Trip is one of the easiest maneuvers for enemies to be immune to--I suggest not focusing so many resources on it.
The intimidate stuff is great, though--consider Intimidating Prowess if you're concerned about making the DCs (which are pretty low).
Okay this is up my alley. I too am playing with a 2-handed build right now and am thinking about concentrating on reach, or tripping, or intimidating/demoralizing, etc.
Why are the Intimidate/Demoralize feats/abilities so good, compared to another build that focuses on CMB stuff or mobility?
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use a Falchion and focus a bit on crits and it will be even more smexy especially if u get the feat that allows u to trip when u crit and the crit feats that allow u to sicken and exhaust the target. Also for Archetype i would strongly advise Lore Warden since it gets a bonus +8 to all CMB and CMD checks.
Another wrought u can take is the Scorpion Whip wrought which is a lot better on tripping and will give u a reach of 15ft, 20ft if using Lunge, while threatening 10ft with the whip instead of none. Also Lung + Whirlwind + whip = 20ft radius aoe attack at full bab. Just a thought XD.
FYI - Cornugon Smash can't be taken until level 6 which kinda pushes everything back a level.
I designed a build somewhat similar to this. It used feint instead of intimidate and vital strike instead of deadly stroke.
warning: there is a flaw in this build- trips do not work against flying creatures or a handful of creatures that don't 'stand' because of their physiology.
if you want to do this, here's what i would do...
switch to Lore Warden- not only do you get a bonus to cmb/cmd, but you get combat expertise as an extra bonus feat.
take 2-3 levels of Maneuver Master (the monk archetype)- 2 levels actually nets you 2 bonus feats instead of one from 2 fighter levels, it improves your saves, you're wearing light armor as a lore warden so you get evasion, and (though its probably not RAI) by RAW there's nothing stopping you from using Flurry of Maneuvers in your light armor... you do lose one point of BAB, but not for your cmb if take a 3rd level.
put a little more focus on your Dex- it'll help make up for wearing light armor, one of your extra feats will be combat reflexes so it'll add to AoOs, and the other extra feat should be Fury's Fall (lets you add Str and Dex to trip cmb).
switch from greatsword to guisarme- it is a statistically worse weapon in many ways but will allow you to make a lot of AoOs, including against anyone trying to close with you (which you can use for tripping people), especially if you can get enlarged... normally it causes issues when people get next to you but as a monk you can use head/legs/whatever to attack adjacent enemies
If anything the flaw in the build are enemies immune to fear, not those immune to trip, tripping is merely a side benefit. Way more feats are being invested into intimidate.
It looks great to me, but needs a couple small adjustments to be legal. There's a lot of good advice in this thread about the potential weaknesses of the build (neither tripping not intimidation will work on all enemies) but unless you're trying to win a DPR race with another optimized PC, this character will perform admirably.
I assume you'll prioritize your attributes to have a high STR, moderately high CON, 13-14 INT, positive bonuses for DEX and WIS if you can afford it, and low CHA scores. Choose Heavy Blades as your first Weapon Training, and probably Bows as your second. Wear heavy armor, carry a composite longbow, stick a couple healing potions and alchemist fires in your backpack, and don't forget your towel.
Here's some commentary added to your plan:
Level 1: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Furious Focus
Great! Your character is now done. If you never get another feat, you’ll still be able to at least carry your weight in a fight. Since Power Attack only imposes a -1 penalty at levels 1-4, I’d suggest delaying Furious Focus until 3rd level. Take Combat Expertise at 1st, Improved Trip at 2nd, and get your trick going one level sooner.
Level 2: Combat Expertise
Level 3: Improved Trip
Now you have a trick!
Level 4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
More Damage!
Level 5: Cornugon Smash
You can’t take Cornugon Smash until you have 6 ranks in intimidate, so you’ll have to push this back at least one level. You may want Intimidating Prowess now, so that your intimidation rolls will be high.
Level 6: Felling Smash
Level 7: Greater Trip
Now you’re a tripping monster! Your “trip” trick is fully formed, and shouldn’t take up any more resources after this point.
Level 8: Weapon Focus, Greater
You may prefer Improved Critical at this juncture. When you get to 8th level, run a DPR calculation and figure out which helps you more. Or, perhaps, this is where you take Dazzling Curnugon Smash and start working on the intimidation trick. On the other hand, you have invested very little into intimidation so far, and could make a last minute change to that plan, going with whatever feels right for the campaign.*
Level 9: Dazzling Display
Level 10: Shatter Defenses
Level 11: Deadly Stroke
Level 12: Weapon Specialization: Greater
Level 13: Improved Critical
Level 14: Dreadful Carnage
*Perhaps you want to focus on intimidation, but other options at this point include: Dirty Trick, critical feats, Leadership (to get a cool mount) and mounted feats, extreme durability with feats like Toughness or Iron Will and their improved versions, etc.
i thought of the fear as the side benefit... when you trip someone you get an AoO and when they move or stand you get another, so with felling smash (or a free trip besides a full attack from Flurry of Maneuvers) thats already a lot of damage- plus your enemies have a lot of trouble getting to you to attack, especially if you're enlarged (granting 20' reach)- that, to me is the real strength of the build.
regarding the OP's intention...
The basis for this build is to charge in with Power Attack and Furious Focus, activating Cornugon Smash and Felling Smash, which activates Greater Trip Aoo, which will use deadly stroke for double damage against a prone, flat footed enemy and con bleed... This would be executable on full attacks as well.
there is a significant issue with this... Deadly Stroke requires a standard action to use- that means it cannot be used on an AoO, nor as part of a full attack. that means the execution would look like this: round 1- move (it's debatable whether you can use Felling Smash on an actual charge, i'd allow it but ask your GM), attack with PA/FF/CS/FS, take AoO; on their turn- take AoO when they try to move or stand up; round 2- forgo full attack or new felling smash to make Deadly Stroke... frankly i don't think that's worthwhile, but doubling your damage may be handy in rounds you can only get a standard action and are confident you won't be able to trip?
I have decided that maybe I should forsake greater trip due to the fact that I'll get an Aoo if they get up anyways, and if they decide to stay down, even better. Improved crit, while good, is rather redundant at that point where you should already have a keen weapon.'
The biggest problem right now is that most higher CR enemies are very difficult if not impossible to trip. Enough that it makes me consider giving up the whole trip feats. There anything I could use to make it easier to hit the enemy along with flatfoot that's more reliable than trip?
One thing to note, there is usually an opportunity cost with getting keen - you could have gotten another enchant instead. This is true with the feat as well though, so pick your poison. With fighters who have alot of feats it's typically better to go with the feat, but it depends on how tight your build is.
Being tripped/prone does not make you flat footed. It's actually a very hard condition to acquire outside of a surprise round. Anything that makes you helpless, the shattered defenses feat, the flowing monk's unbalancing counter - these are the only things I can think of but there might be more.
So I have decided to create a human two handed fighter. Here is what I have in mind in the feat progression.
Level 1: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Furious Focus
Level 2: Combat Expertise
Level 3: Improved Trip
Level 4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Level 5: Cornugon Smash
Level 6: Felling Smash
Level 7: Greater Trip
Level 8: Weapon Focus, Greater
Level 9: Dazzling Display
Level 10: Shatter Defenses
Level 11: Deadly Stroke
Level 12: Weapon Specialization: Greater
Level 13: Improved Criticals
Level 14: Dreadful CarnageAnd that's all I can think off right now. The basis for this build is to charge in with Power Attack and Furious Focus, activating Cornugon Smash and Felling Smash, which activates Greater Trip Aoo, which will use deadly stroke for double damage against a prone, flat footed enemy and con bleed.
Of corse, to set all this off I must succeed an intimidate check. I have considered taking Combat Reflexes to stop the enemy from fleeing after I use my Aoo on my own turn, but I'm not sure it would be good taking it this late. Dreadful carnage will pile on top of this to make it even easier to Shatter Defenses. This would be executable on full attacks as well.
So what do you think? Is it viable, or are there any suggestions? How do you suggest I boost intimidate and CMB as much as possible? Are there any feats that should be swapped out?
As far as I can tell, it seems to be pretty solid. 1st Round, you charge with Power Attack; assuming a hit, you then get to intimidate as a free action, so the guy is now afraid (and flat-footed). 2nd Round, you use Deadly Stroke (which triggers Felling Smash), causing Con Bleed (I hope you don't face something immune to Bleed/Ability Damage, or you're screwed for this) and some nasty damage, as well as a trip (assuming you can even affect them with trip in the first place; when facing Huge creatures, probably not). Then you rinse and repeat AOO's for hitting the target until they bleed out from Con loss, or you just outright kill them with HP damage.
As others have suggested, you may want to select Furious Focus at a later level, since chances are your Weapon Focus counteracts the Power Attack penalty until you reach 4th level; most likely as a Bonus Feat.
In addition, Cornugon Smash cannot be selected at 5th level due to the feat requiring 6 ranks (and you cannot have more ranks in a given skill more than your total character level), meaning it will have to be selected at 6th level (and all the other stuff being pushed back one level. This may not be all that bad, since you can probably shuffle in Furious Focus in that spot instead so you can select a different 1st level feat; maybe something on the defensive side, such as Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes, or Improved Initiative, etc.)
Honestly, for the build to truly function in a general scenario, you'd need to have the Trip Size Limitation bend to you; the easiest way to do this is to either have your party spellcaster prepare a spell that greatly enhances your size (Enlarge Person, Giant Form, etc.), or spells that reduce the size of your opponents (Reduce Person, etc.), otherwise having magic items that help accomplish this, to make it viable to trip whatever opponent you face (and basically have them fall into your Rinse and Repeat tactic).
On top of this, feats like Intimidating Prowess, Tripping Strike, and Hammer the Gap would also synergize well with the build.
As far as I can tell, it seems to be pretty solid. 1st Round, you charge with Power Attack; assuming a hit, you then get to intimidate as a free action, so the guy is now afraid (and flat-footed).
Not quite. Only after the second hit is the enemy flat footed as the first hit only makes him shakened and you need to hit after the fact. You couldn't use Deadly Stroke until the 3rd round.
I think the enemy have to be shaken before you use the shatter defense feat.
As far as I can tell, it seems to be pretty solid. 1st Round, you charge with Power Attack; assuming a hit, you then get to intimidate as a free action, so the guy is now afraid (and flat-footed).
So it seems. It would appear I would have to retract the previous statement, since I misread the RAW of some feats (and I had a feeling I did, too). For that to be effective, it would have to require the player have access to the Pounce feature, which I am almost positive a Fighter PC cannot obtain within RAW. A Mobile Fighter's features (which are pretty solid for allowing full attacks on the run) wouldn't work since they are a separate action from the Charge action.
**Edit** I realize that the option I listed before actually wouldn't work, since Felling Smash cannot be applied on an Attack of Opportunity.
On a positive note, I believe the build provides promise, but is currently poorly fleshed-out, since it would take multiple rounds for the strategy to take effect (and by that point the rest of the party will probably have the other creatures dead, if not have yours killed before you can apply your tactics).
I have decided that maybe I should forsake greater trip due to the fact that I'll get an Aoo if they get up anyways, and if they decide to stay down, even better. Improved crit, while good, is rather redundant at that point where you should already have a keen weapon.
Whether to use a feat or gold to get an increased threat range is an important decision. If you choose a Keen weapon, you're sacrificing a further +1 of weapon enchantment. If you choose the feat Improved Critical, you're sacrificing whatever feat you would have taken instead.
I suggested taking Improved Critical instead of Greater Weapon Focus because GWF gives only a +1 attack, while the gold spend on Keen could instead buy +1 attack AND +1 damage. If, at level 8, you take a feat that's better than +1/+1, then the keen weapon is a better deal.
There anything I could use to make it easier to hit the enemy along with flatfoot that's more reliable than trip?
Easier to hit than a flat footed opponent? You could use Dirty Trick and then you'd be swinging at blind opponents.
You're a fighter with full BAB, weapon focus, weapon training, weapon specialization, and a high STR bonus - the best thing you can do to a flat footed enemy is kill them with damage!
Don't forget that fighter's have the unique ability to retrain feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, & 20. You could potentially take Improved Trip as a bonus feat at 1st level (while it still rocks), Greater Trip as a bonus feat at 6th, then retrain Greater Trip at 12th (when it's lost some of it's utility) to be part of your intimidation plan.
Can Felling Smash and Cornugon smash occur on the same power attack hit then?
Yes. And both could be combined with Vital Strike or Deadly Stroke (Vital Strike and Deadly Stroke could not be combined with each other however).
As to not being availible on a charge, RAW probably not, RAI - maybe. Ask your DM. Even if it's not availble then simply don't charge, just move and attack.
@ Hawktitan: The issue with not charging is then Cornugon Smash does not activate. It only works with the Charge option.
@ Warhawx: Remember that Toughness cannot be selected as a Fighter Bonus feat, meaning you cannot select it at 2nd level (and that selecting it as a regular feat means you cannot retrain it). I would honestly either take it as a regular feat and keep it (the extra HP can be somewhat helpful), or don't bother with it altogether.
@ Hawktitan: The issue with not charging is then Cornugon Smash does not activate. It only works with the Charge option.
Here is the wording found at d20pfsrd
Cornugon Smash (Combat)
Your terrible attacks strike fear into your enemies.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Intimidate 6 ranks.
Benefit: When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Seems to work just fine outside of a charge.
@ Hawktitan: The issue with not charging is then Cornugon Smash does not activate. It only works with the Charge option.
Here is the wording found at d20pfsrd
Seems to work just fine outside of a charge.Cornugon Smash (Combat)
Your terrible attacks strike fear into your enemies.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Intimidate 6 ranks.
Benefit: When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Odd; I remember one of his feats that he needed for his build to work require that he perform the charge action. Perhaps I was just misreading things (once again).
Here are my suggestions, just listed for brevity. Many have already been said.
Go Lore Warden. Seriously, just do it.
Switch to a reach weapon. Have something to cover adjacent attacks as well, whether it be unarmed strike, (spiked) gauntlet, armor spikes...
Take Heirloom Weapon trait for +2 on trip checks.
Have high strength, but don't min-max it; you also want a respectable Dex. Grab Fury's Fall and Combat Reflexes.
Consider Lunge + Whirlwind Attack if you have the feats for it.
Get Greater Trip as soon as it's available at 6 (seemed obvious to me, but I see progressions with it much later or never). Get Dazing Assault as soon as it's available at 12, and Dreadful Carnage as soon as it's available at 11. Use your Fighter 12 feat swap to gain Pin Down.
Make sure you have means to be enlarged often, either by another PC, potion, etc... Enlarge buffs your tripping and intimidate and doubles your reach.
Don't bother with Shatter Defenses and Dazzling Display. The latter is a worthless feat tax for the former, and the former is only good for sneak attackers and monks with medusa's wrath.
I agree completely with your assessment of Whirwind Attack and it's required feats, though I think Dodge is ok (it's also benefiting CMD), just a below average feat. Mobility, Spring Attack, and Combat Expertise (though you need that one anyway) all completely suck. I didn't know if in the end you'd have the feats to fit it in, but it is definitely a high cost. With enlarge person and Lunge with a reach weapon, though, WWA is hitting a 25 ft reach (or 30, but I don't think that's how Lunge interacts with enlarge person) all around you, and you can 5 ft step between attacks to get even more enemies, so it is covering quite a large radius.
You're not giving up all that just for free Combat Expertise w/ Lore Warden, though. The main draw is the CMB/CMD boost. Each one of those is easily as good as a feat.
I really don't see the fascination with Deadly Stroke. And Tripping critical...how often will the foe still be alive after a crit anyway?
Level 1: Power Attack, Dodge, Weapon Mastery (Fauchard)
Level 2: Combat Expertise
Level 3: Mobility
Level 4: Spring Attack
Level 5: Whirlwind Attack
Level 6: Improved Trip
Level 7: Greater Trip
Level 8: Lunge
Level 9: ???
Level 10: ???
Level 11: Dreadful Carnage
Level 12: Dazing Assault
I prefer your previous builds. In this one, you don't get to start tripping until the level when you start fighting a lot of trip-immune and trip-resistant enemies. Also, by giving up Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, you've given up a chunk of your damage potential.
If you want to switch from "Scary Tripping Fighter" to "Tripping Whirlwind Fighter" you might want to try something like this Lore Warden build:
Level 1: EWP(Fauchard), Improved Trip, Power Attack
Level 2: Dodge, Combat Expertise(from Lore Warden)
Level 3: Weapon Focus (Fauchard), CMB +2(from Lore Warden)
Level 4: Mobility
Level 5: Weapon Specialization (Fauchard)
Level 6: Greater Trip
Level 7: Spring Attack, CMB +4(from Lore Warden)
Level 8: Improved Critical (Fauchard)
Level 9: Tripping Strike
Level 10: Whirlwind Attack
Level 11: Critical Focus, CMB +6(from Lore Warden)
Level 12: Bleeding Critical
Level 13: Staggering Critical
Level 14: Critical Mastery
Level 15: Blinding Critical, CMB +8(from Lore Warden)
Level 16: Greater Weapon Specialization
Level 17: Stunning Critical
This way you have plenty of damage, and the tripping feats all come ASAP, so you start tripping at level 1, and get lots of free trips at level 9. Whirlwind & Spring Attack come later, but there's room to move them earlier if you'd rather delay a different ability (I prioritized tripping). Also, since you have all that juice early, the late-game is a crit build. (At level 15, for example, you can leave an enemy blind, bleeding, and prone with a single crit!)
Other feats to consider: Combat Reflexes
I assume that Cornugon Smash and Shatter Defenses can activate on a single blow
They don't - You will need two attacks to trigger Shatter Defenses. Intimidation only happens after the first attack and you need to do damage after they are intimidated.
Where are you getting Chevalier from? I'm only finding some wierd 3 level class. If it's the same thing then you don't get smite evil equal to your character level, at best it's equal to a level 3 paladin. This also makes more sense as getting smite evil equal to your total HD would be stupid strong.
I think I'm just going to go with scary fighter instead of a scary tripping one
I think that's a wise choice.