Now, the main issue with Multi-Classing and Prestige Classing is that you will be losing out on some really cool features (assuming you don't reach maximum character level, and even then you're going to lose out on features on the 'net level' you would most likely achieve, in terms of PFS gameplay) to receive something that may not be so great.
One 'multi-class' (A level dip is probably more appropriate) I would find helpful is taking 1 level Fighter (or even Paladin), and the rest Cleric (of whatever deity); gaining access to all Martial weapons, all Armors, (Tower Shields if Fighter), extra Saves, (plus that Bonus Feat) and D10 hit dice. The only major flaw with this is that you more-or-less delay your spell allotment and spell level access, as well as your channel energy feature. You don't really lose out on anything important, so this 'multi-class' is really helpful in the long run (or if you don't really need the Fighter bonuses, you could do without it for that extra high-end spell or 2 per day).
However, some of the other (and for my case, more proper) forms of multi-classing would require (not only more investment and diversity of levels, but also) more 'sacrifice' of features that may be more helpful than selecting the levels of the other class(es). With my previous example, I may go ahead and pick a couple more levels of Fighter, but that extra D6 of Channel Energy, or the ability to cast 9th Level Spells would no longer be available, and it would probably be much more helpful than that silly Bravery or that unimportant Armor Training.
Now, while this is how I personally feel about multi-classing and using Prestige Classes, I am sure there are builds that function with the usage of Muliple Class levels, and/or Prestige Classes, but I am of the person to keep things short and simple, and unless the purpose for dabbling into this and that is necessary, that it isn't really worth my time to do so. (Ironic, considering what I opened with, though I made this thread more as trying to view a change of playstyle flavor.)
As the title question; is Multi-Classing or Prestige Classing really worthwhile (or even all that different in terms of power) over the typical "All levels in one class = Win" gimmick that I am always seeming to play with all my characters that I have ever made?
Discuss.
It seems like some multiclasses and PrCs are better than others. Casters generally get shafted by multiclassing, especially non-full caster classes it seems, but many straight Martial classes or "Casters in Name Only" (Rangers and Paladins) can benefit from a timely multiclass or Prestige, even long term instead of dipping for some.
Some PrCs like the Champion of Irori, Brother of the Seal, Horizon Walker, and Master Chymist both add significant benefits that may or may not outweigh the cost of entry, and as a consequence are some of my favorite PrCs to glance at and never use.
Not multiclassing is a gimmick now?
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Q: Is multiclassing/prestige classing really worthwhile?
A #1: Not always.
A #2: Sometimes.
I think there are options for melee characters. A one level dip in barbarian seems kind of nice for many hand to hand fighters. Also I have seen several prestige classes that look interesting. In addition to the ones mentioned, the Hellknight Commander and Living Monolith seem kind of cool.
For casters it is hard to move out. I have read and reread for hours and the closest I have came is Bloatmage, and I think I have ultimately decided against that as well.
Note: I make the melee characters for others to play while I play the casters myself, perhaps the melee options aren't as good either but since I am more watching and speculating it seems ok.
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I've had an idea for a variant rule regarding Prestige classes; why not use something like Mythic Tiers, but toned down a bit? Someone wants to be an assassin? Earn enough points/trials to start gaining tiers as a Assassin, and never drop out of the class you've been progressing in. It'd satisfy that itch and cancel out some of the mechanical losses you take with some classes.
As for Multiclassing itself, I think that inherently weakens you as a character- most Pathfinder classes reward solo classing, and their class features focus on that. Splashing one for the other sort of harms you no matter what you do.
Only some classes are worth dipping into, and only for certain types of characters. Taking some Monk for the front-loaded bonus feats is pretty good--same with Fighter or Ranger. Paladin and Oracle are good dips for Charisma heavy characters. Splitting classes evenly is generally a disaster regardless, though.
Spellcasters are hit hard by multi-classing, but some dips are optimal (Oracle of Heavens for Awesome Display or some Crossblooded combos for blasters or people that want to use Enchantments on other targets, etc.).
Prestige Classes, however, are mostly garbage, except Eldritch Knight and I've heard some powerful things about Horizon Walker.
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I agree with the caster/martial comments, but to be more specific, I think:
- It's almost always bad to multiclass Alchemist, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, and Wizard.
- It's OK to multiclass Cavalier, Paladin, or Ranger, provided you don't lose Animal Companion levels.
- It sometimes works well to multiclass: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Rogue.
I'm a huge fan of Pathfinder's introduction of archtypes. They're a great way to add variety to character building, without having to multiclass and lose out on level-based class features.
For casters it is hard to move out. I have read and reread for hours and the closest I have came is Bloatmage, and I think I have ultimately decided against that as well.
Loremaster for a wizard is generally a good prestige class--you lose out on a couple bonus feats and some free spells in your spellbook, in exchange for some neat bonuses
An Oracle barely loses anything from entering the Hellknight Signifier class due to Catchesis and the Extra Revelation feat, heck Hellknight Signifier is a great PrC over. A cleric loses channeling dice when, say, a Life Oracle does not.
Monks are great to Multiclass, especially Martial Artist/Barbarian and Champion of Irori.
Gunslingers are a good dip class due to having their main class features stop after level 5. Mysterious Stranger/Paladin is a great combo, especially once you can afford a Reliable gun and get plenty of TWF feats to maximize smite.
There's a feat that lets animal companions scale with character level, which is nice and required for Mammoth Lord.
Magaambyan Arcanist is freaking amazing. Wizards in general lose little(other than immortality at level 20) from prestiging into this PrC.
Witch only has one Prestige Option, and it's a good option if not the best option for a blaster Witch with Dazing Spell.
I've only done one multi-class/prestige character: an eldritch knight from 1st level. Even though it wasn't optimal (and sometimes painful because, y'know, losing caster levels), I ended up leveling him as ftr3/wiz5/ek1. I mean, if power was my goal, I would've made a single-class wizard and never looked back. Mixing classes and finding a balance ended up being a great roleplaying experience for me. The character had to prove himself to gain entrance into the order, follow their code of conduct, etc. Not that this couldn't have been done as a magus or some other class combo, but it was a very satisfying moment when I got to add Eldritch Knight to my character sheet.
It all depends on your definition of "worthwhile."
In Pathfinder, unlike 3.5, multiclassing or taking levels in a prestige class is not always the mechanically superior choice. Staying in a single base class is perfectly viable in most circumstances, especially with archetypes to tweak the abilities and focus of a base class. With archetypes, there is less need for prestige classes, which also reduces the possible "combos" to exploit. However, multiclassing and taking levels in a prestige class can also be viable for certain concepts or for certain abilities. For example, a myrmidarch magus with three levels of arcane archer gives up only one level of spell progression and gains some unique abilities (Imbue Spell lets him "cast" area effect spells on arrows as well as ranged touch spells and his arrows are always considered +1 flaming, +1 frost, or +1 shock without needing to spend points from his arcane pool).
Not multiclassing is a gimmick now?
LOL
PF made it worthwhile to stick with a core class all the way, something most people didn't do in 3.x very often. All those prestige classes in the splat books and Dragon magazine were pretty cool ways to customize your character, even if some were better than others.
There are still plenty of PrCs that can be worth it. For me, it depends on my concept in relation to the adventure, and what I think is good for the party as a whole.
After starting a wizard in Skull and Shackles, I got tired of sucking at all the shipboard stuff, and took a level of rogue for some skill bumps. The GM allowed a 3rd party feat to let him enter arcane trickster with just one level of rogue, so, being the only wizard-type in the party, he'll still be able to have enough caster levels to support the party and also survive better himself.
For that game, it should work out OK. That guy's got a lot of skills, now!
Most people level dip for the flavor these days, not because it's inherently better, like it often was in 3.x. Just my opinion/experience.
depends on the build.
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Prestige classes are for people awesome enough to handle them. Any mook can 1-20 single-classed.
I agree with the caster/martial comments, but to be more specific, I think:
- It's almost always bad to multiclass Alchemist, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, and Wizard.
- It's OK to multiclass Cavalier, Paladin, or Ranger, provided you don't lose Animal Companion levels.
- It sometimes works well to multiclass: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Rogue.
I'm a huge fan of Pathfinder's introduction of archtypes. They're a great way to add variety to character building, without having to multiclass and lose out on level-based class features.
Before they finally boosted the Monk by boosting Amulet of Mighty Fists (pricewise), Monk b(master Style)/Magus (black Blade) was a really good option.
You gained a slashing (boar style, etc give slashing) unarmed strike that was magical, unremoveable (rare dismemberment cases), etc.
You regained flurry with Spell Combat/strike (chill touch or Frostbite are best), remember you can deliver touch spells with a unarmed strike.
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Master of Many styles monk makes an awesome dip. With the first two levels alone, you get two style feats without any prereq other than the other style feats in the chain. You can also use two styles at once. Some of the most intensively defensive builds end up using MoMS with duelist to take advantage of crane style. Technically, a human monk could have all three crane style feats by level 2 using this archetype (assuming they get dodge and crane style at level 1). That means you can tell the GM to eat one melee attack a round and then slap his monster for daring to mess with you. It also means that it is near impossible for low level monsters to even touch you 1 on 1.
The fact that you give up Flurry of blows is a blessing in disguise. You do not need to feel like you 'have to' equip yourself like a monk. You only really gain the AC bonuses going without armor, so that is uselss, and you do not need to use weapons with the monk quality since you would not be flurrying in the first place. Feel free to equip that full plate and +5 flaming longsword. It does provide nice defense if you are caught with your metal pants down though.
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There are some prestige classes like the Cyphermage, that are worth taking a look at as a caster. In the case of a wizard, you have to take one mid-quality feat (Cypher Magic), Arcana 5 (which you were gonna do anyway), History and Linguistics 5 (not a big sacrifice). In return you get Perception, UMD, Disable Device and Survival as class skills, a few more skill points, a slight boost to scroll use. It doesn't cost you any spellcasting progression, although it does somewhat complicate the rhythm of your metamagic feats/arcane discoveries.
All in all, I think the Cyphermage is a good example of a prestige class that works well for flavor (Rise of the Runelords in my case), offers some nice things (mostly Perception and UMD as class skills) at an acceptable price (skills I was going to take anyway and a feat that'll probably be useful now and then). And since it doesn't mess up your spellcasting, it's not painful to take.
It's funny. There's a sort of invisible dividing line between some classes that work fine multiclassing with each other, and some classes that only multiclass well with prestige classes that continue their main class features. A fighter that dips into Barbarian, Monk or even Shadowdancer gets some interesting new abilities but his main job (fighting) isn't inconvenienced all that much. A wizard that dips into another spellcasting class has a hard time gaining anything as good as another wizard level worth of spellcasting. (Possible but very tricky.)
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Since we're talking about optimization to me the answer depends on whether you are playing a "one-shot" adventure or starting from level one and playing from there. If you are building for a specific level you can often find excellent multi/prestige class options that don't make you give up too much in return.
For example at 9th level you can make a pretty awesome Monk (Martial Artist) 2/Fighter 2/Barbarian 5. But if you gain a level you're going to be thinking "man, I could have one of those good 10th level Barbarian rage powers right now. And instead of getting greater rage in 5 more levels I'd be getting it next level."
Or if you're building a 10th level cleric: sure, why not take a dip into monk? Get a feat, IUS, and wis modifier to my AC, all I'm giving up is a 4th and 5th level spell. But if you level you're going to be regretting being a level behind on spells.
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The way I tend to build most of my characters leads me to level dip at least one level usually.
For example:
Barbarian 2/Ninja 2/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple X. I get 4 natural attacks per round (5 if I spend a ki point) and I have a fairly impressive strength to go with it. This character is a melee beast that can use wands for range when needed.
Heretic Inquisitor 1/Empyreal Sorcerer X. This guy was built on the premise of lying through any situation and the one level dip gives him a huge boost to bluff. The rest of the time he buffs, debuffs and summons monsters.
Gunslinger 1/Myrmidarch Magus X: Magus with a gun. Yup.
Unarmed Fighter 1/MoMS Monk 2/Kensai Magus 2/Sword lord X: This one is fun, the first 3 levels get me all of the crane style feats, snake style, and wisdom to AC, next 2 levels grant aldori dueling sword proficiency, weapon focus, spell combat, spell strike, and 2 INT to AC if unarmored, and the ability to use a wand of shield. Obviously, this is my boost defenses like crazy build...
Oracle X/Witch 1: This one is my necromancer. High CHA allows him to focus on inflicting nasty curses, then using his witch familiar to touch corpses when he casts animate dead. If I lose the familiar I'm out 500 gold, but that's pretty much it, the witch level is primarily for access to Blood Money. I also picked up evil eye and cackle.
That's probably good enough. My point is that there are times when the benefits for 1 or more levels outweigh the benefits if you're trying to build around a theme or to a specific goal.
I agree with the caster/martial comments, but to be more specific, I think:One level dip into Gunslinger is wonderful...
- It's almost always bad to multiclass Alchemist, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, and Wizard.
- It's OK to multiclass Cavalier, Paladin, or Ranger, provided you don't lose Animal Companion levels.
- It sometimes works well to multiclass: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Rogue.
I'm a huge fan of Pathfinder's introduction of archtypes. They're a great way to add variety to character building, without having to multiclass and lose out on level-based class features.
I agree that many of those classes are useful to dip into. I was listing the things I wouldn't want to split 50/50 or multiclass out of.
It depends.
(In order of favorite chars)
My ranger doesn't really need to multiclass
My magus doesn't benefit much
My witch loses out
My brute rogue NEEDED to multiclass for better AC... Light armor doesn't work for 14 dex.
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The fact that this question ever needs to be asked makes me sad :(
It's pre-generated adventures and a generation of new DM's with no imagination that requires people to have to think about whether or not a cool archetype/PrC/Multi-class is worth using.
I say, if you think it would be fun to play (insert x here) then play it. If you have the luxury, play until you find a group with a gm who values adaptability and fun over what the pages on an adventure module says.
Is this for PFS or for a home game?
If it's for a home game, talk to your GM about whether he will allow these feats. Particularly the multiclass/favoured feats. They are designed for multiclassing and allow you to "catch up" in levels at the expense of feat slots. It is very expensive for casters but not so bad for non-casters.
Peet
An interesting dip can be Barbarian and Alchemist(Ragechemist and Vivisectionist archetypes).
Rage + the more intense Mutagen can give you a quick (but temporary) +10 to strength. You get to start the game with that d12 hitdie, along with 1d6 sneak attack, a few level 1 Extracts and that +10foot movespeed.
You also get to put feats into Alchemist Discoveries, which might be neat. Maybe you need an extra arm to wield a shield while you swing your great axe.
i like rage prophet personally