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If the Adlet's background information is any indication, PFRPG doesn't consider cannibalism evil. Just creepy to most cultures.
They also have no social taboo against cannibalism, and their practice of eating their dead rather than burying them only further builds misconceptions about their morality.
Some cultures eat their dead as a sign of respect.
This is all imo, of course :) D&D / PF is not an exercise in cultural relativity by RAW. Anything can be construed as acceptable according to some culture. In the game what that means is some cultures are "evil". Is it evil in modern culturally relatavistic terms? Maybe not. But in the game, some things are just... evil. Like canabilism. Or casting a spell with the "evil" descriptor :) Would it change your alignment? Not, I think, as an isolated incident. Make a habit out of it and you're evil :)
I would extend the definition of canibalism to intelligent beings of similar form (humanoids / demihumans / humans). The reason it doesn't extend that way in rl is simple. There are no humanoids besides us. If neandertals were still around and you ate one, canibalism would be the description. Again, imo. Canibalism being a classic fact of Orc culture (I'm not sure about orcs in Golarion) probably helps explain the evil label for them. On the other hand, a dragon (being non humanoid) snacks on some human burglar (or Halfling one), then it's just lunch :)
Doing such an act (eating fellow humanoids) secretively, hiding it from your fellows who might wonder who's next on the menu, is obviously crossing some line, which is chaotic as well.
So, chaotic and evil :D
All, again, imo and you are quite welcome to yours. What would the world come to if everyone agreed on an alignment thread? probably the end of the universe...
Here is my issue with treating it as chaotic and evil. Imagine you had a character who obeys the local law(which allows for canabalism), is kind to others, helps those in need, protects the innocent and never intentionally hurts someone else. He does all this based on strong moral beliefs. This character also fights a lot of orcs and eats their bodies afterwards. So he is chaotic evil.
He could be the most helpful guy in the party who does the most to further the cause of good, but if he eats too many orcs, he will be chaotic evil.
First of all if he eats too many Orcs... parasites man. That's all I'm going to say about it :) And, more seriously, if he does all that good stuff, it counterbalances the evil act of canibalism. If he is an otherwise stand up nice guy it would take a whole lot of canibalism to push him over to evil. As for it being defined as "legal" in a given society, well, lawful evil is still evil. Evil doesn't necesarily mean they kick kids and dogs and go around angry all the time either. Some people leave the "evil" at work and are good to those closest to them...
It should be considered an evil act only if barbecue sauce is not involved ;)
Pulled long pork.
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If the Adlet's background information is any indication, PFRPG doesn't consider cannibalism evil. Just creepy to most cultures.
Yep. This is something that gets lost frequently. It's easy for things that aren't evil to be creepy and unsettling to some. But being creepy doesn't make them evil.
And again, any classification of cannibalism as evil that throws those Tibetan monks under the evilbus is one I'd rather avoid. (Yeah, I'd say those practices creep me out. But I would have to be on one hell of a high horse to point at those guys and yell EVIL!)
Regarding defining "monster" by "can't imagine them living in a society"...
I can imagine a lot of fantastic non-evil societies that a lot of "monsters" would fit into. (and I do love me some fantastic societies in my fantasy games)
First of all if he eats too many Orcs... parasites man. That's all I'm going to say about it :)
There can be dangers with cannabalism. I remember years ago seeing a programme on tv about how the women of highland New Guinea tribes suffered from a terrible debilitating disease later in life because they were forced to eat the brains of humans that were cannibalised by the tribe. Apparently, the men of the tribe got to eat the "good" bits first (whatever the hell those parts were) and the poor women were forced to eat the less desirable parts later after the men had dined which included the brain.
I guess the lesson from this is if your character is a cannibal in Pathfinder, then keep away from the brains!
First of all if he eats too many Orcs... parasites man. That's all I'm going to say about it :)There can be dangers with cannabalism. I remember years ago seeing a programme on tv about how the women of highland New Guinea tribes suffered from a terrible debilitating disease later in life because they were forced to eat the brains of humans that were cannibalised by the tribe. Apparently, the men of the tribe got to eat the "good" bits first (whatever the hell those parts were) and the poor women were forced to eat the less desirable parts later after the men had dined which included the brain.
I guess the lesson from this is if your character is a cannibal in Pathfinder, then keep away from the brains!
It's a form of "Mad Cow Disease." The good parts are the thighs and wings.
If the Adlet's background information is any indication, PFRPG doesn't consider cannibalism evil. Just creepy to most cultures.Yep. This is something that gets lost frequently. It's easy for things that aren't evil to be creepy and unsettling to some. But being creepy doesn't make them evil.
And again, any classification of cannibalism as evil that throws those Tibetan monks under the evilbus is one I'd rather avoid. (Yeah, I'd say those practices creep me out. But I would have to be on one hell of a high horse to point at those guys and yell EVIL!)
Regarding defining "monster" by "can't imagine them living in a society"...
I can imagine a lot of fantastic non-evil societies that a lot of "monsters" would fit into. (and I do love me some fantastic societies in my fantasy games)
I agree with all of this, and take it to heart (to some degree at least) in my homebrew world setting.
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If the Adlet's background information is any indication, PFRPG doesn't consider cannibalism evil. Just creepy to most cultures.Yep. This is something that gets lost frequently. It's easy for things that aren't evil to be creepy and unsettling to some. But being creepy doesn't make them evil.
And again, any classification of cannibalism as evil that throws those Tibetan monks under the evilbus is one I'd rather avoid. (Yeah, I'd say those practices creep me out. But I would have to be on one hell of a high horse to point at those guys and yell EVIL!)
Regarding defining "monster" by "can't imagine them living in a society"...
I can imagine a lot of fantastic non-evil societies that a lot of "monsters" would fit into. (and I do love me some fantastic societies in my fantasy games)
And yet eating the food prepared by using the Cook People hex on dead bodies is still Evil by RAW.
Whatever your race. Whatever your culture and its alignment.
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If the Adlet's background information is any indication, PFRPG doesn't consider cannibalism evil. Just creepy to most cultures.Yep. This is something that gets lost frequently. It's easy for things that aren't evil to be creepy and unsettling to some. But being creepy doesn't make them evil.
And again, any classification of cannibalism as evil that throws those Tibetan monks under the evilbus is one I'd rather avoid. (Yeah, I'd say those practices creep me out. But I would have to be on one hell of a high horse to point at those guys and yell EVIL!)
Regarding defining "monster" by "can't imagine them living in a society"...
I can imagine a lot of fantastic non-evil societies that a lot of "monsters" would fit into. (and I do love me some fantastic societies in my fantasy games)
And yet eating the food prepared by using the Cook People hex on dead bodies is still Evil by RAW.
Whatever your race. Whatever your culture and its alignment.
Apparently whatever is evil about that is tied into that hex then, because the evil declaration turns up nowhere else amongst all the other places it could show up.
Personally I'd attribute it to wantonly turning dead people into a source of power in a demeaning way, as opposed to the other cultures' show of respect or the survivor's need to survive.
I can live with saying Cook People is evil while cannibalism isn't necessarily so.
A corpse is just lifeless matter, wether it used to make up a feeling human being or just an unthinking giant ant. You're not hurting anyone by eating it, unless you specifically killed it to eat it.
As a matter of fact by eating foes you killed in battle, you are being both economical and ecological. They had to die anyway, because they attacked you, so why not take their meat, and spare a few innocent rabbits. It's not like they need it, it would otherwise just rot and pollute the environment.
Really there is absolutely nothing evil about cannibalism, or eating any other sentient creatures.
Killing them for the purpose of eating them I would consider evil in most cases. Because that is unnecessary killing for personal gain. But once dead, you might as well eat them.
I would make an exception if you were to eat someone in disregard of the objection of relatives or loved ones. They should have first say in what is supposed to happen with the remains.
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Its probably best to view it in terms of the game world culture. If the local civilization regards cannibalism as evil then it is evil. If they don't, then its not.
The problem here is that Good and Evil are cosmic forces.
If a paladin wilfully commits an Evil act, he loses his powers.
Regardless of whether he or the local civilisation thinks the act was actually evil.
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Apparently whatever is evil about that is tied into that hex then, because the evil declaration turns up nowhere else amongst all the other places it could show up.
Personally I'd attribute it to wantonly turning dead people into a source of power in a demeaning way, as opposed to the other cultures' show of respect or the survivor's need to survive.
I can live with saying Cook People is evil while cannibalism isn't necessarily so.
What then about Lizardmen casually hunting and eating other sentient beings, while still being depicted as neutral ?
Way I would do it in my game is "what would the owner of the dead body think ?". If he would agree with you eating his body, then neutral. If he would disagree, then evil.
Its probably best to view it in terms of the game world culture. If the local civilization regards cannibalism as evil then it is evil. If they don't, then its not.
Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. So a character is not evil, as long as he only enslaves people in cheliax, but as soon as he continues to do so in Andoran his alignment shifts?
I still don't think a character's alignment, and what defines as evil and what doesn't should be dependent on the people around them. Your own alignment doesn't change when doing the same thing among a different civilization (however that might be defined). The only thing that changes is how you are viewed by the people around.
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It's a form of "Mad Cow Disease"...There can be dangers with cannabalism. I remember years ago seeing a programme on tv about how the women of highland New Guinea tribes suffered from a terrible debilitating disease later in life because they were forced to eat the brains of humans that were cannibalised by the tribe. Apparently, the men of the tribe got to eat the "good" bits first (whatever the hell those parts were) and the poor women were forced to eat the less desirable parts later after the men had dined which included the brain.
I guess the lesson from this is if your character is a cannibal in Pathfinder, then keep away from the brains!
It's Kuru. Both Kuru and Mad Cow are forms of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy AKA prion disease. I bet Purify Food and Drink takes care of prions, though, since it can handle all forms of "diseased, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food."
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Its probably best to view it in terms of the game world culture. If the local civilization regards cannibalism as evil then it is evil. If they don't, then its not.Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. So a character is not evil, as long as he only enslaves people in cheliax, but as soon as he continues to do so in Andoran his alignment shifts?Southern Avistan would be a civilization, whereas Andoran and Cheliax are just two nations within that civilization.
Since Cheliax has evil rulers its laws allow for evil acts. It doesn't redefine anything that is evil as good though.
A worshiper of Sarenrae from Cheliax or from Andoran would still follow the same morale code.
Actually, Andoran is quite the exception in the Inner Sea region as far as slavery is concerned. Cheliax is indeed evil, but that is due to its links with Hell. Osirion, Taldor, Qadira are not evil AFAIK and yet slavery is quite legal there too.
Now I have to wonder if Dune's Fremen are evil...
Was there ever any doubt ?
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It's a form of "Mad Cow Disease"...It's Kuru. Both Kuru and Mad Cow are forms of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy AKA prion disease. I bet Purify Food and Drink takes care of prions, though, since it can handle all forms of "diseased, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food."
Hmm, I personally think it 'wouldn't' work. If I'm reading it right, it's a mutation, not contamination.
But I'm not a biologist.
I remember a game where my character argued with the rest of the party about cooking and eating dead sahuagin. While they agreed with her that it would be wrong to do the same to an orc corpse, they regarded sahuagin as mere "fish" -- which really did not sit well with my character, a mariner who spent most of her life at sea and who owed allegiance to a triton queen.
Recently while salvaging valuables from defeated bugbears my Half Orc Ranger used Survival skills to render several pounds of rations from his defeated foes. I considered this good roleplaying for a true neutral ranger of monstrous ancestry raised among mountainous barbarian tribes. While I attempted to hide this action from other party members the players in my group considered it an evil act. I dont quite understand the Alignment system in spite of my many years as a player.
Help me out. Did I go to far?
Ral the Half Orc Ranger
Corpses are objects. Not people. Eating corpses, no matter their source, is not evil. It's gross, but it's critical to realize that gross, taboo, or socially acceptable has absolutely nothing to do with alignment. Alignment in D&D/Pathfinder is not a cultural construct, it is a simple system of absolutes that allows for a very large and varied set of characters.
Here are the actual alignment rules. There are specific things that define good (altruism, protecting others, respecting innocents/sentients, etc). There are specific things that define evil (cruelty, oppression, killing). Then there is the exceedingly large middle ground between the two called neutral (which is generally what you get when you mash the two together).
Taboos against cannibalism are a social construct (some cultures consider it sacred, most consider it abominable). Your character is not doing anything aligned by simply eating his already-dead enemies (it's not even a matter of lawful vs chaotic in most cases). Their characters may believe you are evil (see social taboo), and it's natural for their to be social stigmas should it get out (again, social constructs). But you're not being evil and the alignment rules say as much.
Now what's important to understand as far as the difference between cannibals and villainous cannibals is that in your character's case, you are not killing sentient creatures just to eat them. A villainous cannibal, however, will resort to evils to eat sentient creatures, such as murder, oppression, and hurting others.
For example. If you have a group of characters who become trapped in the wilderness like the Donner Party and when people begin dropping like flies, the characters eat them. The characters actually aren't doing anything D&D/PF defines as evil by merely eating a mindless, lifeless, corpse (which in D&D terms is an object, like a door). Meanwhile, if you have a character who is ambushing barkeepers when they go to take out the trash, murdering them, and then eating their remains...well, the eating of the remains is still not evil. However, all that murder and stuff you're doing along with it is definitely evil.
Can a PC be resurrected if they are just mostly in the bellies of the other PCs in the group? If they can be, will the group members become hungry again or do they get to stay full?
Can a PC be resurrected if they are just mostly in the bellies of the other PCs in the group? If they can be, will the group members become hungry again or do they get to stay full?
Well I know you're probably joking, but in all seriousness it depends on which spell you use. Raise dead returns the body to life but needs it to be mostly intact, so while some of them could have been eaten you'd want their limbs and such to still be intact.
Alternatively, spells like resurrection only require a piece of the body. At that point, you could take a lock of hair, a fingernail, or a discarded bone and raise the fallen. Seems like the state of the other portions of the body are rather irrelevant, and nothing suggests that it re-assembles you from the previously existing pieces, so I imagine the stomach of whatever ate you would remain quite sated. :P
Of course, there are much better uses for bodies if you have other alternatives. (^.^)
It's Kuru. Both Kuru and Mad Cow are forms of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy AKA prion disease. I bet Purify Food and Drink takes care of prions, though, since it can handle all forms of "diseased, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food."
The link to Kuru was interesting. One part of the link stated as follows:
In the 2011 video game Dead Island, Kuru is presented as the inspiration for a disease which turns its victims into cannibalistic zombies.
Now I know where zombies come from.
This ruling is arbitrary and culturally insensitive.
If eating humanoids is evil, then why isn't necromancy automatically evil?
You will have a difficult time convincing me that consuming a dead body's flesh is more evil than enslaving their entire corpse to your will.
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I once ran a wild elf barbarian (very low charisma / low wisdom) into a town that was unknowingly eating humanoids due to a famine.
I knew what it was, but decided that this must be the local custom so I joined in. A few adventures later a noble gold elf was being cremated, and since there were a lot of humans attending the ceremony I made sure to mention he's not on the menu. The looks I got were classic.
Eventually we ran into a party which indicated a local specialty was (Afridhi BBQ) Afridhi were a pretty bad / tough reoccurring foe. However it (the BBQ) wasn't real, so I took it up with the owner for false advertising. We actually ran into some of these bad guys so after tenderizing and cooking, I turned around and gave out samples of the real thing. For some reason the humans were not as interested in a "taste of the enemy" as I was.
I eventually ran this into a personal trait - A taste for the enemy. I'm not sure it would be classified as evil, but definitely not good.
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What then about Lizardmen casually hunting and eating other sentient beings, while still being depicted as neutral ?Apparently whatever is evil about that is tied into that hex then, because the evil declaration turns up nowhere else amongst all the other places it could show up.
Personally I'd attribute it to wantonly turning dead people into a source of power in a demeaning way, as opposed to the other cultures' show of respect or the survivor's need to survive.
I can live with saying Cook People is evil while cannibalism isn't necessarily so.
I don't think they're that casual about it. ;)
Way I would do it in my game is "what would the owner of the dead body think ?". If he would agree with you eating his body, then neutral. If he would disagree, then evil.
This is closer to where I'm coming from, though it's a bit more blurry between how the eatee would view it and how the eater views it(before bringing the "how" and "why" into it, which I still believe is where you find out if it's really evil or not).
The folks those aforementioned tibetan monks are doing their practices on share their beliefs, and in PF-land I'd definitely say those guys were in NG/LG territory.
Lizardfolk eat their dead and may hunt other sapient beings if they see the need arising. I'd see them as staying N as long as their eating habits don't become a matter of bloodlust and needless cannibalism.
Got a CG/CN orc culture in my homebrew that has no real cannibalism taboo when it comes to times of great need, like the plane crash/Donner Party situation. It's very much rooted in respecting those that are enabling the others to survive though, and only with those who volunteer their own flesh. There's also a ritualized practice of new chieftain's eating the heart of their predecessor, to pass the wisdom and strength of the old to the young.
That said, I can also imagine a ton of absolutely evil examples of cannibalism, some of them hiding and subverting the examples above for depraved ends.
In the setting for one game in in, we regularly sell the meat from our monstrous foes to an exotic restaurant in the capitol city. The restaurant sells dire bear fondue, dark mantle sushi, blackened troll burger, dragon turtle soup, etc.
GM has ruled it socially exotic, but the culture follows the "looks like you" mentality. For instance, we sold a blue dragon to the restaurant, the meat did not detect evil. Its sort of like those modern places that cook tiger and monkey, only legal.
Did I mention the party is inquisitor and paladin?
It's Kuru. Both Kuru and Mad Cow are forms of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy AKA prion disease. I bet Purify Food and Drink takes care of prions, though, since it can handle all forms of "diseased, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food."The link to Kuru was interesting. One part of the link stated as follows:
In the 2011 video game Dead Island, Kuru is presented as the inspiration for a disease which turns its victims into cannibalistic zombies.
Now I know where zombies come from.
Larry Niven wrote about that in Dream Park, back in 1982.
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What then about Lizardmen casually hunting and eating other sentient beings, while still being depicted as neutral ?Way I would do it in my game is "what would the owner of the dead body think ?". If he would agree with you eating his body, then neutral. If he would disagree, then evil.
I would think the owner of the Dead Body might feel whoever just killed him was EVIL as well. I don't think that's the best PoV to use in the discussion though.
Eating Animals is viewed as EVIL by (some) people in this world. Does that make it evil? What if we just eat cows & pigs (aka the ugly animals), but not horses & dogs (the cute & lovable animals)? Does that make it better now? It somehow seems to. Unless you live in an area where your main choice is dog.
Since we can't agree on non-sentient animals in this world, I'm not surprised we can't do it on sentient "Humanoids" in a completely fantasy environment either.
Like some of the others have said, I'd probably lean on it being evil-lite and keep it as that (specific things like Cook People Hex are stated as EVIL, so they are exceptions - ie specific rules), but without a form of statement about it, I'm not strongly for it being evil.
After all, is it more evil to kill something for Sport (like an Orc), or kill something for a reason, and then use the entirety of the something for food, clothes, weaponry, household goods......
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Lizardfolk eat their dead and may hunt other sapient beings if they see the need arising. I'd see them as staying N as long as their eating habits don't become a matter of bloodlust and needless cannibalism.As I remember their original incarnation, the really cannibalistic ones were the Lizard King subset, which WERE definitely evil, for other reasons as well as this. And evil tribes of regular lizard folk, (usually ruled by a Lizard King) would likely to be cannibals as well. But we are seriously digressing from the original post which is missing a fair amount of context as well. IF the PC is engaging in cannibalism outside of necessity, with the added intent on shock, than I really don't think the nature of the act can be questioned.
Yeah, definitely Neutral. No doubt.
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This event ocurred near the end of our Legacy of Fire campaign. My DM was making the Survival DC pretty tough out in the Desert and rations were scarce. The real motivation for it though was role play. We were already rolling up characters for a new Sandpoint campaign. I wanted my Half Orc to demonstrate some Orcish behaviors to differentiate him from the Human Fighter I am playing now. I hoped to play the characters differently in spite of many mechanical similarities and a Ranger is no Paladin after all. Thank you all for the opinions.I think it would just be a chaotic act. As he is reverting to the savage nature of his CHAOTIC EVIL ancestors, and he is also in survivalist mode way out in the wilds.
Added the bolded part just to be clear
Yeah, definitely Evil. No doubt.Lizardfolk eat their dead and may hunt other sapient beings if they see the need arising. I'd see them as staying N as long as their eating habits don't become a matter of bloodlust and needless cannibalism.As I remember their original incarnation, the really cannibalistic ones were the Lizard King subset, which WERE definitely evil, for other reasons as well as this. And evil tribes of regular lizard folk, (usually ruled by a Lizard King) would likely to be cannibals as well. But we are seriously digressing from the original post which is missing a fair amount of context as well. IF the PC is engaging in cannibalism outside of necessity, with the added intent on shock, than I really don't think the nature of the act can be questioned.
There. Corrected that for you.
YOU might have no doubt about the alignment of the act, but others are entitled to their own point of view, which just might differ from your own.
BTW, if it was clearly and unequivocally Neutral, why would the PC even try to hide it from his fellow party members ?
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BTW, if it was clearly and unequivocally Neutral, why would the PC even try to hide it from his fellow party members ?
Because he's polite?
I think having sex with one's wife is a neutral act at worse, but you don't commonly do it in front of your friends either.
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BTW, if it was clearly and unequivocally Neutral, why would the PC even try to hide it from his fellow party members ?Because he's polite?
I think having sex with one's wife is a neutral act at worse, but you don't commonly do it in front of your friends either.
I did not know that cannibalism in public was frowned upon in Orc society and that eating your enemies was deemed a matter of deeply private life. How prude these Orcs are.
But really, the OP hid it from his fellow party members because he was worried that they might view it as evil, which some did.
Thus the "no doubt" about it being "definitely Neutral" just does not stand to the facts.
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BTW, if it was clearly and unequivocally Neutral, why would the PC even try to hide it from his fellow party members ?Because he's polite?
I think having sex with one's wife is a neutral act at worse, but you don't commonly do it in front of your friends either.
I did not know that cannibalism in public was frowned upon in Orc society and that eating your enemies was deemed a matter of deeply private life. How prude these Orcs are.
But really, the OP hid it from his fellow party members because he was worried that they might view it as evil, which some did.
Thus the "no doubt" about it being "definitely Neutral" just does not stand to the facts.
Icky is not the same as evil. we avoid doing things in front of others we know they will find icky too you know.....
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What if we just eat cows & pigs (aka the ugly animals), but not horses & dogs (the cute & lovable animals)? Does that make it better now? It somehow seems to. Unless you live in an area where your main choice is dog.
Horse meat is rather tasty but expensive and hard to get where I live. The reason I have not and will not try dog is that I think they are ugly animals, eating feces and all. I've already eaten lots of different animals.
But the thought of eating a human? That freaks me out so much I don't even enter katholic churches anymore because of all this "christs blood and body consuming" stuff. Which for me is cannibalism.
Outside the obvious health risks (the fatal prion diseases), I see no evil in eating human meat whatsoever.
Want to know the weird part? I was born and raised jewish, so even drinking blood from other animals is forbidden.
My party chows down on intelligent monsters, sometimes even humanoids. We treat it like a cooking and food tasting mini-game. You liked this, but didn't like that, the cook check made this awful, etc.
Evil? Yeah I've got better things to do as dm. Waste not want not. Plenty of monsters would not be fine fare (trolls), but thri kreen have loved to eat elves across editions.
Ranger should eat whatever he damn well pleases, and the party can butt right out.
BTW, if it was clearly and unequivocally Neutral, why would the PC even try to hide it from his fellow party members ?Because he's polite?
I think having sex with one's wife is a neutral act at worse, but you don't commonly do it in front of your friends either.
Neutral? Surely you mean neutral good or pure good.
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Neutral? Surely you mean neutral good or pure good.BTW, if it was clearly and unequivocally Neutral, why would the PC even try to hide it from his fellow party members ?Because he's polite?
I think having sex with one's wife is a neutral act at worse, but you don't commonly do it in front of your friends either.
I did say 'at worst' for a reason. :-)
And yes, my point was we judge some things we do as being seen as 'icky' to others, and don't do them in front of others, out of courtesy.
Since cannibalism seems to be a cultural thing, some see it as bad, some are indifferent, and some see it as a good thing. I would have to say that it is a Neutral act, that may or may not be illegal where you are. Just as some cultures see certain bodily functions as things to be done in private, in others they are done in public, the act itself neither good nor evil.