campaign arc or so, my bard's inspire courage was the sight of him bashing the heads of his enemies or beating his spear against his shield.
But you! You can be the One To Break The Preconceptions! And be a Detective or Archaeologist!
Shaonti spear dancer thundercaller could be fun too, but a bit out of place.