Lolz this is fun. While I did thoroughly express my opinions on why the Zen Archer is the best archer class, I think it's worth pointing out the Pally is quite reliant on his enemies being Evil.
Edit: As is the Ranger's dependance on favoured terrain/favoured enemy, i might add.
Well, to bring the pally and ranger in line all we need is an "instant evil" spell that allows the pally to treat any one creature as evil and gives the pally all the benefits of fighting an evil enemy.
Bingo! Pally and Ranger totally in line.
I think evil alignment comes up quite a bit more than favored enemies during a typical Paizo campaign. ^^ And Smite Evil is waaaaaay better than Favored Enemy when directly applied to an enemies face.
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IVe seen a cavalier with share spell cast spider climb and charge UP a wall to hit a giant bat... spider climb kept him in the saddle.Exotic Military saddle go read the description in the book. I'll wait, yep it protects you from falling out of the saddle.
So yeah, not silly as Paizo planned for it.
lol, +2 bonus to staying in your saddle does not equate to 'holds you in if your mount goes upside down.' It's designed to keep you on your horse in the event you get knocked unconscious. Bit of a difference than flipping, climbing, etc.
And I'm willing to bet a mounted ape was the last thing on their mind when they wrote that up, lol. (But even if they did, it's still a ridiculous, irrelevant corner case)
You have to have your hands free when using that spell. Also, it doesn't make your butt sticky,iit's to do with your hands and feet. Spider Climb does not help you stay in a saddle.
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A bit of sovreign glue is all you need to keep yourself in the saddle. Sure you have to take your pants off everytime you want to dismount, but losing your dignity is a fair trade for riding a giant ape.
Sohei cannot wear armor (at least, not and flurry, which kinda defeats the point).
While this might be RAI, its not RAW. The way the rules read right now, they CAN flurry and wear armor.
Design Manager
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Sohei cannot wear armor (at least, not and flurry, which kinda defeats the point).While this might be RAI, its not RAW. The way the rules read right now, they CAN flurry and wear armor.
Just double-checked this, he's absolutely correct. The Sohei replaces the standard monk proficiency block, which is where the flurry limitation is located. The Flurry ability itself makes no mention of this limitation. The only thing the Sohei actually loses for wearing armor is his AC Bonus.
Which goes a long way to making the Sohei a bit less mad, since Wisdom becomes even less of a priority for him.So, there's less of a MAD difference between Sohei and ZAM, Sohei gets more attacks and weapon training; ZAM can vastly improve his base damage die, gets better bonus feats (archery-wise), and can utilize all of his ki abilities (which the Sohei hgas to virtually abandon to maintain decent stats) with his bow.
I think pure dpr favors the Sohei a bit, but the Zen Archer walks away with a good chunk more utility, and better total synergy from class abilities.
You have to have your hands free when using that spell. Also, it doesn't make your butt sticky,iit's to do with your hands and feet. Spider Climb does not help you stay in a saddle.IVe seen a cavalier with share spell cast spider climb and charge UP a wall to hit a giant bat... spider climb kept him in the saddle.Exotic Military saddle go read the description in the book. I'll wait, yep it protects you from falling out of the saddle.
So yeah, not silly as Paizo planned for it.
lol, +2 bonus to staying in your saddle does not equate to 'holds you in if your mount goes upside down.' It's designed to keep you on your horse in the event you get knocked unconscious. Bit of a difference than flipping, climbing, etc.
And I'm willing to bet a mounted ape was the last thing on their mind when they wrote that up, lol. (But even if they did, it's still a ridiculous, irrelevant corner case)
Share spell, the horse is doing the climbing #1) The spell states you can be upside down #2)
The spell states you need your hands free TO CLIMB, the rider is not climbing.The Feet are in the stirrups, he can steer with his legs and hold on to the saddle with his non weapon hand
are you saying climbers cant hold on and have one hand free at any time to like do anything? Watch mountaineers.
Better yet watch XGame snowmobilers like Heath Frisby flip upside down (no magic involved I am aware of) while staying in the saddle.
If his feet were magically stuck to the running boards of his machine, im sure he could whip a hand free to wave to the crowd.
the spell requires the hands free for moving forward while climbing. the rider doesn't need to move forward.
A bit of sovreign glue is all you need to keep yourself in the saddle. Sure you have to take your pants off everytime you want to dismount, but losing your dignity is a fair trade for riding a giant ape.
Ive seen a medieval version of this where the upper leg armor for the knight was part of the saddle, the knight was hoisted into the seat with a crane that looks like 10 year olds built it ( I guess his armor was to heavy to climb up) and then he strapped into his leg armor and by extension the saddle (so when he was dead...he would still be in the saddle!)
I can't find the picture anywhere on the internet, I just recall seeing it and thinking how goofy it was.
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You have to have your hands free when using that spell. Also, it doesn't make your butt sticky,iit's to do with your hands and feet. Spider Climb does not help you stay in a saddle.IVe seen a cavalier with share spell cast spider climb and charge UP a wall to hit a giant bat... spider climb kept him in the saddle.Exotic Military saddle go read the description in the book. I'll wait, yep it protects you from falling out of the saddle.
So yeah, not silly as Paizo planned for it.
lol, +2 bonus to staying in your saddle does not equate to 'holds you in if your mount goes upside down.' It's designed to keep you on your horse in the event you get knocked unconscious. Bit of a difference than flipping, climbing, etc.
And I'm willing to bet a mounted ape was the last thing on their mind when they wrote that up, lol. (But even if they did, it's still a ridiculous, irrelevant corner case)
Share spell, the horse is doing the climbing #1) The spell states you can be upside down #2)
The spell states you need your hands free TO CLIMB, the rider is not climbing.
The Feet are in the stirrups, he can steer with his legs and hold on to the saddle with his non weapon handare you saying climbers cant hold on and have one hand free at any time to like do anything? Watch mountaineers.
Better yet watch XGame snowmobilers like Heath Frisby flip upside down (no magic involved I am aware of) while staying in the saddle.If his feet were magically stuck to the running boards of his machine, im sure he could whip a hand free to wave to the crowd.
the spell requires the hands free for moving forward while climbing. the rider doesn't need to move forward.
Now, your horse may get it but it still doesn't help you. Spider Climb doesn't make your butt ortthe insides of your legs sticky. Maybe you could somehow strap yourself into the saddle but but thats about it. I think there used to be a drow riding saddle that would allow you to stay on a riding lizard while upside down.
Sohei cannot wear armor (at least, not and flurry, which kinda defeats the point).While this might be RAI, its not RAW. The way the rules read right now, they CAN flurry and wear armor.
wait where's that now? the latest i hear from SKR is that the sohei can't flurry in armor?
Now, your horse may get it but it still doesn't help you. Spider Climb doesn't make your butt ortthe insides of your legs sticky. Maybe you could somehow strap yourself into the saddle but but thats...You have to have your hands free when using that spell. Also, it doesn't make your butt sticky,iit's to do with your hands and feet. Spider Climb does not help you stay in a saddle.IVe seen a cavalier with share spell cast spider climb and charge UP a wall to hit a giant bat... spider climb kept him in the saddle.Exotic Military saddle go read the description in the book. I'll wait, yep it protects you from falling out of the saddle.
So yeah, not silly as Paizo planned for it.
lol, +2 bonus to staying in your saddle does not equate to 'holds you in if your mount goes upside down.' It's designed to keep you on your horse in the event you get knocked unconscious. Bit of a difference than flipping, climbing, etc.
And I'm willing to bet a mounted ape was the last thing on their mind when they wrote that up, lol. (But even if they did, it's still a ridiculous, irrelevant corner case)
Share spell, the horse is doing the climbing #1) The spell states you can be upside down #2)
The spell states you need your hands free TO CLIMB, the rider is not climbing.
The Feet are in the stirrups, he can steer with his legs and hold on to the saddle with his non weapon handare you saying climbers cant hold on and have one hand free at any time to like do anything? Watch mountaineers.
Better yet watch XGame snowmobilers like Heath Frisby flip upside down (no magic involved I am aware of) while staying in the saddle.If his feet were magically stuck to the running boards of his machine, im sure he could whip a hand free to wave to the crowd.
the spell requires the hands free for moving forward while climbing. the rider doesn't need to move forward.
He specifically said stirrups.
wait where's that now? the latest i hear from SKR is that the sohei can't flurry in armor?Sohei cannot wear armor (at least, not and flurry, which kinda defeats the point).While this might be RAI, its not RAW. The way the rules read right now, they CAN flurry and wear armor.
It's due to a very sneaky oversight in the way the archetype was written, but technically the exact wording of the printed version does allow this (the archetype just intended to give more armor proficiencies, missing that some of the flurry restrictions were in the same section when it said to replace the section). I don't know any GM who has allowed it (much like the uber-flurry that is unintentionally possible with sohei using Manyshot and Rapid Shot), and the original designer of the archetype didn't intend it, and then with SKR's clarification, that's the final nail in the coffin.
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...Now, your horse may get it but it still doesn't help you. Spider Climb doesn't make your butt ortthe insides of your legs sticky. Maybe you could somehow strap yourselfYou have to have your hands free when using that spell. Also, it doesn't make your butt sticky,iit's to do with your hands and feet. Spider Climb does not help you stay in a saddle.IVe seen a cavalier with share spell cast spider climb and charge UP a wall to hit a giant bat... spider climb kept him in the saddle.Exotic Military saddle go read the description in the book. I'll wait, yep it protects you from falling out of the saddle.
So yeah, not silly as Paizo planned for it.
lol, +2 bonus to staying in your saddle does not equate to 'holds you in if your mount goes upside down.' It's designed to keep you on your horse in the event you get knocked unconscious. Bit of a difference than flipping, climbing, etc.
And I'm willing to bet a mounted ape was the last thing on their mind when they wrote that up, lol. (But even if they did, it's still a ridiculous, irrelevant corner case)
Share spell, the horse is doing the climbing #1) The spell states you can be upside down #2)
The spell states you need your hands free TO CLIMB, the rider is not climbing.
The Feet are in the stirrups, he can steer with his legs and hold on to the saddle with his non weapon handare you saying climbers cant hold on and have one hand free at any time to like do anything? Watch mountaineers.
Better yet watch XGame snowmobilers like Heath Frisby flip upside down (no magic involved I am aware of) while staying in the saddle.If his feet were magically stuck to the running boards of his machine, im sure he could whip a hand free to wave to the crowd.
the spell requires the hands free for moving forward while climbing. the rider doesn't need to move forward.
Stirrups wouldn't help you if you are hanging upside down unless they were somehow stiff and locked the riders feet into place.
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Design Manager
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A bit of sovreign glue is all you need to keep yourself in the saddle. Sure you have to take your pants off everytime you want to dismount, but losing your dignity is a fair trade for riding a giant ape.Ive seen a medieval version of this where the upper leg armor for the knight was part of the saddle, the knight was hoisted into the seat with a crane that looks like 10 year olds built it ( I guess his armor was to heavy to climb up) and then he strapped into his leg armor and by extension the saddle (so when he was dead...he would still be in the saddle!)
I can't find the picture anywhere on the internet, I just recall seeing it and thinking how goofy it was.
I recall the type of armor you're referring to, I think there was a period of time where it was actually in fairly common use. I'm gonna see if I can find a picture....
That being said, (and getting slightly back on topic) cavaliers can make pretty hardcore archers as well. There is a cavalier order in Knights of the Inner Sea (I believe it's the Order of the Wild?) that gets a bonus to ranged attacks as part of his challenge. You can also grab some fun feats to use with your Greater Tactician and Master Tactician abilities like Enfilading Fire and Target of Opportunity that boost your archery abilities and those of your teammates as well.
...Now, your horse may get it but it still doesn't help you. Spider Climb doesn't make your butt ortthe insides of your legs sticky.You have to have your hands free when using that spell. Also, it doesn't make your butt sticky,iit's to do with your hands and feet. Spider Climb does not help you stay in a saddle.IVe seen a cavalier with share spell cast spider climb and charge UP a wall to hit a giant bat... spider climb kept him in the saddle.Exotic Military saddle go read the description in the book. I'll wait, yep it protects you from falling out of the saddle.
So yeah, not silly as Paizo planned for it.
lol, +2 bonus to staying in your saddle does not equate to 'holds you in if your mount goes upside down.' It's designed to keep you on your horse in the event you get knocked unconscious. Bit of a difference than flipping, climbing, etc.
And I'm willing to bet a mounted ape was the last thing on their mind when they wrote that up, lol. (But even if they did, it's still a ridiculous, irrelevant corner case)
Share spell, the horse is doing the climbing #1) The spell states you can be upside down #2)
The spell states you need your hands free TO CLIMB, the rider is not climbing.
The Feet are in the stirrups, he can steer with his legs and hold on to the saddle with his non weapon handare you saying climbers cant hold on and have one hand free at any time to like do anything? Watch mountaineers.
Better yet watch XGame snowmobilers like Heath Frisby flip upside down (no magic involved I am aware of) while staying in the saddle.If his feet were magically stuck to the running boards of his machine, im sure he could whip a hand free to wave to the crowd.
the spell requires the hands free for moving forward while climbing. the rider doesn't need to move forward.
If this was something he planned to do, perhaps when he was preparing that spell that morning, I'm sure he'd take just such a precaution. It's really not that great of a leap. We are talking about magic after all.
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It's due to a very sneaky oversight in the way the archetype was written, but technically the exact wording of the printed version does allow this (the archetype just intended to give more armor proficiencies, missing that some of the flurry restrictions were in the same section when it said to replace the section). I don't know any GM who has allowed it (much like the uber-flurry that is unintentionally possible with sohei using Manyshot and Rapid Shot), and the original designer of the archetype didn't intend it, and then with SKR's clarification, that's the final nail in the coffin.
You wouldn't happen to have a link to that clarification would you?
Also, I don't know any GM's who haven't allowed the uber flurry. Considering that a Zen Archer can fire 2d10 die arrows at only 2 attacks less and is substantially less MAD with better ability synergy, it isn't actually unbalanced (comparatively).
It's due to a very sneaky oversight in the way the archetype was written, but technically the exact wording of the printed version does allow this (the archetype just intended to give more armor proficiencies, missing that some of the flurry restrictions were in the same section when it said to replace the section). I don't know any GM who has allowed it (much like the uber-flurry that is unintentionally possible with sohei using Manyshot and Rapid Shot), and the original designer of the archetype didn't intend it, and then with SKR's clarification, that's the final nail in the coffin.
The Creator of the Archtype said he didnt intend for it to be worded that way. But until they update the Errata it still does. I believe it was SKR that also also said you cant use all your flurry attacks with one weapon, then came back and said you could. Right now SKR isnt on board with it, but until there is an errata its still RAW.
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It's due to a very sneaky oversight in the way the archetype was written, but technically the exact wording of the printed version does allow this (the archetype just intended to give more armor proficiencies, missing that some of the flurry restrictions were in the same section when it said to replace the section). I don't know any GM who has allowed it (much like the uber-flurry that is unintentionally possible with sohei using Manyshot and Rapid Shot), and the original designer of the archetype didn't intend it, and then with SKR's clarification, that's the final nail in the coffin.Actually, I just looked back at Flurry under the main monk section and it makes no mention of armor at all. All of the other abilities specifically state they don't work with armor, but not flurry. Where does the no flurry with armor rule come from?
It's listed under the monk's Weapon and Armor Proficiency entry.
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...Now, your horse may get it but it still doesn't help you. Spider Climb doesn't make your butt ortthe insides of your legs sticky.Exotic Military saddle go read the description in the book. I'll wait, yep it protects you from falling out of the saddle.
So yeah, not silly as Paizo planned for it.
Some models of military saddles had very stiff stirrups not the loosey goosey things of today.
The big thick heavy things the knights bounced around in were practically barding in and of themselves.
Modern saddles are designed to be kinder and gentler to the horse and light weight. They wouldnt help a darn if someone tried to knock you out of the saddle...completely different saddle. so yea, the one we would be talking about? the stirrups are stiff.
It's due to a very sneaky oversight in the way the archetype was written, but technically the exact wording of the printed version does allow this (the archetype just intended to give more armor proficiencies, missing that some of the flurry restrictions were in the same section when it said to replace the section). I don't know any GM who has allowed it (much like the uber-flurry that is unintentionally possible with sohei using Manyshot and Rapid Shot), and the original designer of the archetype didn't intend it, and then with SKR's clarification, that's the final nail in the coffin.You wouldn't happen to have a link to that clarification would you?
Also, I don't know any GM's who haven't allowed the uber flurry. Considering that a Zen Archer can fire 2d10 die arrows at only 2 attacks less and is substantially less MAD with better ability synergy, it isn't actually unbalanced (comparatively).
If you're referring to the clarification by the original author, it's here.
I haven't seen any posts by Sean specifically about the topic of sohei's flurrying in armor, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It's due to a very sneaky oversight in the way the archetype was written, but technically the exact wording of the printed version does allow this (the archetype just intended to give more armor proficiencies, missing that some of the flurry restrictions were in the same section when it said to replace the section). I don't know any GM who has allowed it (much like the uber-flurry that is unintentionally possible with sohei using Manyshot and Rapid Shot), and the original designer of the archetype didn't intend it, and then with SKR's clarification, that's the final nail in the coffin.You wouldn't happen to have a link to that clarification would you?
Also, I don't know any GM's who haven't allowed the uber flurry. Considering that a Zen Archer can fire 2d10 die arrows at only 2 attacks less and is substantially less MAD with better ability synergy, it isn't actually unbalanced (comparatively).
The 2d10 arrows are at level 20 only and cost 1 ki point an a swift action, so it's at 3 attacks less (the sohei takes the extra attack at the same cost). But level 20 is not where class balance gets decided, as it's hardly ever even used in play.
Starting as soon as the zen archer does more than 1d8 damage with that ability (level 8, when they gain 1d10, which is barely more), the sohei would be making an absurd 7 arrows per round with the uber-flurry and the ki expenditure, 6 arrows without expending any resources (this stacks with haste if you have it for up to 8 shots per round). That's way more than any other character in the game could possibly make. 7 is more than an unhasted fighter, paladin, or ranger could ever shoot in one round, even at level 20.
When you say you've never seen a GM disallow the uber-flurry, do you mean to say that you've played in a game with a sohei and the GM OKed it and wasn't dismayed by the number of attacks, or that you just never had an archer sohei around but GMs seem to be OK with it?
It's due to a very sneaky oversight in the way the archetype was written, but technically the exact wording of the printed version does allow this (the archetype just intended to give more armor proficiencies, missing that some of the flurry restrictions were in the same section when it said to replace the section). I don't know any GM who has allowed it (much like the uber-flurry that is unintentionally possible with sohei using Manyshot and Rapid Shot), and the original designer of the archetype didn't intend it, and then with SKR's clarification, that's the final nail in the coffin.You wouldn't happen to have a link to that clarification would you?
Also, I don't know any GM's who haven't allowed the uber flurry. Considering that a Zen Archer can fire 2d10 die arrows at only 2 attacks less and is substantially less MAD with better ability synergy, it isn't actually unbalanced (comparatively).
If you're referring to the clarification by the original author, it's here.
I haven't seen any posts by Sean specifically about the topic of sohei's flurrying in armor, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I haven't seen the SKR post either, but another poster in the thread has claimed it. If they can source it, that's the final nail. No matter what other posters in this thread say, Sean knows his stuff, and his word is binding for PFS at least.
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The 2d10 arrows are at level 20 only and cost 1 ki point an a swift action, so it's at 3 attacks less (the sohei takes the extra attack at the same cost). But level 20 is not where class balance gets decided, as it's hardly ever even used in play.
Starting as soon as the zen archer does more than 1d8 damage with that ability (level 8, when they gain 1d10, which is barely more), the sohei would be making an absurd 7 arrows per round with the uber-flurry and the ki expenditure, 6 arrows without expending any resources (this stacks with haste if you have it for up to 8 shots per round). That's way more than any other character in the game could possibly make. 7 is more than an unhasted fighter, paladin, or ranger could ever shoot in one round, even at level 20.
When you say you've never seen a GM disallow the uber-flurry, do you mean to say that you've played in a game with a sohei and the GM OKed it and wasn't dismayed by the number of attacks, or that you just never had an archer sohei around but GMs seem to be OK with it?
I've played in games that included Sohei's making their "ludicrous" number of attacks. Generally they were less accurate than other classes, or less effective, since they are taking Flurry penalties, Rapid Shot penalties, and Deadly Aim penalties and still have to hit normal AC. Moreover, they can't afford to dump everything but Wisdom like the Zen archer, and so are generally less accurate and have fewer ki points even before applying feat modifiers. They also give up Fast Movement and Unarmed Strike damage in exchange for being able to share their ki abilities with a mount, but don't receive a mount as part of the class, making these neat but sub-par abilities. They also don't get all the nice free archery feats like Zen Archer, and their Mounted Combat bonus feats don't help in this department.
I've played with people running Sohei characters, and yeah, they get a lot of attacks. It doesn't mean they're more effective than anyone else, and they don't even hold the record for most attacks in a round, a distinction which I believe goes to the TWF Pistolero Gunslinger.
It's due to a very sneaky oversight in the way the archetype was written, but technically the exact wording of the printed version does allow this (the archetype just intended to give more armor proficiencies, missing that some of the flurry restrictions were in the same section when it said to replace the section). I don't know any GM who has allowed it (much like the uber-flurry that is unintentionally possible with sohei using Manyshot and Rapid Shot), and the original designer of the archetype didn't intend it, and then with SKR's clarification, that's the final nail in the coffin.You wouldn't happen to have a link to that clarification would you?
Also, I don't know any GM's who haven't allowed the uber flurry. Considering that a Zen Archer can fire 2d10 die arrows at only 2 attacks less and is substantially less MAD with better ability synergy, it isn't actually unbalanced (comparatively).
If you're referring to the clarification by the original author, it's here.
I haven't seen any posts by Sean specifically about the topic of sohei's flurrying in armor, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
that link is pretty old, what Ive seen was really recent, but I could be wrong too. I know what i saw was in connection with the recent monk clarifications.
When looking at the archetype on d20, I can't see anything, that would allow them to flury in armor
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From the SRD.
Sohei, Armor, and Flurry of Blows
While it is not an official clarification, the original author of this archetype stated that the sohei is not intended to be able to flurry while wearing armor. The weapon and armor proficiency section of the archetype was not meant to override the restriction on those aspects of the monk.
From the SRD.
Sohei, Armor, and Flurry of Blows
While it is not an official clarification, the original author of this archetype stated that the sohei is not intended to be able to flurry while wearing armor. The weapon and armor proficiency section of the archetype was not meant to override the restriction on those aspects of the monk.
I said that it wasn't RAI, but its still RAW. Until there is an errata, its legal.
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I said that it wasn't RAI, but its still RAW. Until there is an errata, its legal.From the SRD.
Sohei, Armor, and Flurry of Blows
While it is not an official clarification, the original author of this archetype stated that the sohei is not intended to be able to flurry while wearing armor. The weapon and armor proficiency section of the archetype was not meant to override the restriction on those aspects of the monk.
But you are being told by an official that it wasn't intended to work that way.
But you are being told by an official that it wasn't intended to work that way.I said that it wasn't RAI, but its still RAW. Until there is an errata, its legal.From the SRD.
Sohei, Armor, and Flurry of Blows
While it is not an official clarification, the original author of this archetype stated that the sohei is not intended to be able to flurry while wearing armor. The weapon and armor proficiency section of the archetype was not meant to override the restriction on those aspects of the monk.
Then they should errata and nerf it like they did Firearms (they used to allow one handed with a penalty)
But you are being told by an official that it wasn't intended to work that way.
There was no official change. The designer of that archtype never ment for it to be worded to allow it. My previous statment is true. Until there is an errata it is RAW
'Some person happens to feel one day?' You mean the author, the day he wrote it? So you're going to go with the 'it's RAW so use it!' argument even though the author says, 'I know it came out sounding like this, but I meant this...' just because it hasn't yet been errata'd? And yeah, we generally do use things the way we think they should be played. I didn't need the author to tell me what he meant, it was obvious to me. I was just pointing out the weakness of the 'It's RAW!' argument after you do, in fact, know RAI.I'm sorry I don't really understand this line..
If you're not going to be going with the RAW, then what does it matter what the author happened to intend or not intend? Just go with how YOU see the archetype working and be done with it. That trumps whatever some person you are likely never to meet happens to feel one day, doesn't it?
Frankly, I'm disappointed with Paizo's handling of archetypes being written as errata to a class rather than simply rewriting it out to avoid this kind of confusion. The Sohei is one of the worse archetypes in this respect.
I agree with James here.
It happens quite often that the version of a class, archteype etc. differs in the final printed version from what the author originally submitted. When this is an oversight, Paizo fixes it. Until then - an official errata, an official FAQ or the like - it remains the way it is and may even remain that way forever because it is or becomes the intended version.
Note also that in the specific instance of the author the post of him that I recall stated explicitly that his word has no weight since Paizo does change things intentionally from time to time.
It is one thing if a wording is unclear, then a post or FAQ can clarify it (though as has been noted, Paizo has changed rulings and FAQs before, so YMMV there). If something is written completely different, as in the case of the Sohei, then at least at our table we wait if it is officially errataed/FAQed, because before that we don't know what the final version really may be :-)
We only change it if we have a problem with it. In the case of the Sohei, I personally don't see the problem.
Regarding the original question, I don't think that Zen Archers outdamage optimized archers.
I do think that they are one of the best class/archetype combos there is, though. Currently I am playing one in Serpent Skull, and the great selection of bonus feats allowed me to invest in feats like great fortitude, endurance, skill focus and so on without becoming ineffective. So I can have some great extras (like special profession just for RP purposes), great defenses and great mobility while being quite decent at offense.
So when you are looking purely at damage, ZA probably won't win. But if you look at the entire package, they are fantastic and at the very least hold their own compared to the other archer builds :-)
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'Some person happens to feel one day?' You mean the author, the day he wrote it? So you're going to go with the 'it's RAW so use it!' argument even though the author says, 'I know it came out sounding like this, but I meant this...' just because it hasn't yet been errata'd? And yeah, we generally do use things the way we think they should be played. I didn't need the author to tell me what he meant, it was obvious to me. I was just pointing out the weakness of the 'It's RAW!' argument after you do, in fact, know RAI.I'm sorry I don't really understand this line..
If you're not going to be going with the RAW, then what does it matter what the author happened to intend or not intend? Just go with how YOU see the archetype working and be done with it. That trumps whatever some person you are likely never to meet happens to feel one day, doesn't it?
Frankly, I'm disappointed with Paizo's handling of archetypes being written as errata to a class rather than simply rewriting it out to avoid this kind of confusion. The Sohei is one of the worse archetypes in this respect.
I agree with James here.
It happens quite often that the version of a class, archteype etc. differs in the final printed version from what the author originally submitted. When this is an oversight, Paizo fixes it. Until then - an official errata, an official FAQ or the like - it remains the way it is and may even remain that way forever because it is or becomes the intended version.
Note also that in the specific instance of the author the post of him that I recall stated explicitly that his word has no weight since Paizo does change things intentionally from time to time.It is one thing if a wording is unclear, then a post or FAQ can clarify it (though as has been noted, Paizo has changed rulings and FAQs before, so YMMV there). If something is written completely different, as in the case of the Sohei, then at least at our table we wait if it is officially...
But there is a sticky note on the rule telling you that it wasn't printed incorrectly and that a Sohei
cannot wear armor while flurrying.
@Shallowsoul: what do you mean, can you plz give me alink?
in are group we have a lot if range people plus a zen archer we play form 1-to about 10 and from what i have seen is that the range fighter dose more damage with one shot an was doing about 1d8+ 12-15 point of damage a shot with a realty good to hit
the zen was doing a little bet less but hit more of the time with the rolling two dice thing and had more shots to fire
that being said in are outer game i fell my wiz is doing more then are zen arc
that being said g-bow is the man reason for that and were only level 4
so i think that there damage per shot is a bit lower but they have a better to hit with to dice and more shots there for they may have more damage over the long run