Being both means it gets the best of both worlds. It's a Natural Weapon and it's a manufactured weapon, meaning you get the upsides of both.
Haste should work.
Yup.. haste works with unarmed strikes.
Side note: the thread in which he posted this was specifically about monk unarmed strikes. Jason first replied with a page citation, and when badgered, replied as quoted above. But since he didn't quote anyone, or specify what he was answering, it's completely unclear if he was clarifying his response to the original poster, or addressing someone later who asked about non-monks.
I don't see where the "completely unclear" part is. Unarmed Strikes aren't specific to monks, and the rules refer to them all over the place. Haste works with unarmed strikes.
I don't see where the "completely unclear" part is. Unarmed Strikes aren't specific to monks, and the rules refer to them all over the place. Haste works with unarmed strikes.
Jason's first post was directly in response to someone asking specifically about monk unarmed strikes. His reply was a page citation, which I believe was the unarmed strike ability in the monk class description. ("Unarmed Strike, page 58, 3rd paragraph.")
So if the context of his second post was the OP/thread, then he was clarifying that his page citation means it works. If that's the case, then his response was based on monk unarmed strikes, and then doesn't apply to non-monks. (Because the reason it works is that A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon.)
So there's still no real consensus. People can argue that Jason said specifically it works with unarmed strikes, and because he didn't say monk unarmed strikes, it's a universal rule. And people can also argue that based on the context of the thread, and his earlier page citation, he's speaking specifically about monk unarmed strikes, the justification for which doesn't apply to non-monks.
(This was all directly on the heels of the 'house in order' debacle, so I assume that his terseness is a result of that, rather than a decision to make fairly sweeping changes to a spell in an unclear way.)
-edit- And, given the lack of subsequent FAQ posts, it's pretty clear that we didn't send him enough gifts. ;)
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This came up when I played last night, and likely will again in the future, now that my sorcerer has haste as a known spell and I routinely play him at tables with monks.
I had thought that haste doesn't work on a flurrying monk because of the part of the spell description that says "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon", so I didn't think they could get an extra attack from both the flurry and the haste. But it's vague enough in the wording that we weren't sure, and the GM allowed it, at least partially just to be nice because most of the table was playing up in an adventure with a deadly reputation (but not season 4, thankfully).
So from this thread, it seems that a hasted monk does get the extra haste attack on top of their flurry. Is that confirmed by Paizo staff anywhere?
Monks get the extra attack. My group does rule that it counts as the bonus attack if the monk were to use his ki for an extra attack.
(Meaning the monk cannot gain the haste and ki attack during a flurry).
Also remember that haste's movement speed bonus and the monk's movement speed bonus do not stack.
I don't see where the "completely unclear" part is. Unarmed Strikes aren't specific to monks, and the rules refer to them all over the place. Haste works with unarmed strikes.Jason's first post was directly in response to someone asking specifically about monk unarmed strikes. His reply was a page citation, which I believe was the unarmed strike ability in the monk class description. ("Unarmed Strike, page 58, 3rd paragraph.")
So if the context of his second post was the OP/thread, then he was clarifying that his page citation means it works. If that's the case, then his response was based on monk unarmed strikes, and then doesn't apply to non-monks. (Because the reason it works is that A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon.)
So there's still no real consensus. People can argue that Jason said specifically it works with unarmed strikes, and because he didn't say monk unarmed strikes, it's a universal rule. And people can also argue that based on the context of the thread, and his earlier page citation, he's speaking specifically about monk unarmed strikes, the justification for which doesn't apply to non-monks.
(This was all directly on the heels of the 'house in order' debacle, so I assume that his terseness is a result of that, rather than a decision to make fairly sweeping changes to a spell in an unclear way.)
-edit- And, given the lack of subsequent FAQ posts, it's pretty clear that we didn't send him enough gifts. ;)
I'm not sure though why there isn't real consensus. As BW-Green mentioned above, the PRD copy for Haste stipulates it covers both natural and manufactured weapons. While for monks, UAS is RAW treated as both natural and manufactured, even for the more vague question of how non-monks UAS are treated, it would be at minimum treated as a natural attack and still be covered by Haste.
I had thought that haste doesn't work on a flurrying monk because of the part of the spell description that says "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon", so I didn't think they could get an extra attack from both the flurry and the haste.
Flurry works like two-weapon fighting.
If someone is two-weapon fighting, which means using two weapons and getting an extra attack with their off-hand, would you let them get the extra attack from haste?
If so, then it should work with flurry as well.
So from this thread, it seems that a hasted monk does get the extra haste attack on top of their flurry. Is that confirmed by Paizo staff anywhere?
I can't find any actual statements that say two-weapon fighting is or isn't a similar effect to that of haste or a speed weapon.
I've never heard of anyone even really considering that, though.
I'm not sure though why there isn't real consensus.
It's covered in this post.
Basically, taken out of context, JBs post can be applied to all unarmed strikes. But taken in context, it applies only to monk unarmed strikes.
So there's no consensus because some folks feel JB was just clarifying his earlier post, and thus it only applies to monks, while other folks feel JB was making a sweeping change on how haste works and applying it universally to all unarmed strikes.
As BW-Green mentioned above, the PRD copy for Haste stipulates it covers both natural and manufactured weapons. While for monks, UAS is RAW treated as both natural and manufactured, even for the more vague question of how non-monks UAS are treated, it would be at minimum treated as a natural attack and still be covered by Haste....
Strike, Unarmed: "Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons"
Unarmed Strike: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
This means a non-monk's unarmed strike is not treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons, which means, unless JB was changing the rule, haste does not grant an extra unarmed strike attack for non-monks.
Strike, Unarmed: "Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons"
Unarmed Strike: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
This means a non-monk's unarmed strike is not treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons, which means, unless JB was changing the rule, haste does not grant an extra unarmed strike attack for non-monks.
I see. My mistake. Good catch. :)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Combat)
You are skilled at fighting while unarmed.Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.
Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.
If considered to be armed, does that mean non-monks aren't using natural weapons either, or is that a stretch?
If considered to be armed, does that mean non-monks aren't using natural weapons either, or is that a stretch?
Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons.
You may be armed, but you're armed with an improved unarmed strike, not with a natural weapon.
Good to know.
Thanks rules guy ;)