Goblin Squad Member
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Please oh please no mini-games! In most games, they are just distracting players from the fact that crafting sucks.
To make crafting not suck, it has to be more involving. Crafters need to study markets, manage production, secure material supplies, organize logistics for both supplies and crafted products. You can do it by yourself, with guildies, with contractors. You can do it safely in a trade hub or be more opportunist by risking going to remote places where demand and prices are higher. You can specialize into high-end products with low volume and high profits or generalize into mundane stuff with high volume and low profit.
The possibilities are numerous and doing all that requires a lot more than clicking on a "craft" button.
And that's all great Economic stuff which has already been implemented in the game, Captain, but that's Economics, and not Crafting itself. You want to be a merchant, great, that's likely to be part and parcel of the Crafters game, unless you want to outsource the mercantile part of your crafting and just let your settlement supply you with materials, while you supply the merchant with finished goods, and he supplies the world outside the village for you. Which... you know... is how -real life- works, too.
But for the crafting part of the crafting... for the clicking on the buttons to make the sword... which part of that is entertaining to you?
Do you prefer the simple one-click longsword? Or would you rather have to assemble the handle, assemble the handle-wrap, assemble the blade, assemble the pommel, assemble the crossguard, assemble the weapon, polish the weapon, sharpen the weapon, cut the bloodgroove, etch the blade, and inscribe the crossguard? Would you rather each of those steps was a one-click process, or that each of those steps also required multiple segments of interaction?
If the crafting contains a mini-game to stitch, a mini-game to forge, a mini-game to smelt, and a mini-game to etch, but ALSO contains a 'Take 10' button that skips the mini-game for a simple progress bar, are you more or less bothered by the inclusion of the mini-game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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But for the crafting part of the crafting... for the clicking on the buttons to make the sword... which part of that is entertaining to you?Do you prefer the simple one-click longsword? Or would you rather have to assemble the handle, assemble the handle-wrap, assemble the blade, assemble the pommel, assemble the crossguard, assemble the weapon, polish the weapon, sharpen the weapon, cut the bloodgroove, etch the blade, and inscribe the crossguard? Would you rather each of those steps was a one-click process, or that each of those steps also required multiple segments of interaction?
For me the fun is in finding the multitudes of variation including the pluses and minuses for each combination (hoping there are pluses and minuses for each possible combination of materials for each component which then combine to make the whole).
The best crafting system I have ever experienced was in Saga of Ryzom...after 8 years in game people were still experimenting with different recipes to develop new min/max combinations for new purposes and class combinations. My wife was one of the games best 2H sword crafters and we spent most of our time hunting new creatures and exploring new areas for the sole purpose of acquiring new crafting materials to experiment with...that is how crafting drove our game, and similar to how I hope crafting is done in PfO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To me this sounds as if you are asking for crafting to be made fun to those who do not enjoy crafting. My wife and I are primarily crafters, we play a game until we have mastered the crafting system, then unfortunately, there usually is not much to hold our interest. I want to craft for the challenge of figuring out better/different recipes...not to play some minigame over and over.
I would prefer that instead of trying to make different aspects of the game appeal to everyone, insure PvP appeals to PvPers, crafting appeals to crafting, and exploring appeals to exploring, etc...then give us the complexity in each area to allow us to invest time and effort in those we wish to.
Great post OP.
Thank you, KitNyx! The point of these forums, and this post, is to both ask the devs to pay attention to this oft overlooked portion of games, and to get more feedback from the community on it. I believe they've taken to calling it 'crowd forging'?
And let's crowdforge over this a bit! Really, -WHAT IS- fun in crafting!? What is it to you? What is it to me? What is it to Holey Knight and Nihimon?
Some people may enjoy the research aspect, putting items together in unusual combinations to get certain benefits...
So what if blade length was a modular thing? What if blades <12 inches (at 3 inches per blade segment) were daggers, and blades between 12 and 19 inches were short swords, and blades with 20-41 inches were long swords, and blades with 41-50 inches were bastard swords, and blades over 50 inches (up to 66 inches) were greatswords? And you could curve those blade shapes in the crafter to make a scimitar, or a kukri, or a falchion, or remove every other segment to make a rapier ('thinning' the blade) within certain length catagories, and each adjustment to blade length and handle length and pommel weight and hand-guard size was an adjustment on weapon speed, damage, accuracy, critical effect, and durability... that each of those was a trade-off for the weapon in the realm of .5%... so that a longsword does logically more damage than a dagger, but has a somewhat slower attack speed. Then a really long dagger does more damage than a really short dagger, but the really short dagger is a quicker, more accurate jab.
Is that kind of complexity and research what you want to know/see/intuit/play with, or are you looking more like the GW2 method of crafting, where you have recipes for a few basic things unlocked as you skill up, then you combine them together to make more effective things: I make a wooden blade-handle, then I make a dragon hide strip, then I combine them together with basic twine (a consumeable crafting ingredient purchased from trainers, merchants, and cat-lovers) in my 'research' window and learn... ta-da! A recipe for dragon-hide blade-grips! Or even more macro than that? In GW2 you literally research a kind of inscription, say, Valkyrie for +Toughness and +Power, and then combine a longsword blade, a blade handle, and your Valkyrie Inscription to make a Valkyrie Longsword. A sword that does Longsword-family damage, and gives +toughness and +power. The only 'meta' part is the inscription, which is made from a dowel (refine logs into planks, planks into dowel) and some body parts: ie blood, bone, horn, claw, fang, etc...
For me it's more the first one. I want some -control- and intuitiveness in what I'm doing. Moreover, I want the ability to distinguish my blades from others. If a +5 weapon is ~50% more effective than a basic weapon, I'd actually be pretty pleased if my work could make a sword skewed in any direction on the chart at ~20% by level 20. I think people would pay quite a lot of money for that. While I don't mind so much putting 'one unit of wood, four units of metal, one unit of hide' into an interface and pushing the craft button, I want each of those units to have some influence on what I'm crafting. The idea of 'bronze blade, iron blade, cold iron blade, steel blade, darksteel blade, mithral blade, adamantine blade' leaves me a bit 'cold'.
So: In Short:
*Crafting is more fun for me when: I can control and customize the product more than simply 'being able to make the same thing as everyone else'.
*What I enjoy about crafting is: the ability to put something of my own effort persistently out into the world, particularly when people recognize it is mine.
I went a long long way in GW2 to hunt down a very rare type of recipe that spent my karma to make weapons other people could use. Almost no one was making that kind of weapon and shield, and I felt pretty spiffy for having been able to supply certain members of my circle of friends with those toys. They looked interesting, and behaved interestingly with a slightly odd mix of stats that couldn't be gotten through the traditional dowel/inscription system. Big high point for me in GW2.
Never came close to -touching- the pride I felt at some of the admittedly middling quality stuff I created in SW:G. The crafting in that game was so complex that really paying -attention- was an extremely rewarding effort. I really had control in what I was pumping out, and I went to no less than three planets scavenging materials for that blaster pistol. But when I was done, by golly, it was -mine-. It was hacked, tweaked, and optimized, and made of the very best materials I could suck, mine, or coerce out of the ground, trees, and beasties. And it had my -name- on it when I was done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SoR was -excellent-! I played a creepy tree-man armor crafter in that game. The masky tree people were interesting, to begin with, but by the time my three-month-or-so run of the game was up I had barely begun scratching the sheer amount of interest you could really generate in their system.
So you don't want just 'iron swords' either. You'd rather have additives and alchemy, mettalurgy and skill, all playing parts in the way your final item comes out. Getting potent fluxes from your local alchemist to purify the metal and give bonuses on your own checks and tricks for making the certain stats of materials go up or down the directions you want them to be...
So the +1 Sword that comes out of the enchanter also has a host of minor changes, up and/or down, depending on how you did, and what you did, on your end of the crafting?
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Goblin Squad Member
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+1 on a robust crafting system!
While I am admittedly do not personally have the patience for the complexity of a full system (ala SW:G), I get bored beyond belief with the standard practice of mine a node in the world --> find a crafting station --> select a recipe --> watch an animation --> done.
It's also worth noting that when you talk to people about their memories of games like SW:G, that featured a complex crafting system, and ask them about the players they remember from those games, inevitably they mention a crafter. I have spent years in other games, could not tell you one name of one person who has many anything I have used. But 10 years later I can recall the names of numerous vendors from Galaxies who made my weapons and armor. It took someone dedicated and proficient, and those people were rewarded in kind for their time and efforts, instead of being relegated to a string of text that says 'Crafted by...' on an auction house listing.
When I was in beta for another MMO (that I won't mention by name), we spent some time discussing with the developers the crafting issue. Most member of my testing group were in agreeance that a more robust system was always preferable to a more automated and mindless one. But the developers stuck to their guns, letting us know that in their minds 'crafting was not heroic'. This being their justification for a shallow and tacked on system.
I am inclined to disagree with this statement. I think heroism has many faces, and it can't be pared down to just killing bad guys. What's more, a game should stand first and foremost on what is FUN, and there are people out there for whom the social aspect is what is fun. Becoming famous because you make a quality item can be equally rewarded for many people as being famous because you downed a boss first. And you would be amiss to discount this group.
So up with crafting! And any social, community driven professions and skills! A strong community is build on community interactions, and a strong community sticks with its game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And while it would be fun to leave it at that, I think Blaeringr is actually correct, but that he's meaning "newbs" and "veterans" as those at the bottom and top, respectively, of the "normal power curve" that Ryan mentions for "Heroic Adventurers".
Very helpful, Nihimon, thanks! Much more constructive than the 'pooh-poohing' I was feeling from Blae.
That 'newb to veteran' curve appears to still leave a -lot- of room for disparity. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that your average 'vet' will -still- be able to walk away from an encounter with ten newbies with little more than a hand-cramp from all his button-pushing destruction. And he's not likely to bother and try to loot the bodies afterward, either.
I'm still getting the idea from this post that A crafter being able to push weapons and arms upwards of 2-3 *times* the effectiveness of a baseline newbie sword isn't out of the question.
"Balance comes when you have conflict between groups of heroic adventurers. In such encounters, the absolute age of the characters should be less important than their tactics, gear, coordination, and player skill."
This is in regards to middle level, 6-10, adventurers. Above level 10, arguably the latter 70+% of your characters life, if the training model follows EVE's exponential growth style, you will be pushing into "Vet Territory". Why shouldn't a veteran smith make swords and armor that tip the balance as much as having another party member in the mix? If his full gear added 25% effectiveness to four party members, he is a virtual, no-HP fifth party member. Very much in the same way as adding another member of the party or adding full WBL makes an encounter +1 EL for Pathfinder!
I think that handles the question 'what about balance'? Since it was never the intent of this original post to say 'by how much', but to ask 'what can we do to make crafting more enjoyable and entertaining for all players', I hope we can move on?
The Devs have to give us more hard numbers before we can give feedback on hard-number issues. We can only brainstorm and salivate.
Also: In Pathfinder, you pay 2/8/18/32/50 THOUSAND gold for simple +1 to +5 bonuses. Don't tell me an 'effective' +2 over and above that (effectively an ADDITIONAL 48k PER SALE) isn't worth the time it takes to level a character that far! As in Mithral Breastplate, player master-crafted goods may become the only 'real choice for enchanting'.
In Pathfinder there are only two kinds of armor 'worth' enchanting, outside of very specific circumstances. Worth wearing, really. Mithral breastplate is so cost-effective and effort saving with the movement, sleeping in, and AC bonuses, that it becomes the light/medium armor of choice. If you are going to wear heavy armor, outside of certain noteable exceptions, you wear Adamantine Full-Plate. You build your character with the armor type in mind, you save up to get it as your second or third purchase, you never look back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And let's crowdforge over this a bit! Really, -WHAT IS- fun in crafting!? What is it to you? What is it to me? What is it to Holey Knight and Nihimon?
To me, in the past, it's always been trying to fully engage the game as an individual. I wanted to be completely self-sufficient. It's probably the main reason I quit playing EQ2 - I was spending all my time working up crafting on different alts because I couldn't do everything I wanted on a single char.
What I've come to realize is that I might very well choose not to do any crafting in PFO. One of the primary motivators for doing my own crafting in other games is because the market was a joke - the things I wanted to buy simply weren't available.
I expect I will specialize much more in PFO than I have in other games. I probably won't know exactly what specializations I will choose until much more information has been released.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I was in beta for another MMO (that I won't mention by name), we spent some time discussing with the developers the crafting issue. Most member of my testing group were in agreeance that a more robust system was always preferable to a more automated and mindless one. But the developers stuck to their guns, letting us know that in their minds 'crafting was not heroic'. This being their justification for a shallow and tacked on system.
I am inclined to disagree with this statement. I think heroism has many faces, and it can't be pared down to just killing bad guys. What's more, a game should stand first and foremost on what is FUN, and there are people out there for whom the social aspect is what is fun. Becoming famous because you make a quality item can be equally rewarded for many people as being famous because you downed a boss first. And you would be amiss to discount this group.
Nuada. Hercules. Anyone else who cranks out their version of 'Excalibur'. 'Nuff said.
Not only should crafting be fun, it should be as fun and involved as slaying monsters!
Adventurers:
* Travel to dungeons.
* Make tactical decisions about arms and gear to benefit them in both their current situation, and in general.
* Spend their time and money on tools and equipment to get them deeper into the dungeon landscape and fight bigger, richer monsters.
* Have to deal with monsters that want to cut their hamstrings, chew their guts out, and lay eggs in their skulls.
Crafters:
* Travel to nodes AND markets.
* Make educated decisions about tools and workspace to maximize their productivity and increase their efficiency or range of proficiency.
* Spend time and money on tools and equipment to get them richer contracts, and craft better, more rewarding 'stuff'.
* Have to deal with rival merchants and bandits, who want to cut their purse strings, chew up their profit margins, and lay eggs in their... no wait...
So you can already see the similarities. Why should it be any different, when you have already gathered your tools (arms and armor/forge and hammer), gotten your resources together (HP, Spells, Mana/Iron, Wood, Leather, Elemental Flame), and headed to the dungeon (reversed for crafters/adventurers), that the FUN PART should then be so wildly different? Adventurers blast their way through the rank and file baddies to eventually get to the boss monster and have a rewarding, entertaining experience. Why are crafters so often stuck with 'aaaaand click. YAY!'
If 'and click yay!' is your style of crafting, okay, why can't we support that with a 'take 10' button, and make the actual act of crafting SO MUCH MORE involved for those who want it to be? And then reward them for being more involved?
If "I want to push a button and it's not fair that you get benefits from playing minigames I don't want to play" is your argument, then maybe you should be more concerned with battling monsters and getting resources and protecting the settlements of those who do?
(Obviously not aiming all this at you, Ryan, I'm just stream-of-consciousness writing!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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That 'newb to veteran' curve appears to still leave a -lot- of room for disparity.
...
I'm still getting the idea from this post that A crafter being able to push weapons and arms upwards of 2-3 *times* the effectiveness of a baseline newbie sword isn't out of the question.
... the absolute age of the characters should be less important than their tactics, gear, coordination, and player skill.
I don't really know what the devs have planned with respect to the "power curve" for gear, but I feel very confident that they'll hit their mark when it comes to making combat dangerous, even when you're up against characters significantly less trained than you.
I think the "Old Vets" will only be truly "scary" when they're in their "good" gear, and even then a handful of "Heroic Adventurers" will give them a real challenge.
When I was in beta for another MMO (that I won't mention by name), we spent some time discussing with the developers the crafting issue. Most member of my testing group were in agreeance that a more robust system was always preferable to a more automated and mindless one. But the developers stuck to their guns, letting us know that in their minds 'crafting was not heroic'. This being their justification for a shallow and tacked on system.
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Heh, that sounds like Warhammer. Their crafting system sucked.
Given the fact that finished goods will be handled by NPCs in a production facility, I hope we are able to have a really detailed crafting system. Something that will be fun for those who only want to craft and PvE. Guess we will have to wait to hear more about their plans for the crafting system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I've come to realize is that I might very well choose not to do any crafting in PFO. One of the primary motivators for doing my own crafting in other games is because the market was a joke - the things I wanted to buy simply weren't available.I expect I will specialize much more in PFO than I have in other games. I probably won't know exactly what specializations I will choose until much more information has been released.
It's the intention of the development team that virtually everything you buy, touch, use, and eat will be crafted by players in some fashion. (Might just be a lot of 'automated crafting' going on by NPC citizenry.) It shouldn't be necessary for *you* to contribute to the economy beyond kill/loot/spend. And speaking just for my fledgeling 12 citizen settlement (so far), =I'd= certainly welcome your sword in protecting caravans, solving wolf attacks, putting down goblin outbreaks, and defending the mine!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I love the idea of an in-depth crafting system. Thanks for pushing the idea, Purple!
I think my idea of an enjoyable crafting system would be part experimentation, part modular, and part bonus from exceptional materials, additives, and the like(some crafted, some acquired).
I'd like to be in a moddable mini-game, with an option to vary certain elements(i.e. using starmetal in place of mithril, or displacer beast hide instead of standard leather) and be able to experiment that way. Add in the ability to get a bonus on your crafting check for using, say, white dragon blood to quench the blade, or elemental fire while tempering, or an alchemical flux during smelting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect I will specialize much more in PFO than I have in other games. I probably won't know exactly what specializations I will choose until much more information has been released.
They stated that they would like to reward specialization while still allowing people to do what they want. With a player economy, you may not be able to buy what you want right away, but if you make a contract with a craftsman to make something, you can get it, rather than having to camp for it.
I would love to see being able to create different qualities of different parts of an item. You said different parts of the armor and weapons before, you'd have the band, facets and gems of rings... and each section of the item would effect the weapon or item in a different way. If your pommel isn't very good quality but your blade is amazing you would have a lower attack bonus and a higher damage bonus. Maybe the band or a ring would effect duration (connection with the caster) and the gem could effect strength (connection with the magic). Just some examples.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the "Old Vets" will only be truly "scary" when they're in their "good" gear, and even then a handful of "Heroic Adventurers" will give them a real challenge.
Sounds good, doesn't it?
"I don't want to fight them."
"Why not?! You've been killing bandits out here for two years! You're a renowned bandit hunter. You're not afraid of a little group of eight bandits, are you?"
"Uh. Yes?"
"What!? Why?"
"Jaun... they all have swords. There's eight of them. That's eight chances to stab me every three seconds or so. Against my... what... three chances to stab them? I can only duck and roll so fast. They don't look like -farmers-. They look like -bandits-. If they looked like -farmers- we wouldn't be talking about beating up -bandits-. I'll stay here and keep an eye on them, you go back and grab some help... THEN we'll route them."
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Goblin Squad Member
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My "perfect" system would be a combination of SWG and SoR. Items would be built out of components which in turn are built of other components and/or refined materials. Refined materials are produced from various classes of raw materials at various "refining stations", higher quality materials requiring higher quality refining stations (with the simplest being running water and/or open flame of any type).
The stats of refined materials are a combination of the states of the raw material and the quality of the processing. The stats of any given component are a sum (positive and negative) of the composite refined materials/components. The stats for a crafted item are the sum (positive and negative) of the components.
Then insure each component requires enough material to make mixing and matching materials meaningful.
Finally, insure there are many different materials within each class, each with positive and negative stats. Examples of classes would be wood, metal, and stone.
Example, non-fantasy-woods: Cedar, Fir, Pine, Redwood, Ash, Birch, Cherry, Mahogany, Maple, Oak, Poplar, Teak, and Walnut; each with different stats (Strength, Weight, Elasticity, Magic load, Keenness, Durability, etc); each with different harvesting (spawn rate and harvesting "level") and refinement requirements (with better refinement giving slightly better stat results).
Components not only have the stats above, but also use those stats to produce additional stats relevant to the item it might be crafted of such as: Damage Bonus, To Hit Bonus, Parry Bonus, Dodge Bonus, etc (all of which might be negative or positive based upon the stats of the combined materials).
________
Item ID is composed of component 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Component 1 is composed of component 5 and 10 refined materials (x, y, and/or z).
Component 2 is composed of 12 refined materials (x and/or z) and 6 refined materials (y and/or w).
Etc...mixing and matching of materials produces identically appearing items with completely different stats for completely different builds.
________
It would allow for longswords which are heavy but do more damage, longswords which are light but give a great parry bonus. Crafters might spend their entire career trying maximize specific combinations of stats for use by specific builds of characters. For instance, I might build a mobility warrior with speed and agility my focuses. I would want a completely different build of weapon than say a more traditional built fighter who would want to maximize damage and have the strength to negate any added weight.
All of this is important for customizing ones character especially in light of the fact that stats will not really effect ones character like PnPPF. Instead, the only way to distinguish these two types of characters are their gear choices and the "equipped" skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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GREAT post, KitNyx. Faved.
This is exactly what we're talking about.
And if you can buy/build/manage an 'apprentice' NPC who can follow your instructions and use your own private materials and equipment to follow your commands and carry out the building while you're not there, creating off of a schematic you have designed, so much the better.
Example:
I am creating a set of 22 longswords for the new guardsman contingent of Elysium City. I craft one longsword, focusing on defense and damage, knowing that the NPC guardsmen are going to be -fine- with however much the sword weighs. I pick several heavy alloys and woods from my stock, and assemble the sword. Once it's completed and I'm satisfied with the stats as generated, I go to my NPC 'assistant', who I paid for/unlocked, and enter his dialogue UI. I choose 'make more of these' and give him the sword. He then tells me he needs 22 fir, (which he will make into handles), 220 dolozian enhanced iron (which will make all the metal components of the weapons), and 44 units of pig-leather, to make handle-wraps. I go to my hopper, fill up my encumbrance plus a bit, schlep the eight feet over to him, give him a dirty look for not going over and grabbing the materials himself from the hopper TEN FEET AWAY from him, and then give him the materials. In 22 minutes, my order will be ready.
I then kick back with a mimosa and wait for one of my guildies to come in begging for a new helmet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There have been indications that gear will scale up as slowly as characters. If a level 1 is to be able to score on a level 5 then not only must the player characters ramp up in power on a very shallow curve, but combat effectiveness altogether, and that suggests the game may not be terribly gear-centric at all.
Seems to me the main factors that prevent low level characters in PnP Pathfinder having very much effect on higher levels is not gear. Its a combination of DR, high hit points and the massive damage output at higher levels that can kill a low level character in a single hit.
Back on topic ... I love the idea of player created "recipes" where playing with the components and spells can produce interesting results. The standard thing of "finding" recipes in a quest is actually pretty boring.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Awesome, for me the crafting game would be finding the best recipes; harvesting and commerce are completely different areas to delve into and specialize in...Hopefully each as complex as combat and crafting.
Of course, with everything balanced, best damage is also heaviest, best keen is also the least durable, cheapest is lowest general stats, etc...the "best" recipes are and should be a subjective judgement.
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I know it was just an example but since the thread is talking about the about crafting done right...
The following made me cringe:
... cut the bloodgroove, etch the blade, and inscribe the crossguard? ...Only in modern industrial times would a fuller (blood groove is a rather inaccurate and misleading term) be cut into a blade. If it were to have one in a smith crafted blade it would be forged at the time the rest of the blade was. As for etching or inscribing those are purely decorative functions as oppose to say polishing which can help keep the blade cleaner and less susceptible to rust.
Not to mention any etching or inscription would be ruined the first time you sharpened the blade, much less after subsequent uses and maintenance.
A plain sharp piece of iron is FAR better than the Frostmourne in terms of being a tool for killing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know it was just an example but since the thread is talking about the about crafting done right...
The following made me cringe:
... cut the bloodgroove, etch the blade, and inscribe the crossguard? ...Only in modern industrial times would a fuller (blood groove is a rather inaccurate and misleading term) be cut into a blade. If it were to have one in a smith crafted blade it would be forged at the time the rest of the blade was. As for etching or inscribing those are purely decorative functions as oppose to say polishing which can help keep the blade cleaner and less susceptible to rust.Not to mention any etching or inscription would be ruined the first time you sharpened the blade, much less after subsequent uses and maintenance.
A plain sharp piece of iron is FAR better than the Frostmourne in terms of being a tool for killing.
Demonic Runes may have a useful intimidating effect though :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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And while it would be fun to leave it at that, I think Blaeringr is actually correct, but that he's meaning "newbs" and "veterans" as those at the bottom and top, respectively, of the "normal power curve" that Ryan mentions for "Heroic Adventurers".Very helpful, Nihimon, thanks! Much more constructive than the 'pooh-poohing' I was feeling from Blae.
Someone questioned you, you poor dear!
I never opposed a regarding crafting system, but merely questioned the epic range of disparity you were describing in the op.
And your response, to hyperbolize everything about what I said is a far and pathetic cry from the constructive approach you ask for.
And for the record, thank you Nihimon, your post was very helpful.
I'd spend more time in this thread addressing the mini game issue and how it creates loopholes for anyone capable of simple scripting to perfect the mini games with a single keystroke, but I can see Purple's already distraught enough by a single person not agreeing with everything he says, so I'll save any more of my honest scrutiny for someone who's ego can handle it.
I'd spend more time in this thread addressing the mini game issue and how it creates loopholes for anyone capable of simple scripting to perfect the mini games with a single keystroke, but I can see Purple's already distraught enough by a single person not agreeing with everything he says, so I'll save any more of my honest scrutiny for someone who's ego can handle it.
Is there a way to create an in depth crafting system, with mini-game type stages, perhaps similar to Vanguard that wouldn't allow scripters to game the system?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is there a way to create an in depth crafting system, with mini-game type stages, perhaps similar to Vanguard that wouldn't allow scripters to game the system?
The mini-game in itself is an issue in a sandbox. It smacks of themepark.
Far better to have a crafting system where the effects of mixing components is based on basic principles with a few random "interesting" side effects and the attraction of the crafting is finding the "magic" combinations that work well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't have a problem with a mini-game idea if its done right and doesn't pull me out of the immersion of the game. I don't want to play a tetris-style game, or a plant's vs zombies game, or a disgruntled birds game in my MMORPG.
Yes, that's the danger of the mini-game approach. At some point you have to wonder, am I enjoying this crafting, or do I really just want to go play Bejeweled instead? Or am I so sick of a particular mini-game that I want to take a break from crafting?
If a mini-game is used (which I think is the plan), there should be some correspondence not merely between your abstract performance in the mini-game and your success at crafting, but the game itself should relate to the crafting. If, say, bonus frost damage is associated with a particular ingredient, then to craft something with that ingredient, part of the mini-game should be incorporating whatever mini-game component is related to that ingredient into the overall representation of the item. This implies that the crafter should have a good deal of control of both the mini-game's inputs and desired victory conditions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is there a way to create an in depth crafting system, with mini-game type stages, perhaps similar to Vanguard that wouldn't allow scripters to game the system?
The mini-game in itself is an issue in a sandbox. It smacks of themepark.
Far better to have a crafting system where the effects of mixing components is based on basic principles with a few random "interesting" side effects and the attraction of the crafting is finding the "magic" combinations that work well.
Exactly, don't bother trying to make crafting appeal to those who do not enjoy crafting...just leave crafting to the crafters. It is after all the inevitable conclusion of a system that makes one choose between working different types of skills that only those who want to craft will train crafting skills...
...those who want to fight will train fighting skills......those who want to trade will train mercantile skills...
...those who want to harvest will train harvesting skills...
I don't have a problem with a mini-game idea if its done right and doesn't pull me out of the immersion of the game. I don't want to play a tetris-style game, or a plant's vs zombies game, or a disgruntled birds game in my MMORPG.Yes, that's the danger of the mini-game approach. At some point you have to wonder, am I enjoying this crafting, or do I really just want to go play Bejeweled instead? Or am I so sick of a particular mini-game that I want to take a break from crafting?
If a mini-game is used (which I think is the plan), there should be some correspondence not merely between your abstract performance in the mini-game and your success at crafting, but the game itself should relate to the crafting. If, say, bonus frost damage is associated with a particular ingredient, then to craft something with that ingredient, part of the mini-game should be incorporating whatever mini-game component is related to that ingredient into the overall representation of the item. This implies that the crafter should have a good deal of control of both the mini-game's inputs and desired victory conditions.
Have you played Vanguard? The crafting stages, I guess they could be called mini games, applied to what you were doing. I guess they were a graphical representation of the stage you were at in crafting the item, more so then a mini game that was just busywork while your item was being made. I'm wondering what
Ryan has in mind, but we won't know that for a while yet. So I was trying to get people's opinion on if a Vanguard type system would appeal to them or not?Actually I was fine with how SWG did their crafting process. I loved all of the different resources and how you could mix and match them to get different results
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Goblin Squad Member
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The mini-game in itself is an issue in a sandbox. It smacks of themepark.Far better to have a crafting system where the effects of mixing components is based on basic principles with a few random "interesting" side effects and the attraction of the crafting is finding the "magic" combinations that work well.
If the only obstacle to good crafting is a matter of game knowledge, then anyone who is able to read a wiki can become a good crafter, and thus good crafting becomes a fungible commodity.
Have you played Vanguard?
No, I haven't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the only obstacle to good crafting is a matter of game knowledge, then anyone who is able to read a wiki can become a good crafter, and thus good crafting becomes a fungible commodity.
This might be true, but if you spend 2 years finding a perfect dodge bonus recipe for item x, and selling that item is your source of income, why would you share the recipe?
Of course, I agree many of the basic recipes and probably some more advanced recipes will be available on the internet, but many also will not be.
It does point out that there should be skills which allow you to do some things...probably more complex recipe templates and skills to allow working with higher grade materials. Or, like SoR does, it allows grades of crafts, Low Quality, Medium Quality, and High Quality. Each makes the same item (although the final product is progressively glossy), but each upgrade require more materials in the crafting (logic being you use only the "best" parts of each item). Since the stats for an item are essentially the sum of the stats of all the component pieces, requiring more pieces increases both the potential of any item and the fine control one has over the final stats. This could translate into PfO as a progressive series of merit badges/skills for any one craftable item.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is there a way to create an in depth crafting system, with mini-game type stages, perhaps similar to Vanguard that wouldn't allow scripters to game the system?
I'd spend more time in this thread addressing the mini game issue and how it creates loopholes for anyone capable of simple scripting to perfect the mini games with a single keystroke, but I can see Purple's already distraught enough by a single person not agreeing with everything he says, so I'll save any more of my honest scrutiny for someone who's ego can handle it.
As long as there are pixels on the screen that form distinct patterns that a player can analyze and sort for all the different puzzle possibilities, a script can be written with expressions to narrow down what the puzzle is and then solve it. Quickly. As long as there are visual patterns, scripts can sort those patterns and emulate mouse and keyboard clicks. And it can be done without needing to hack the client.
A player would begin such a script by:
-first seeing and screenshotting all variations of said puzzle.
-write a simple click here, then there, then there script for each variation
-then analyzing the first segment of each variation, said hypothetical player would find a pattern of pixel location/colors unique to that variation
-and lastly write a script that checks the colors on their screen and then links the match to the appropriate script variation to quickly solve said puzzle
All that without touching the code of the game client or giving any indication to the server of hacking or cheating.
I'm not even a programmer, but such a script is so simple even I could write it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What would be nice is if there were no set recipes.
For example adding more of component X makes the sword harder but reduces hitpoints and changes the optimal quenching temperature and all these things vary dynamically with regard to % of X. Optimal quenching temperature has follow-on effects effecting certain types of magical enhancement. etc
Is there a way to create an in depth crafting system, with mini-game type stages, perhaps similar to Vanguard that wouldn't allow scripters to game the system?
I'd spend more time in this thread addressing the mini game issue and how it creates loopholes for anyone capable of simple scripting to perfect the mini games with a single keystroke, but I can see Purple's already distraught enough by a single person not agreeing with everything he says, so I'll save any more of my honest scrutiny for someone who's ego can handle it.
As long as there are pixels on the screen that form distinct patterns that a player can analyze and sort for all the different puzzle possibilities, a script can be written with expressions to narrow down what the puzzle is and then solve it. Quickly. As long as there are visual patterns, scripts can sort those patterns and emulate mouse and keyboard clicks. And it can be done without needing to hack the client.
A player would begin such a script by:
-first seeing and screenshotting all variations of said puzzle.
-write a simple click here, then there, then there script for each variation
-then analyzing the first segment of each variation, said hypothetical player would find a pattern of pixel location/colors unique to that variation
-and lastly write a script that checks the colors on their screen and then links the match to the appropriate script variation to quickly solve said puzzleAll that without touching the code of the game client or giving any kindication to the server of hacking or cheating.
I'm not even a programmer, but such a script is so simple even I could write it.
A long time ago there was a game that actually encouraged players to script or bot. That was when games charged by the hour to play them so you bet they wanted people to bit allll day long. So I'm familiar with scripts. I guess the only thing we can do is wait and see what the Devs come up with.
I'm sort of uneasy about the NPC production line means of crafting, I wish they would use that for general items but allow players to individually craft high level unique type items. He'll I wish they would adopt the SWG resource system and integrate that into item creation. At least the Devs are paying attention to the players. A year ago I would have said such a thing was impossible!
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the only obstacle to good crafting is a matter of game knowledge, then anyone who is able to read a wiki can become a good crafter, and thus good crafting becomes a fungible commodity.
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Sorry but I'm not quite following your usage. To me 'fungible' means a commodity that is enough of an equivalent of something else that it can be used interchangeably in trade, as when you barter a pound of wheat for a cup of butter.
I'm not sure what you intend to mean.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think my idea of an enjoyable crafting system would be part experimentation, part modular, and part bonus from exceptional materials, additives, and the like(some crafted, some acquired).
That sounds like a good crafting experience, yes.
I'd like to be in a moddable mini-game, with an option to vary certain elements(i.e. using starmetal in place of mithril, or displacer beast hide instead of standard leather) and be able to experiment that way. Add in the ability to get a bonus on your crafting check for using, say, white dragon blood to quench the blade, or elemental fire while tempering, or an alchemical flux during smelting.
I'm not getting the 'mini-game' of this example. Where is the 'game' of it?
Maybe I just have a different concept of what a mini-game is. What I think of as a minigame isn't something I would want in the crafting element of PFO at all.
For me a minigame would be like confronting a tetris-like game where the more lines of blocks you eliminate before failing decided how good your product turns out. Something that doesn't at all simulate one or more of the skills that would be involved in, say, using a handplane to shape a length of oak into a longbow.
In Skyrim some might call the method of lockpicking a 'minigame' but I don't see that as a minigame, I see it as a representation of lockpicking.
If you have played Skyrim, do you also consider lockpicking a minigame? If so I'm fine with your desire to have crafting filled with similar minigames which affect the outcome quality of the product.
But if your idea of minigame is a tetris-like irrelevance, then I'd rather we kept that out of PFO crafting, personally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the only obstacle to good crafting is a matter of game knowledge, then anyone who is able to read a wiki can become a good crafter, and thus good crafting becomes a fungible commodity.
...Sorry but I'm not quite following your usage. To me 'fungible' means a commodity that is enough of an equivalent of something else that it can be used interchangeably in trade, as when you barter a pound of wheat for a cup of butter.
I'm not sure what you intend to mean.
I think Tuoweit is trying to say that crafters become interchangable, with no real differentiation between crafters of comparable skill training time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems there are a number of us who go back to SW:G's crafting system as a reference for a great system. If GW can integrate that systems in a single world with varying ingredient qualities spread throughout, I would enjoy crafting ( and harvesting ) once again :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Someone questioned you, you poor dear!
As charming as ever :)
Is there a way to create [a]... system... that wouldn't allow scripters to game the system?
It is not possible to create any computer-based system that can run on your personal computer that can't be botted/scripted.
It's theoretically possible if the company that creates the system also has absolute control over the client system, but as a practical matter, it's impossible to have absolute control over a system that another human being is using.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, the lock-picking in Skyrim is -absolutely- a kind of mini-game. It is a skill-based challenge on pattern recognition and elimination of outlying paths to find the single path. It is a 'hot and cold' minigame. It just happens to also be extremely simplistic.
The ancient, ancient game 'Hillsfar' also had a mini-game for lock-picking, one that involved specific shapes of picks and pushing down tumblers. That was a much more complex mini-game layed over the top of the 'lock picking' skin, to achieve the same result.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think my idea of an enjoyable crafting system would be part experimentation, part modular, and part bonus from exceptional materials, additives, and the like(some crafted, some acquired).
That sounds like a good crafting experience, yes.
I'd like to be in a moddable mini-game, with an option to vary certain elements(i.e. using starmetal in place of mithril, or displacer beast hide instead of standard leather) and be able to experiment that way. Add in the ability to get a bonus on your crafting check for using, say, white dragon blood to quench the blade, or elemental fire while tempering, or an alchemical flux during smelting.
I'm not getting the 'mini-game' of this example. Where is the 'game' of it?
Maybe I just have a different concept of what a mini-game is. What I think of as a minigame isn't something I would want in the crafting element of PFO at all.
I think I should have said 'Interface' instead of mini-game. But perhaps with some skill elements involved.