Was looking at building a Magus and I am thinking that the Dawnflower Dervish feat might be a good way to maximize the Magus' abilities, since it basically allows you to dump Strength. Get Weapon Finesse at 1st level, then at 3rd level you get DD and all you need to worry about is Dex and Int.
Seems to me the Dawnflower Dervish requirement of not having anything in your off-hand is good for a magus, since he won't have anything in that hand anyway.
What do you guys think?
Peet
For a dex based magus it's a must.
Not that a kensei can get a higher AC than a str based magus - but is a few points behind in spells and damage.
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Was looking at building a Magus and I am thinking that the Dawnflower Dervish feat might be a good way to maximize the Magus' abilities, since it basically allows you to dump Strength. Get Weapon Finesse at 1st level, then at 3rd level you get DD and all you need to worry about is Dex and Int.
Seems to me the Dawnflower Dervish requirement of not having anything in your off-hand is good for a magus, since he won't have anything in that hand anyway.
What do you guys think?
Peet
I think that if it were a good idea, then someone, somewhere would have thought of it already.
hahaha
For a dex based magus it's a must.
Not that a kensei can get a higher AC than a str based magus - but is a few points behind in spells and damage.
Looking at the Kensai... it looks interesting although losing armor and a spell slot seems expensive for the canny defense benefit. You can gain an exotic weapon proficiency for free but then you lose all other martial weapons. The other abilities are nice but they also replace abilities that are pretty good too.
I figure typically most Magi will have an intelligence of around 16. This gives them access to all magus spell levels, and you need your attribute points to buy other stuff like Dex, Con, and Str (not Str of you are playing the Dawnflower Dervish build). That means all these nifty Kensai abilities are probably giving you a +3 to these nifty powers until you get an item which enhances INT. Meanwhile a regular Magus can use a chain shirt which gives him the benefits of this over the haramaki the kensai is wearing, and at 7th level he can upgrade to breastplate, etc.
Do you often see Kensai who also use Dawnflower Dervish? It's annoying that DD can only be used with scimitars, though there's no reason a Kensai couldn't choose that as their weapon.
I think that if it were a good idea, then someone, somewhere would have thought of it already.
Hmmm, I cast detect sarcasm.
Never said nobody else has thought of it. Rather, more interested in hearing from people who have tried it. If you have, perhaps you would share your experience?
Peet
Walters Guide To The Magus discusses the dex build at length and there are some extremely helpful posts in the discussion section afterwards. As a recent convert to the Magus and PF in general I found that guide extremely helpful in terms of optimisation and generally understanding the advantage and disadvantages of dex vs str build, archetypes, appropriate feats and the like.
Yes, there are 1392 posts, but there are some gems in there!
Typical Kensai-build can dump STR and gain lots of Dex/Int (assuming elf) you start with at least 18 in both stats.
Your armor will therefore be way better than a regular Magus as he wont be able to use all his dex (if dex build at all) and armor. So you are - without any doubts better off with the kensai. Th best armor ingame is celestial plate armor. 9 + 5 + 6 = 20.
Kensai ends up with something like 8 + 12 + 9 = 29
I think he may have made a new post just so he DOESN'T have to read 1392 posts...just saying...I know I would :P .
"We learn more by looking for the answer to a question than we do from learning the answer itself"
If you haven’t got the time to read the posts (which I fully understand as it took me nearly 3 days to get through them all!)then read the guide. It covers all the basics and Walter has been very good at including the most relevant points in the guide.
Good reading and good luck.
Suob.
Typical Kensai-build can dump STR and gain lots of Dex/Int (assuming elf) you start with at least 18 in both stats.
Your armor will therefore be way better than a regular Magus as he wont be able to use all his dex (if dex build at all) and armor. So you are - without any doubts better off with the kensai. Th best armor ingame is celestial plate armor. 9 + 5 + 6 = 20.
Kensai ends up with something like 8 + 12 + 9 = 29
Not sure how your math works...
Celestial Plate is +3 plate... but Celestial Plate is not legal for PFS, and this is for a PFS character. I could always get +5 mithral plate, which will be one point better AC than Celestial Plate for a non-kensai magus with Dex 18.
Assuming an 18 to DEX and INT, not counting feats, rings, or amulets, a magus with a +5 mithral agile breastplate will have an AC of 25; with a +5 mithral full plate it becomes 27, though you lose some maneuverability. A Kensai with a +5 haramaki will have an AC of 24. He could get +8 bracers of armor to get to AC 26. In my mind it works out to about the same, though obviously as the stats increase so does the AC. I will probably start with an INT of 16 rather than 18 though so I can put some points into CON as well.
But of course the Kensai is also much more limited in terms of spells. One less spell per day per level and no spell recall is a big drain. Also, the non-kensai magus with a dex build is also pretty decent with a longbow which isn't so important later in the game but is handy at low levels.
Peet
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I think that if it were a good idea, then someone, somewhere would have thought of it already.Was looking at building a Magus and I am thinking that the Dawnflower Dervish feat might be a good way to maximize the Magus' abilities, since it basically allows you to dump Strength. Get Weapon Finesse at 1st level, then at 3rd level you get DD and all you need to worry about is Dex and Int.
Seems to me the Dawnflower Dervish requirement of not having anything in your off-hand is good for a magus, since he won't have anything in that hand anyway.
What do you guys think?
Peet
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. : )
I was making fun of the fact that, of the 1392 posts on that thread, around 1391 of them basically say that if your magus doesn't have Dawnflower Dervish then you're wasting your own and everybody else's time and shouldn't even bother turning up!
Isn't the feat called "Dervish Dance?" I thought Dawnflower Dervish was an archetype. For the Bard, I think.
"Feats: Weapon Finesse (1st), Dervish Dance (3rd), Heighten Spell (5th), Preferred Spell: Shocking grasp (M5), Intensify spell (7th, spelling might be off), Empower Spell (9th), Elemental Sub: Acid (11th), varies (M11)
The last could be: Quicken, improved crit: scimitar, spell penetration, improved familiar, etc.
I suggest that level12 is taken in crossblooded sorcerer (Orc/black dragon), and then return to magi levels. This will give you a nice damage boost at the end of your normal levels of play."
- feats - way to much metamagic IMHO. intensified spell - yes. Empower spell - yes. Then go for combat orintated feats. No use being in melee if you no good at it.
I think lvl 12 is too late for the sorc dip - lvl 8 once you have the medium armor. would be my suggestion. The extra damage counts for more at low level - and you get the benefit for a longer time...
I think the arcane pool is to little - so with so little in the pool i might as well give up spell recall - imp spell recall would be worth it - but thats to late to mean much in most Paizo AP.
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I would not suggeest dumping Strength. Power Attack can still be used with Dervish Dance, and I've played an Inquisitor that used them both often. Then there are things like Encumberance to think about...
For my first magus I set strenght to a 14 both to get power attack and use an Oathbow (+2 str). I never put any more into strenght after that but it is important to have other options when you can't use your primary attack.
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I personally enjoy dipping at level 1 into Dawnflower Dervish for an immediate Dervish Dance feat. This of cource means you gotta worship Sarenae which isnt a biggie since shes pretty fun as a deity. Also Battle Dance is a nice buff for a couple rounds a day plus Knowledge and access to CLW is never a bad thing. In exchange you lose a level of progression in Magus but for what you get its not a bad trade AND you're not gonna hit 5th level spells in PFS...as of yet at least.
GM a bit for PFS, and start your Magus at 3rd level based on the GM credit you can get for GMing their mods. This will take you out of the only rough spots for a magus in PFS play levels.
Well, I can make a more hardy 1st-level MAD Magus and then when leveling to 2nd I can rejigger him. That's when spellstrike comes into effect which I think makes a dex magus feasible with arcane mark.
I think that my normal dex magus build is on Walter's thread, but here's a quick view of it:
STR 07
INT 18 (16+2racial)
WIS 10
DEX 19 (17+2racial, bumps go here)
CON 12 (14-2racial)
CHA 07
Well, honestly it feels like cheese to me to dump two stats down to 7. At 3rd level you are fine but at 2nd level you have a problem. I think I'd probably leave STR at 10 and have INT at 16 instead of 18.
Racial variations: there's one that trades Elven weaponry for +2 concentration checks.. take that.
I notice elf seems to the be the standard race... but I was actually thinking I would take Tiefling. The Tiefling magus archetype (Fiend Flayer) gives you a couple extra things for free.
Traits: Magical Lineage (shocking grasp), Wayang Spellhunter (shocking grasp)
Where do I find "Wayang Spellhunter"? What does it do?
I was thinking Magical Lineage and Loremaster, myself.
Feats: Weapon Finesse (1st), Dervish Dance (3rd), Heighten Spell (5th), Preferred Spell: Shocking grasp (M5), Intensify spell (7th, spelling might be off), Empower Spell (9th), Elemental Sub: Acid (11th), varies (M11)
Preferred spell is neat but you have to take Heighten Spell, which seems like a waste for a magus... a feat tax for taking preferred spell.
I suggest that level12 is taken in crossblooded sorcerer (Orc/black dragon), and then return to magi levels. This will give you a nice damage boost at the end of your normal levels of play....
Can you even take Sorcerer levels with a CHA of 7?
Peet
Follow my logic on this:
If I use TWF and have a 14 STR, my on hand weapon gets +2 bonus to damage and my off hand a +1.
With a 7 str my on hand weapon gets a -2 damage... what about my OFF hand weapon? does it get -1 damage because it's half of the on hand modifier?
Same goes for THF with a 7 str do I get -3 damage modifier on my battle axe because I decided to use TWO hands instead of one?
No.
Neither would I allow an 18 Dex dervish dancer to apply his full Dex to damage if he has a negative modifier on STR.
7 str + 18 Dex = (-2 for Str +4 for Dex) +2 damage modifier in combat.
IF you want to realize your full dex to damage, you need to NOT have a negative modifier in str.
So you need to have a 10 or 11 in Str.
In the case of something that required not strength or effort, like a touch attack delivering an effect, this wouldn't apply because there is no inherent damage from the touch itself, thus there is no damage to modify.
Your Swinging a scimitar, in melee. Dumping STR to min max an already dubious feat IS cheese.
I wouldn't allow it at my table unless it was modified as above.
You need to be at least at a normal, no modifier, str.
Edit: also consider how this will affect things like combat maneuvers, some one, anyone could just grapple you, and easily and your done. A negative STR modifier is not a good idea in so many ways for someone who is even thinking about melee, nevermind something MEANT to do melee.
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Follow my logic on this:
If I use TWF and have a 14 STR, my on hand weapon gets +2 bonus to damage and my off hand a +1.
With a 7 str my on hand weapon gets a -2 damage... what about my OFF hand weapon? does it get -1 damage because it's half of the on hand modifier?
Same goes for THF with a 7 str do I get -3 damage modifier on my battle axe because I decided to use TWO hands instead of one?
No.
Neither would I allow an 18 Dex dervish dancer to apply his full Dex to damage if he has a negative modifier on STR.
7 str + 18 Dex = (-2 for Str +4 for Dex) +2 damage modifier in combat.
IF you want to realize your full dex to damage, you need to NOT have a negative modifier in str.
So you need to have a 10 or 11 in Str.
In the case of something that required not strength or effort, like a touch attack delivering an effect, this wouldn't apply because there is no inherent damage from the touch itself, thus there is no damage to modify.
Your Swinging a scimitar, in melee. Dumping STR to min max an already dubious feat IS cheese.
I wouldn't allow it at my table unless it was modified as above.
You need to be at least at a normal, no modifier, str.Edit: also consider how this will affect things like combat maneuvers, some one, anyone could just grapple you, and easily and your done. A negative STR modifier is not a good idea in so many ways for someone who is even thinking about melee, nevermind something MEANT to do melee.
Interesting house rule.
Don't care for it, myself.
IF you used RAW then TWF and THF would be messed up with negative str modifiers.
So if you stick to RAW on one clutch of eggs, you have to adhere to it on all of them, there by defaulting to RAI in this case, a weak person doesn't do much damage in melee.
If you want to go the RAWYER route, they you are forced to accept a 7 str person does LESS damage with his battle ax TWO handed, then he does ONE handed. and that same person gets damage BONUS to his off hand weapon when TWF, according to RAW.
So are you really going to make the 7 str guy do less damage with two hands on his B axe? Or more damage with his off hand?
Part of it seems to be that the plan of having only 7 STR includes getting around playing your character at 2nd level. For 3 adventures you will be stuck with a -2 damage for every hit. If the plan is to GM some adventures so you don't have to play your character at second level, this also seems cheesy to me, and I may not get the opportunity to do that anyway.
Having a 10 STR means that at 2nd level I do normal damage, and with arcane mark I can get two attacks in a full round of them. The benefits are not so great later on but there still are some.
Having a 16 INT instead of 18 costs you one arcane pool point and one point off your concentration checks. Admittedly those are things that you would miss but it's not the end of the world to lose them. At 10th level and beyond it costs you a spell per day if you don't have an INT-boosting item by then. Except that you will.
And @ Matt2VK, Yes this is for PFS. I'm aware that 2 of the 3 Fiend Flayer abilities require you to do CON damage to yourself, but you don't have to use them. Meanwhile you don't lose any of the Magus' other abilities, so they are basically free options that other magi don't get. If it is getting late in the adventure, and I really need another arcane pool point, I have the choice of sacrificing CON to get it.
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A modifier can be a penalty or a bonus.
A bonus is always positive in this game; a penalty is always negative.
When using a one-handed weapon in two hands, or when using a two-handed weapon (in two hands), add one-and-a-half times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Not modifier. Bonus.
It's been this way since 3.0; it hasn't changed since.
Neither would I allow an 18 Dex dervish dancer to apply his full Dex to damage if he has a negative modifier on STR.
7 str + 18 Dex = (-2 for Str +4 for Dex) +2 damage modifier in combat.
Obviously, you must also apply a penalty to strength-based characters who have negative dexterity, right?
The reason why I play a Kensai is Perfect Strike...
There will be a day I will drop a 30d6+3d8+3d10+30 strike on the main villain and cut him down in one stroke.
Kensai is not about the AC.. its about the perfect cut... Int to Critical Conformation rolls, stupid boost to Init, add Inelegance to damage During a surprise round or when attacking a flat-footed opponent?
Note During a surprise round.... Regardless of your targets flat footed condition.
I personally can't build a magus with Dervish Dance as find being a Dervish too restricting. It's one concept, a good concept but not all Magi should Dervishes. Sure in that setting fine but I just can't see viking styled magus from the Land of the Linorm kinds acquiring this feat.
I personally can't build a magus with Dervish Dance as find being a Dervish too restricting. It's one concept, a good concept but not all Magi should Dervishes. Sure in that setting fine but I just can't see viking styled magus from the Land of the Linorm kinds acquiring this feat.
No cosac magi?
Okay, here's a question:
Dervish Dance requires that I have 2 ranks in dance before I can take the feat. Can I take the feat in the same level as I acquire the second rank (assuming I can get a feat at 2nd, i.e. fighter level), or do I have to wait until third level, so that I have the ranks before leveling up?
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Okay, here's a question:
Dervish Dance requires that I have 2 ranks in dance before I can take the feat. Can I take the feat in the same level as I acquire the second rank (assuming I can get a feat at 2nd, i.e. fighter level), or do I have to wait until third level, so that I have the ranks before leveling up?
You can take the feat in the same level that you get that 2nd rank in Perform(dance), so you can get the feat as a 2nd level character.
The reason why I play a Kensai is Perfect Strike...
There will be a day I will drop a 30d6+3d8+3d10+30 strike on the main villain and cut him down in one stroke.
Kensai is not about the AC.. its about the perfect cut... Int to Critical Conformation rolls, stupid boost to Init, add Inelegance to damage During a surprise round or when attacking a flat-footed opponent?
Note During a surprise round.... Regardless of your targets flat footed condition.
Could you tell me where those numbers are coming from and the feats that make it possible? Is that supposed to be one hit, or many?
As for me I never really saw the appeal Perfect Strike; you get to spend one of a limited resource to do max damage on a single d6 - d10 die roll, as opposed to being able to spend that point to do 4d6 (at the level you get the ability) with a Shocking Grasp (or hell, 10d6 when you get Improved Spell Recall and Intensified Spell). The improved critical multiplier is cool, but at 2 points per use and not being able to stack it with max weapon damage, it seems much less so.
The reason why I play a Kensai is Perfect Strike...
There will be a day I will drop a strike on the main villain and cut him down in one stroke.
Kensai is not about the AC.. its about the perfect cut... Int to Critical Conformation rolls, stupid boost to Init, add Inelegance to damage During a surprise round or when attacking a flat-footed opponent?
Note During a surprise round.... Regardless of your targets flat footed condition.
Could you tell me where those numbers are coming from and the feats that make it possible? Is that supposed to be one hit, or many?
As for me I never really saw the appeal Perfect Strike; you get to spend one of a limited resource to do max damage on a single d6 - d10 die roll, as opposed to being able to spend that point to do 4d6 (at the level you get the ability) with a Shocking Grasp (or hell, 10d6 when you get Improved Spell Recall and Intensified Spell). The improved critical multiplier is cool, but at 2 points per use and not being able to stack it with max weapon damage, it seems much less so.
Sorry it should be (added 1d10)
30d6+3d8+2d10+30
Remember if you are attacking with a touch spell though your weapon, and the weapon crits.. it crits... Katana is x2 crit.. but x3 with the above.
10d6 Shocking Grasp (Intensified), 1d8 base weapon damage, 1d10 from Shocking burst, +3 weapon, +3 damage (Arcane Strike), +4 Strength.
x3 crit multiplier - Perfect Storm...
Damn I forgot to add power attack to that... I can get a +4 to damage for suffering a -2 to hit.. which would add +12 more to the above.
also forgot to add possible Int to damage which by 13th will be +5 for an additional +15 damage.
Spells only crit for x2; that is independent of the weapon's crit multiplier.
Besides that, yeah it is a nice crit, but it's also two Arcane Points per for it to happen which leaves me unconvinced. Eventually each Arcane Point translates into an extra 10d6 shocking grasp for a base magus and the lose of that and reduced spells per day makes it seem like you'll not be doing that much. INT to damage is cool, but considering it can only be used on a surprise round or against flat footed enemies, it doesn't seem like it would help that often and at the very least you'd probably never get more than one attack with that bonus.
Remember if you are attacking with a touch spell though your weapon, and the weapon crits.. it crits... Katana is x2 crit.. but x3 with the above.The rules for Spellstrike state that the spell damage is always x2 modifier, no matter what the weapon's crit modifier is. Kensai does not change that. When you use the Kensai ability, your weapon damage becomes x3, but the spell damage remains x2.
Ok fair enough (just saw that) but its a lot of damage either way.
20d6+3d8+2d10+57 if the stars align.
@chaoseffect.. getting your target flat footed is not all that hard.. let alone the fact that a Kensai can have a +16 Init, also By the time you get a Magus to 13th level I would expect to have vanish or Improved Invisibility loaded.
as for Arcane Points.. remember Kensai loses spell recall, which is the main AP drain for most magus. there is also that nice ring that allows you to store APs
True enough for Improved Invisibility; didn't realize that was on the Magus spell list, so INT to hit would be quite usable with it. Init doesn't really help as much though for it, as you're not getting your full rotation due to having to spend your first turn moving up (unless you Force Hook Charge... fun spell) so no full attack where it would give the greatest benefit. Still Improved Invisibility is awesome. For Arcane Points, I know Kensai doesn't get Spell Recall; what I meant was that replacing it with Perfect Strike seems like a poor trade.
I agree.. it's not a "full attack" combo..
but if it lines up you can drop a main baddy to 1/2 it's HP or kill them outright in the opening round.
I think of the power as a "boss fight" power or the "Get it off get it off!" power. It's on demand burst damage.
Critical Perfection just feeds into it..
I have been thinking of taking Critical Focus and a Critical Feat (as a Katana will be crits on 14-20 with Improved Critical)but I still have not made my mind up.
Bleeding Critical looks yummy...