Hi All,
Fighter X has a Trip weapon, and has "Enlarge Person" cast on X.
So has a "reach of 10" If a creature Y moves out of a Threatened square - then it would provoke an Attack of Opportunity.
X then chooses to use Trip instead of a normal attack, and Applying his Greater Trip feat, if he succeeds then Y would be knocked prone, provoking "another" (2nd) Attack of Opportunity....
By RAW - you can only have 1 attack of Opportunity per target.
Can you have more than 1 AoO against a single target if they provoke twice?
Would you be able to attack the prone Y?
Further could you then use Vicious stomp feat for a possible 3rd provoke of AoO?
Also - when does the AoO number reset? is it the start of your next turn?
Thanks for Reading
Barry
Quote: By RAW - you can only have 1 attack of Opportunity per target. Not quite, it's one AoO per action that provokes. If a target makes multiple actions that provoke, you can make multiple AoOs with Combat Reflexes.
Quote: Further could you then use Vicious stomp feat for a possible 3rd provoke of AoO? Yes.
Quote: Also - when does the AoO number reset? is it the start of your next turn? Yes.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Barry Wilson 546 wrote: By RAW - you can only have 1 attack of Opportunity per target. Not quite true. A single action only provokes a single AoO. So, if your opponent runs in a circle around you, they only provoke one AoO for it, even though they left several of your threatened squares.
In this case, the first AoO is from the action of leaving your threatened square. The second AoO is from the action of being tripped, so you would get to take another attack (as long as you have Combat Reflexes or another method of getting more than one AoO per round).
Actually I got it wrong about Vicious Stomp. It is possible to get a third AoO with this feat, but not in the situation you described.
For Vicious Stomp to activate, the opponent must fall prone adjacent to you. If your first AoO (the trip) results from them moving towards you out of a square you threaten by reach, your AoO goes off before they step adjacent to you. Therefore, when they land prone, they will provoke from Greater Trip but are not adjacent so they do not provoke from Vicious Stomp.
However, say that the opponent starts adjacent to you and moves away, provoking. You can use your AoO to trip, Greater Trip gets you a second AoO, and Vicious Stomp gets you a third.
RumpinRufus wrote: Quote: By RAW - you can only have 1 attack of Opportunity per target. Not quite, it's one AoO per action that provokes. If a target makes multiple actions that provoke, you can make multiple AoOs with Combat Reflexes.
Also not quite true. It's one AoO per opportunity. The distinction is important.
Howie23 wrote: RumpinRufus wrote: Quote: By RAW - you can only have 1 attack of Opportunity per target. Not quite, it's one AoO per action that provokes. If a target makes multiple actions that provoke, you can make multiple AoOs with Combat Reflexes.
Also not quite true. It's one AoO per opportunity. The distinction is important. True, an action like trying to trip an adjacent opponent with a whip (w/o Whip Mastery and Improved Trip) could provoke twice.
I believe that the AoO from tripping them with Greater Trip is made without the -4 to their AC, although I could be wrong about that. Something about attacks of opportunity interrupting the flow, and the fact that the enemy is only tripped but not yet prone.
Mergy wrote: I believe that the AoO from tripping them with Greater Trip is made without the -4 to their AC, although I could be wrong about that. Something about attacks of opportunity interrupting the flow, and the fact that the enemy is only tripped but not yet prone. That is correct. They provoke from being tripped, not from falling prone.
Of course, Vicious Stomp, IIRC, does get the -4 to the target's AC, since it is the act of falling prone that sets off the stomp, so the target would be prone for that attack.
Also note that, as far as I know, someone who has been tripped by someone with Greater Trip provokes, not just from the person performing the trip, if they threaten the target, but from any of the other beings which threaten the target of the trip, as well.
Combat Reflexes has other benefits, besides just the extra AoOs, like the ability to take an AoO before you actually get to take your first action during a combat, as long as you have a weapon that can threaten ready in your hand(s).
Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip and Greater Disarm are an ugly, ugly combo, if you have the CMB to support it. Especially in PFS, where there are a large number of humanoid, armed opponents. Ledford wouldn't like an opponent with Combat Reflexes holding a reach weapon, if he has to come out of that Obscuring Mist....
kinevon wrote: Of course, Vicious Stomp, IIRC, does get the -4 to the target's AC, since it is the act of falling prone that sets off the stomp, so the target would be prone for that attack. Actually, since AoO "preempts" the triggering action, Vicious Stomp would adjudicate immediately before the target falls prone. Thus, the target has not fallen prone yet and there is no penalty to their AC. Cinematically speaking, if someone falls prone and prompts a Vicious Stomp, you're catching them off guard and instead of them just falling prone, you slammed your foot into them and smashed them to the ground just as their were starting to lose their balance. In other words, say the person gets a foot-sweep and starts to fall backwards. On their own, they'd just fall over onto their back. But with a vicious stomp, just as their feet are being swept out from under them, you execute something like an axe kick or a downward kick at the abdomen that forcibly pushes them down to the ground.
Kazaan wrote: Actually, since AoO "preempts" the triggering action, Vicious Stomp would adjudicate immediately before the target falls prone. Thus, the target has not fallen prone yet and there is no penalty to their AC. Cinematically speaking, if someone falls prone and prompts a Vicious Stomp, you're catching them off guard and instead of them just falling prone, you slammed your foot into them and smashed them to the ground just as their were starting to lose their balance. In other words, say the person gets a foot-sweep and starts to fall backwards. On their own, they'd just fall over onto their back. But with a vicious stomp, just as their feet are being swept out from under them, you execute something like an axe kick or a downward kick at the abdomen that forcibly pushes them down to the ground. The rules do not mention preempting actions. As soon as the action that provokes happens, the AOO is taken. For movement, this means as soon as someone begins moving out of a threatened square, which is why it 'interrupts' their movement. But there is no state between being upright and being prone in the game, and Stomp doesn't trigger until the target is prone, so you get the prone bonuses.
Vestrial wrote: The rules do not mention preempting actions. As soon as the action that provokes happens, the AOO is taken. For movement, this means as soon as someone begins moving out of a threatened square, which is why it 'interrupts' their movement. But there is no state between being upright and being prone in the game, and Stomp doesn't trigger until the target is prone, so you get the prone bonuses. prd wrote: An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn). "Beginning" to move and "Beginning" to fall prone are no different. The reason the AoO preempts the action is to prevent trip-locking someone. If they're prone, and try to stand, you can't trip them on that AoO because they haven't completed standing yet. If you had to wait until a player actually moved a space out of your threatened square, then they're already out of range to attack. The flow goes as follows:
1) Char A declares a provoking action
2) Char B declares taking attack of opportunity
3) Char B resolves AoO
4) Char A performs provoking action (if still able after AoO)
@Kazaan: I believe you are correct for the reasons you stated. However, the language of vicious stomp clearly state that you receive the AoO when the target falls prone adjacent to you.
Or, in other words its being prone that grants the AoO. Ergo, you would receive the +4 to hit on account of them being prone.
Greater Trip? No dice. We'd go back to the rules you quoted and "interrupt" the act of falling prone. Ergo, no bonuses.
Kazaan wrote: "Beginning" to move and "Beginning" to fall prone are no different. The reason the AoO preempts the action is to prevent trip-locking someone. If they're prone, and try to stand, you can't trip them on that AoO because they haven't completed standing yet. If you had to wait until a player actually moved a space out of your threatened square, then they're already out of range to attack. The flow goes as follows:
1) Char A declares a provoking action
2) Char B declares taking attack of opportunity
3) Char B resolves AoO
4) Char A performs provoking action (if still able after AoO)
Of course beginning to move and beginning to fall are different. The act of moving out of a threatened square is what provokes. Your flow chart is wrong. Declaring an action does not provoke. Beginning said action does. 'Movement,' 'casting,' 'standing.' These are all actions. You interrupt the flow to attack while the action is in progress, not back in time before it began. Stomp provokes when someone falls prone (a better way to word it is 'becomes prone.') There is no melee state of falling. You are either up or you're down. You get tripped, you go prone. The AOO also does not trigger until they are prone.
Krodjin wrote: Greater Trip? No dice. We'd go back to the rules you quoted and "interrupt" the act of falling prone. Ergo, no bonuses. How is that? You have not 'successfully' tripped anyone until they are on the ground...
Vestrial wrote: Krodjin wrote: Greater Trip? No dice. We'd go back to the rules you quoted and "interrupt" the act of falling prone. Ergo, no bonuses. How is that? You have not 'successfully' tripped anyone until they are on the ground... Seven Branched Sword would like to have a word with you...
Rathyr wrote: Seven Branched Sword would like to have a word with you... Are you suggesting that Gtrip activates when using the Seven Branched's ability?
Vestrial wrote: Rathyr wrote: Seven Branched Sword would like to have a word with you... Are you suggesting that Gtrip activates when using the Seven Branched's ability? I believe it's that the sword's ability makes a trip attempt, but doesn't knock the target prone when successful.
Vestrial wrote: Of course beginning to move and beginning to fall are different. The act of moving out of a threatened square is what provokes. Your flow chart is wrong. Declaring an action does not provoke. Beginning said action does. 'Movement,' 'casting,' 'standing.' These are all actions. You interrupt the flow to attack while the action is in progress, not back in time before it began. Stomp provokes when someone falls prone (a better way to word it is 'becomes prone.') There is no melee state of falling. You are either up or you're down. You get tripped, you go prone. The AOO also does not trigger until they are prone. There's not really an official melee state of moving, either, by that logic. You're either in one square or you're in another square, barring special considerations concerning diagonal AoO with a reach weapon. If I'm adjacent to an enemy and I move out to 10', I provoke. But the AoO happens while I'm still in the 5' square; I haven't left it yet. Once I do leave it, I've "moved out of a threatened square" and am now in the 10' square. However, they don't have a 10' reach and couldn't attack me if the AoO didn't preempt the triggering action. It involves no more "going back in time" than a knowledge check "goes back in time" to cause your character to know something that you didn't previously know that they knew. The exact wording on Vicious Stomp is, "Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you..." meaning it's the action of "fall prone" which is forced by the trip that triggers the AoO. If it didn't happen like this, then once you trip someone you could just keep tripping them over and over to keep them down as they'd provoke each time they try to stand. Instead, when they provoke by standing up, they're still prone when you take your AoO; thus your trip is ineffective because they're already on the ground. They take a penalty to AC, but they were on the ground when you took your AoO and they resolve "standing up" after your AoO.
Regarding how you "successfully" trip someone before they end up on the ground, that happens when your roll surpasses their CMD.
Lastly, to put the nail in the coffin...
FAQ wrote: Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.
—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10
[source]
Vicious Stomp is triggered by falling prone, not being prone. So a more complete flowchart is as follows:
Simon declares provoking action.
Garfunkel declares AoO
Garfunkel resolves AoO with Trip
Simon is tripped, provoking AoO by Greater Trip
Garfunkel resolves 2nd AoO
Simon is forced to fall prone, provoking AoO by Vicious Stomp
Garfunkel resolves 3rd AoO
Simon is now prone
Simon declares standing up
Garfunkel declares AoO
Garfunkel resolves AoO
Simon stands up
If it were triggered by being prone, then I could simply walk up next to a person who fell prone last round and get the stomp AoO because they are adjacent to me and "being prone". They have to be in the act of falling for me to take the Stomp AoO; not already on the ground.
Vestrial wrote: Krodjin wrote: Greater Trip? No dice. We'd go back to the rules you quoted and "interrupt" the act of falling prone. Ergo, no bonuses. How is that? You have not 'successfully' tripped anyone until they are on the ground... Logically yes. But in the case of the rules for AoO you don't get the +4 to hit for them being prone with the AoO granted by Greater Trip. Everything about Vicious Stomp implicates that you would get the +4 to hit on account of them being prone - including te FAQ/Errata;
Vicious Stomp FAQ wrote: The Greater Trip feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that you trip. The Vicious Stomp feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that falls prone adjacent to you. If you have both these feats and trip a foe, do you get to make two attacks of opportunity (assuming that you can)?
Yes, the two triggering acts are similar here but they are different. One occurs when you trip a foe. The other occurs when a foe falls prone. It requires a large number of feats to accomplish, but you can really pile on the attacks with this combination.
Because you don't get the Vicious Stomp AoO until they fall prone you get the bonus for attack a foe that is prone.
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