I've been wanting to play a gish character for the longest time. I'm a loooong time DM for Pathfinder and PFS, but when it comes to player time, sadly I don't have much.
That said, I've always been intrigued by the Eldritch Knight. It has always been written off as kind've bad, and I get that, but I'd like to make one (either using the Prestige class or in some other fasion.) anyways.
Here's what I've got, using a modified standard array and our DM is maxing HP at lvl's 1 and 2. I had planned on a odd type of switch hitter build, prebuffing, opening with some spells, then going melee with a 2H weapon when they close. I don't plan to be a sturdy frontliner, but rather a source of versatile damage.
The concept for the character is one I've always wanted to run ever since reading about Irori. The premise is a Paladin of Irori who was a ward of the temple and grew up as a temple guard. His father is actually a holy guardian of the temple, and is the bloodline from which he draws his power. Having learned of his lineage, he's set off to achieve perfection in his own way, miming both his god and his father.
I'm torn between the Celestial and Destined bloodlines. Celestial is better for RP purposes but Destined fits as well, and can provide a number of bonus feats I want to take, including Leadership and Arcane Strike.
Human
HP: 22 AC: 15/17 (Depending on sword/board or 2H)
STR: 16/18 (+2 Racial)
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 09
Cha: 15
Feats: Power Attack, Toughness, ????
Traits: Magical Knack, Natural Born Leader
Next I plan on the 7 long levels of Sorcerer. With my high strength I should be able to contribute well in melee until level 5 or 6, where I start to fall behind. I say 7 levels of Sorcerer because sticking it out one more level for the bloodline feat and spell seems worthwhile to me.
I also plan to take the alternate human option for favored class sorcerer and stash away a few extra spells once 1st levels are obtainable. At 10, current plan is to take my first level of Eldritch Knight.
Human Pal2/Sor7/EK 1
HP: 50ish AC: 19 w/ Mage Armor and Shield spells.
STR: 16/18 (+2 Racial)
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 09
Cha: 17 (lvl 4/8 boosts)
Feats: Power Attack, Toughness, Attack From Above, Leadership
Traits: Magical Knack, Natural Born Leader
Items: My wealth will go into defensive items and raising my charisma. I don't envision Orion as a tank, but at least capable of soaking a hit or two before having to step back and heal with items/scrolls/lay-hands.
How can I make this character effective and keep the feel I'm after and not rob our 4 man party? Our DM refuses to disclose party mechanics because he wants us to play what we want and not meta-game a role. I like this because I know he will re-adjust things if we wind up with 3 fighters and a rogue or something. I'm also open to different classes mixes, archtypes, or whatever, but I cannot run a Magus as it and Summoner are banned at his table.
If Irori doesn't have paladins, getting to Champion of Irori just got far more complicated.
Seems kind of odd that Irori doesn't have Paladins when there's a whole Prestige Class built around being a Paladin of Irori.
Damn Bearded Ben-ja.
To me, pally 3, sorcerer 2, dragon disciple x, eldrich Knight y. EK is great, and compliments DD nicely, and the claws, flight, natural armor bonus, etc, really help Gish it up.
Crossblood draconic with your preferred bloodline...destined just makes sense, but I can tally see a gold dragon banging an aasimar and making a lil angelic dragonblooded killing machine, too.
On the lesson concerning Faiths of Balance, that's an interesting detail.
Perhaps a Paladin NOT attached to a church but who still worships Irori goes down the Champion of Irori route?
Either way, I think my DM can shoehorn a Paladin into the church without much effort, since I dont think either of us have ever used the book.
In regards to building the character, does anyone have any advice? I've never considered Dragon Disciple to be honest. I suppose I always looked at it as a .. I fail to find a good adjective .. over the top prestige class? "Omg so like my parents were Astral Deva x Gold Dragon and I'm prophecied to become the new god of awesome!"
As a long time DM, I see some "I AM SO AWESOME LOOK AT MEEEEEEE IM A SNOWFLAKE" backgrounds. Mine makes me roll eyes from time to time as well, and it's relatively tame, and I'm only pursuing it as a guilty pleasure because Pathfinder Sorcerers are ALL special snowflakes really.
I'll look at D Disciple.
Any other ideas out there? I'm so used to running I haven't played in forever!
Osterisl made a very thorough guide to the DD, with some great tips. There's also a decent Gish guide. Flip through 'em.
A personal fave...half orc pally 3, sorcerer 2, DD 10, ek 5. Croasblooded gold dragon and orc
. Claws, bite, wings, fire breath, enlarging self, natural armor...
Grab spiked armor for a hands free attack to get four hits a round before bab6. You are pure holy pissed off rage of goodness, light, joy, and death.
Also, it just means a dragon nailed a human who's descendant happened to enjoy a good "tuskin'" from orcs. Not soooooo snow flaky.
I find those to be funny especially because so many of those 'snowflakes' aren't original builds.
As a long time DM, I see some "I AM SO AWESOME LOOK AT MEEEEEEE IM A SNOWFLAKE" backgrounds. Mine makes me roll eyes from time to time as well
Yea. I dont mind cookie cutter stat/item/feat builds so much. After all, as long as rules exist, there's always going to be a best way to do something within those rules.
That said, I swear, the number of times I've had to throw enchanted scimitars to my surly drow rangers is maddening. I always mess up the enchantments and the names on purpose, just as a little jab of independence while I work to give the players what they want.
Example: Drow Ranger/Barb with a sapphire figurine walrus named Tuskavhar. He also had two enchanted scimitars, Flickerdance and Sprinkle, which had fire and acid enchants. =)
Close, but I didn't give him the cigar.
Gish is kinda the point I guess. I know it's probably done better with a Magus or Wizard Fighter, but Paladin/Sorc has a lot to do with the character idea.
Osterisl made a very thorough guide to the DD, with some great tips. There's also a decent Gish guide. Flip through 'em.
A personal fave...half orc pally 3, sorcerer 2, DD 10, ek 5. Croasblooded gold dragon and orc
. Claws, bite, wings, fire breath, enlarging self, natural armor...Grab spiked armor for a hands free attack to get four hits a round before bab6. You are pure holy pissed off rage of goodness, light, joy, and death.
Also, it just means a dragon nailed a human who's descendant happened to enjoy a good "tuskin'" from orcs. Not soooooo snow flaky.
Guides? =)
Where be the guides?
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According to faiths of balance Irori doesn't have Paladins (it says something along the lines of "Abadar is the only god [in this book] that has paladin followers") which is a bit surprising to me but I guess that role in this church is mostly covered by monks
Wow, fantastic memory, but not quite what it says.
"Of all the gods of balance, only one supports and promotes a holy order of paladins: Abadar." Faiths of Balance, p. 27. Lack of a promoted and supported holy order of paladins is different from no paladins.
Gods and Magic, Faiths of Balance, and the Irori article in AP 53 all fail to mention paladins of Irori (whether they exist or not). They state there are many paths to enlightenment. Bards and barbarians are given as examples of classes unlikely to be Irori worshippers.
The original Campaign Setting (p. 47) and Paths of Prestige (pp. 16-17) both specifically state there are paladins of Irori.
The idea of bards hanging out with monks and paladins is kind of comical.
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Re the OP.
You can argue that a magus is better than an Eldritch Knight. Persoanlly I like the Eldritch Knight if your going to higher level, higher level spells vs dual spell and weapon use. At low levels and mid levels, a magus is usually more gish.
Smite and true strike are devastating. You can use wands of cure light wounds out of the gate. Archery (divine hunter) builds work great with the lighter armor.
Re role playing, Irori is the god of self-perfection and knowledge, which should provide a good basis for all your classes.
Yea, the character was always a faithful of Irori, but it was mostly because the Church was his home. Once he finds out his father was a celestial being with ties to Irori, he sets out to find his own path to perfection.
This is why I feel either Destined or Celestial were acceptable bloodlines. I just dont want my story-built character to hamper the fun of any people in the party who feel my non-optimized build will hold the party back.
On the bright side, we dont know each others classes, so a wide range of abilities between sorc/pally might be a boon?
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Level 10 with 19 ac and 50ish HP?!? Yikes. I suppose you could spam mirror image to stay alive...but seriously, work on that ac.
Anyways, a paladin/sorc/EK can work really well. I personally prefer to have more charisma at the start (at least 18...ususally go full on 20) for higher level power. You can boost str to decent enough levels with spells and items later on. I also generally like shields and TWF...mainly because shield bash and true strike is fun...but shields are awesome. A +5 shield of bashing that is also a +5 defending weapon can shift over +5 to AC and still get +5 to hit and damage from shield mastery. So with decent AC and some good spells, your fine :) .
Level 10 with 19 ac and 50ish HP?!? Yikes. I suppose you could spam mirror image to stay alive...but seriously, work on that ac.
Anyways, a paladin/sorc/EK can work really well. I personally prefer to have more charisma at the start (at least 18...ususally go full on 20) for higher level power. You can boost str to decent enough levels with spells and items later on. I also generally like shields and TWF...mainly because shield bash and true strike is fun...but shields are awesome. A +5 shield of bashing that is also a +5 defending weapon can shift over +5 to AC and still get +5 to hit and damage from shield mastery. So with decent AC and some good spells, your fine :) .
That was assuming rolls of 3 on my Sorc levels with a +1 con bonus. The AC is assuming no magical items or enchanted chain shirt.
Can you cast spells while holding a shield? (IE, does it leave he hand free for component grabbing?)
The idea of bards hanging out with monks and paladins is kind of comical.
Especially since the Monty Python guys taught us that the idea of cannibalism = evil does not apply when it comes to eating bards. ;)
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Your hand is considered free when holding a light shield with no other item in hand (otherwise none THF paladins and clerics would also be utterly screwed...and they have to hang out front way more then EK does). However your personal DM may disagree...if that is the case, get a quickdraw shield and quick draw feat (doning and putting away these shield are a free action with quickdraw feat). The quickdraw shield with the feat is actually a good idea period for switching to bow or THF (THF for all your attack, free action strap on shield at the end for AC...but the shield master trick nets you more AC so I kind of like that fighting style better for the EK). I like using the various size up spells with a reach weapon. Attack with the reach weapon for a full attack, get your AoOs as they move up. On your turn, glove of storing the reach weapon (or use none magical reach weapons and just drop it) and quick draw your sword and board and go to town.
As far as I understand it, EK's are pretty solid as long as they are built well. If you go for Dragon disciple levels, I would only take four so that you can bump your strength and only loose one caster level. The strength bump is pretty significant though, so loosing one level would be worth it in my book.
What level is this character going to start at? It is usually a good idea to build an EK with a prime casting stat.
Have you considered an Aasimar? The Angel variant has the stats you need, and if you take scion of humanity you can also take the spells per level up because your also a human. Its also a very fluffy choice for your character, so taking the gold dragon bloodline could still work for your sorcerer. Picking up destined through heritage may be a cool choice too... I wonder if that would work?
Since I've already lost two characters in our current AP so far, I'm considering a highly defensive Pal/Sor/DD/EK for my next character should my current Ftr/Wiz/EK die.
It's a simple Pal 2/Sor 3/DD 4/EK 10/Sor 1 build. It got the Paladin's huge saves and a pretty good AC (30 at level 7 without any buffs). As I said it's a defensive build, so I'm using full plate and a heavy shield. Spells used are mostly defensive, using either still spell or verbal only spells like Blur and Displacement. Surprisingly, he's still pretty good offensive-wise. Basically full BAB progression after level 6 and the damage isn't too bad either - even with a one-handed weapon - thanks to high strength, arcane strike and weapon specialization.
His low-ish charisma makes his spells mostly useless for offensive casting, except spells without save. But I'm pretty sure the build still works great if you focus on charisma instead of strength.
Thanks for all the replies!
Cold Napalm: THF = Two Handed Fighting/Two Weapon Fighting? If Two Handed Fighting, I wasn't aware you could strap on a shield and still swing a greatsword!
Trogdar: We are starting at 3, so I was looking at Pally 2 for the first two levels of max HP, and Sorc 1.
Everyone mentioning DD: I looked at it last night and while the class seems really good, it's just not something I'm interested. I don't know why, but I can't help placing Dragons and Drizzt in the same "AVOID" category. Thanks so much for that tip! Mebbe another time, as that +4 Strength for just 1 caster level is an amazing gain.
That said, I really like Celestial, and it gives me some divine spells and a bonus to summoned creatures I wont ever use, lol.
DD is so strong I considered taking Crossblooded Dragon/Celestial lines, but if I'm already behind 2 caster levels from paladin and 1 from EK, I'd hate to give up a fourth with DD AND know fewer spells still. (Plus, I don't mind claiming one extravagant bloodline in a background.. two is getting kinda fantabulous for my tastes.)
Trogdar & Proftobe: I like Aasimar too, and was really wanting to go that route, but only basic races are allowed. Remember, this DM bans Summoners, Alchemists, and Magus because they offer too much power. He's a bit more traditional. Also, what is ASF? The abbreviation isn't one I know.
I was also asked just how gish I plan to be. I sortve envision the following..
* Switch Hitter - Open with non-saving throw combat/damage spells and buff self/allies until enemies close. Then lay into them with Enlarged size, big weapons, and defensive buffs.
* Versatility - I plan on taking spells that allow me to re-adjust if I need to re-arrange myself in battle. Vanish/Dim Door/Teleport/Fly will all probably be in my spell slots at some point. I'll likely take greater invis as well.
* Melee Stable / Spell Capable - At some point I'm going to run out of buffs or my spells will be impractical. At this point I plan on going melee with my opponents. I'm not going to be too far behind in BAB, I should still be better than 3/4 anyways. My strength will be okay, which is why I'm going 18 Str early. I suppose I should consider going 18 in Charisma and 15 in STR then buffing it to 16 at 4 and just using Bull Strength for the + 4 there? That spell will also be useful to others in the party, not just myself. (assuming we dont get a party of 4 wizards or something.)
Other Contributions: The GM has allowed me permission to take Leadership at 7 to call a Lantern Archon Cohort with Cleric Levels. The only feats it can take are channeling and healing feats, so we basically get a little healbot in the party.
Here's my plan on spells, btw, at least through level 10.
Pal 1: Nada
Pal 2: Zip
Sor 1: 0: Read Magic, Detect Magic, Acid Splash, Light
1: True Strike, Enlarge Person
Sor 2: 0: Ignite
Sor 3: 1: Shield
Sor 4: 0: Message
1: Magic Missile (Human FC Bonus), Bless (Bloodline)
2: SCorching Ray
Sor 5: 1: Vanish (Human FC Bonus), Adjuring Step
2: Bulls Strength, Resist Energy (Bloodline)
Sor 6: 0: Detect Poison
2: Blur (Human FC Bonus)
3: Fly
Sor 7: 1: Feather Fall
2: Mirror Image (Human FC Bonus)
3: Haste, Magic Circle vs Evil (Bloodline)
...
That's going to give me some poke, some buffs, and some defense I can muster up. I just haven't any idea how to use my feats!
Sounds like you have a grasp on what you want, have fun with it. Keep in mind that the EK is actually geared towards being strong caster, who can wade into melee as opposed to the other way around, unless you prop up your ability modifiers somehow (thus the DD recommendation).
I would also suggest looking into a weapon with a good crit range for late in your career. Not an issue initially.
I would hold off on power attack until you have caught up on your attack bonus as well. Also, think about some long term buffs like heroism to pick up morale bonuses for a courageous weapon. Trade out bulls strength for it, its a better bang for the buck.
Isn't bull strength better if I'm using a 2H weapon?
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Yes THF = Two handed fighting. BUT quickdraw shield with the quick draw feat allows you to equip or put away the shield as a free action. So you have the shield and a two handed weapon. You full attack with the two handed weapon then you free action the shield on. You can't AoO with your two handed weapon, but you can with the shield (if you have improved shield bash, you won't lose the AC when you do...so unless you squeeze in improvd shield bash, I don't suggest you take AoO). Anyways, you do the full two handed weapon damage and then incoming attacks have the benefit of the shield. On your next turn, free action put the shield away, full attack, free action the shield back.
Heroism is a 3rd level spells for sorc/wiz...so can't switch out bull str for it anyways.
Enlarge is okayish...but it is a full round cast so it is hard to get off in combat, it doesn't net you a bonus to hit and lowers AC by 2. The reach and damage dice up is pretty nice...but I generally don't use it much past getting level 2 spells on myself when I have access to alter self (+2 str...no down side). The party fighter who will be fishing less for bonus to hit and is generally less squishy likes enlarge still however.
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RAW quick draw doesn't allow you to put weapons up for free. It only allows you to draw a weapon. Its a common houserule that it goes both ways but it is a houserule. Check with your DM first.
A weapon...no. Quickdraw SHIELD is something else entirely. Read the description of the shield. It lets you equip and put away the shield both as a free action with quickdraw feat.
Osterisl made a very thorough guide to the DD, with some great tips.
He did? Man, I got some competition!
Bulls Strength doesn't stack with any Belts of Strength you get, so it isn't quite as good.
ASF= Arcane Spell Failure. It's the reason why wizards aren't in full plate.
Dragon Disciples are really cool. I should know. But they do not fit every concept. One thing you should consider is that bloodlines often aren't just from ancestry. They can be from extreme events like a contract with a planar being as well. Also, you don't have to go crossblooded and lose some spells if you want to invest a couple of feats into Eldritch Heritage.
Enlarge Person works well with Reach weapons, having a 20' reach can be really useful for extra attacks. Reach weapon + Combat Reflexes can get you an extra attack or two in just about every combat, help you avoid Attacks of Opportunities, and get more full attacks. If your party already has a front liner, it can allow you to hit from the back row way easier. Enlarge person isn't as great with regular melee weapons, because you don't get the massive reach, just regular large person reach.
Typing with thumbs on a smartphone, O. Sorry for the misname. Love the DD guide, though.
Typing with thumbs on a smartphone, O. Sorry for the misname. Love the DD guide, though.
Thanks!
And don't worry about the misname. I'll just add you to the list. The long long list. Who knew 7 letters were so hard to put together?
Oops, wrong spell level. Bulls strength is usually just underwhelming because you can get a belt relatively early that obsoletes the spell. Its considerably worse when you are getting it late, because you are almost certain to be upgrading at that point.
