Hunger and Thirst

[Dorje Sylas]

Real world point, athletes eat foods for buffs.

They eat very specific foods at very specific periods both pre and post activity. This specialized eating goes above and beyond what your 'average' person eats to do a similar activity but at a lower level. It's not just athletes. There is a whole side busness in academic performance boosting foods and consumables.

I would use these real world cases to argue that a combined Debuff/buff system is the best approach. There is a minimum level of 'consuming' that needs to be done to maintain 'standard' health, but beyond that their is specialized consumption for increased performance beyond what is considered 'norm'.

A pure debuff only system means that a full not-hungry state is the top end, which is what specialize diets do in the real world. It sets that as the norm, the condition players will be forced to by psychology. This rules out any choice of deliberately going above that "norm". In short in you system you'd never see marathon runners in PFO carbo-loading.

How much buff should eating above minimum net? Not much, but enough to be difference between escaping or not escaping a carbo-loaded bandit in a prolonged foot race for your life.

[Drakhan Valane]

I just prefer the buffs to be handled by magic or special abilities, not by food.

[Valandur]

Going to make a freakin killing selling outhouses! Kalbash the Gnomes thrones of Gold! Make your bum feel like royalty!

[Marthian]

And why can't we just assume the character eats while you're not logged onto it?

Since characters are training even when you're not logged onto them, I would suspect they would take "breaks" inbetween to eat, and it barely costs anything in the TT for adventurers (and crafters/merchants dealing with said adventurers) to make some small change on the side to pay for meals.

[Being]

If you are delving deep into a dungeon from which you may not emerge for days, then you would be well advised to take along food.

<sigh> Yes and TP.

[Keign]

I don't feel like a hunger/thirst mechanic would apply well to every situation, however:

Make fast travel slower if you don't have food for the journey (if you don't bring rations) you'll need to forage or hunt to eat.

Animals - mounts, pets, and such will die without food and water - which you could either give to them, or you could release them to find nourishment in an appropriate area.

Make food a cost for the construction of harvesting camps and all other structures. In particular because it sounds as if there will always at least one NPC needing to be fed in those places.

Require food and drink as a part of the Refresh system - and attach the Refresh system effectiveness to Inns and other social structures, somehow, to ensure they get business. (Though frankly I think keeping them around simply as hubs where you know you can find food may well be sufficient.)

Overall, my thought is that you should not necessarily have to stop to eat and drink all the time, but you SHOULD at least have food and drink on your person. If you can learn skills in the background over time, you can see to eating, drinking, and defecating in the background too.

[Dorje Sylas]

Drakhan Valane wrote:

I just prefer the buffs to be handled by magic or special abilities, not by food.

There are buffs and then there are fractional buffs. EVE, spreadsheets online, is very good for this the buffs of good eating don't have to massive or highly noticeable but people looking for fractions of a percent advantage could make use of them on top of raw magic.

I'm just pointing out that food has both debilitating (not having any) and invigorating properties. To have a system at try to simulate raw hunger but not the side comes across as time wasting. No is going to become a fisher or a baker if no is going to buy the food. No one will buy the food if there isn't a positive beyond

Hell, look at Minecraft. And to an extent DayZ. Minecraft has hunger which is linked to health regneration, and most people carry just stacks of cooked fish, or break, or porkchops. Without a solid benefit beyond simple hunger alleviation that's all you'll get mainly. Except those odd people who bake cakes and cookies for RP and flavor. If carrots increase effecitent luminosity by 1 level, more Minecrafters would go out of their way to farm and bring carrots along as a supplement to torches and other brighter "magic" light sorces.

Buffs from "better" foods don't have to be big to be useful in making hunger/food a viable and reasonable sub-system with extend game economy impacts. People who don't are will keep a basic stack of trail rations and a simple waterskin, like virtual all P&P beginners do. People who do care, either for RP reasons or for the slight bonuses will make it a market and possibly a gold-sink.

I'd also like to throw out an optional auto "cost of living" system that will automatically pay for and restock basic consumables upon visiting the correct shop and/or part of town.

[Darcnes]

@Dorje Sylas I think I addressed the benefits of simulating a form of hunger fairly well in an earlier post.

Regarding buffs from food, the primary impact of food would normally be on stats, which generally exist in PFO to determine speed of skill training. Messing with that balance is a very, very bad thing to touch. However, this could instead extend to the effectiveness of skills related to an ability.

I have expressed my opinion of needless buffs in no uncertain terms; but, you make a good point where very small bonuses are concerned, particularly in relation to diet.

I also feel that with such small bonuses that I could get behind this, it also reflects the kind of replicable, sustainable benefits that I have discussed here in regards to high level play. (Not character level, just that those of hardcore mentality do what it takes to win.)

On a side note, given the mechanics I proposed, I would also say that while rations should be available from beginning merchants, that they should be of relatively low quality, reflecting an equally low cost. A fortified version of the ration should be quickly available from the players, and it should become the new staple for adventurers.

I also suggest that such bonuses as would come from a well made meal, such as those available from taverns that care to provide such (a point of competition between taverns: who provides which meals), and by extension the players who craft these, should only last at most a single day's duration. To be more precise, the time it would take for a set percentage of the sustenance bar to deplete without any hinderances. This might be a half day, or a full day (in game) or some other amount of time, but a half day seems the most reasonable to me for a meal to sustain someone with bonuses. Perhaps these tiny bonuses would just shrink even further when they reached that mark until they disappeared altogether.

[Richter Bones]

I don't like seeing penalties for not eating but I would like to see small bonuses for eating.

[Being]

Yeah: starvation is such a downer... eliminating it would be a great service to all. For example it would eliminate a whole category of alignment buffing actions for the do-gooders and really streamline so much of the work in the world, such as farming... which has no place in a fantasy setting, has it?

[Dakcenturi]

After 6 pages of debating someone really should make a video question for them to address in their next video FAQ :P

[Dorje Sylas]

Dakcenturi wrote:

After 6 pages of debating someone really should make a video question for them to address in their next video FAQ :P

I suspect the answer will be much along the lines of how the US Supreme Court picks cases: "Nope, not touching that one."

[Drakhan Valane]

@ Dorje Sylas

From page 4:

Stephen Cheney wrote:

But seriously, useful thread. We are following the discussion with great interest.

[Being]

Question posted.

Now you will see how Ancients ask questions.

[Valandur]

Being wrote:

Question posted.

Now you will see how Ancients ask questions.

Now the question is, will they answer it :p

[Being]

Eventually, yes. Even if it is at release ;)

[Micco]

The arguments have all been made. No sesnse in repeating them:
+1 for food/drink requirement
+1 for penalties vs buffs (which are the province of magic)
+1 for food lasting a while
+1 for Andius's suggested system except penalty, not buff

[DakSevkla]

Keign wrote:

I don't feel like a hunger/thirst mechanic would apply well to every situation, however:

Make fast travel slower if you don't have food for the journey (if you don't bring rations) you'll need to forage or hunt to eat.

Animals - mounts, pets, and such will die without food and water - which you could either give to them, or you could release them to find nourishment in an appropriate area.

Make food a cost for the construction of harvesting camps and all other structures. In particular because it sounds as if there will always at least one NPC needing to be fed in those places.

Require food and drink as a part of the Refresh system - and attach the Refresh system effectiveness to Inns and other social structures, somehow, to ensure they get business. (Though frankly I think keeping them around simply as hubs where you know you can find food may well be sufficient.)

Overall, my thought is that you should not necessarily have to stop to eat and drink all the time, but you SHOULD at least have food and drink on your person. If you can learn skills in the background over time, you can see to eating, drinking, and defecating in the background too.

I really, really like this. Tie Refresh and Injury healing to food and drink. And tie the freshest Food and Drink to Farms and Inns. Suddenly, people have a reason to Farm, and ANOTHER reason to visit Inns. This is a Fantasy RPG we're talking about here, Inns are usually pretty prevalent and meaningful. I mean, you won't have to go there to sleep (unless that helps fix injuries), but going to an Inn to eat when you go in to town to help heal yourself and regain your Refresh's? That's a great idea that adds complexity, but also a ton of roleplayable layers to the game.

[Keign]

DakSevkla wrote:

I really, really like this. Tie Refresh and Injury healing to food and drink. And tie the freshest Food and Drink to Farms and Inns. Suddenly, people have a reason to Farm, and ANOTHER reason to visit Inns. This is a Fantasy RPG we're talking about here, Inns are usually pretty prevalent and meaningful. I mean, you won't have to go there to sleep (unless that helps fix injuries), but going to an Inn to eat when you go in to town to help heal yourself and regain your Refresh's? That's a great idea that adds complexity, but also a ton of roleplayable layers to the game.

D'aww, thanks. Due to the lack of response, I was starting to think nobody had noticed my post here.

[Being]

Sorry, got caught up in other stuff.

I think your ideas are good. I do think that if a character has a mount in the wild then the mount would forage food (grass) when available... which would explain 'slowing' fast travel when the horse isn't being fed. So you would have to carry oats for you horse if in really rocky terrain, or in a desert both oats and water would have to be supplied. Not that there is desert in the river kingdoms.

[Richter Bones]

J.R.R. Tolkien, Jr, Jr version of Lord of the Rings and the use of poop

[Being]

I don't think I follow your thought. At least not too closely.

[Drewber]

I could see how this could work, but at the same time I don't want to have to worry about those things when I'm in game. If anything I think people would be more annoyed by it then enjoy it.

[The Shameless One]

leperkhaun wrote:

I dont like hunger and thirst mechanics in an MMO, honestly they dont serve to add anything to the game.

Yes, let the bad mechanics stay in the past... I really don't want to be able to die of thirst in Pathfinder Online, there are enough things that can kill you already.

[DropBearHunter]

The Shameless One wrote:

Yes, let the bad mechanics stay in the past...

no one is asking for bad hunger and thirst mechanics

The Shameless One wrote:

I really don't want to be able to die of thirst in Pathfinder Online, there are enough things that can kill you already.

also no one has asked that people actually die from hunger and thirst, yet.

[Karnov]

If there is going to be a hunger and thirst mechanic then there has to be a scurvy mechanic* as well. Citrus farming is the backbone of every great empire, and the River Kingdoms should be no exception.

*other vitamin deficiency mechanics to be incorporated in future expansions.

[Being]

Yeah, you dislike food and drink so all the farmers and cooks can just go take a hike, right?

[Being]

A Paladin who finds himself trapped in a dungeon without food and water should be able to die of hunger and thirst so he can get out of there without committing suicide and thus losing alignment for killing a good character (himself).

[The Shameless One]

DropBearHunter wrote:

The Shameless One wrote:

Yes, let the bad mechanics stay in the past...

no one is asking for bad hunger and thirst mechanics

The Shameless One wrote:

I really don't want to be able to die of thirst in Pathfinder Online, there are enough things that can kill you already.

also no one has asked that people actually die from hunger and thirst, yet.

If you read this thread they actually do.

[Zetesofos]

Being wrote:

A Paladin who finds himself trapped in a dungeon without food and water should be able to die of hunger and thirst so he can get out of there without committing suicide and thus losing alignment for killing a good character (himself).

This is unfortunatly the problem - take this to it's conclusion: you die of hunger/thirst. In PnP games, this means roll new character, so it's important. In an MMO, it means respawn.

Death isn't as big a deterrent. Effectively, this would be viewed as a 'pay resources to keep your stuff' mechanic.

I can see food/water being useful in certain areas, but as a general mechanic, I don't see it bring any enjoyment to playing.

[TClifford]

I am not in favor of food/drink to just survive. Too much micromanagement for me. But I can see a benefit to food/drink for buffs. The whole idea of PLO is a dynamic world where you create things to make it and ourselves better. What better for that then food/drink. Gives farmers a reason to farm. Gives gathers a reason to gather. Gives cooks and brewers reason to create.

I see this as a corner stone of the economy in the game.

[Being]

TClifford wrote:

I am not in favor of food/drink to just survive. Too much micromanagement for me. But I can see a benefit to food/drink for buffs. The whole idea of PLO is a dynamic world where you create things to make it and ourselves better. What better for that then food/drink. Gives farmers a reason to farm. Gives gathers a reason to gather. Gives cooks and brewers reason to create.

I see this as a corner stone of the economy in the game.

So work on the micromanagement part rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Each consumable has its own bag linked to your bank. Food, water, feed, crafting resources, spell components, all link to your bank. So as you are wandering around the world you buy things and if you have a bag for that it goes straight to the bank. Need a bite to eat it comes from the bank through your food pouch. Need a dried peach pit for a spell it comes from the spell components pouch, assuming you had the prescience to buy one somewhere. Want to hammer on a new shield? Look to your craft pouch.

Exception examples: raw materials from resource gathering sites would still need to be taken to market. Crafted cgoods you don't want to use would have to be taken to market.

[DakSevkla]

Being wrote:

TClifford wrote:

I am not in favor of food/drink to just survive. Too much micromanagement for me. But I can see a benefit to food/drink for buffs. The whole idea of PLO is a dynamic world where you create things to make it and ourselves better. What better for that then food/drink. Gives farmers a reason to farm. Gives gathers a reason to gather. Gives cooks and brewers reason to create.

I see this as a corner stone of the economy in the game.

So work on the micromanagement part rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Each consumable has its own bag linked to your bank. Food, water, feed, crafting resources, spell components, all link to your bank. So as you are wandering around the world you buy things and if you have a bag for that it goes straight to the bank. Need a bite to eat it comes from the bank through your food pouch. Need a dried peach pit for a spell it comes from the spell components pouch, assuming you had the prescience to buy one somewhere. Want to hammer on a new shield? Look to your craft pouch.

Exception examples: raw materials from resource gathering sites would still need to be taken to market. Crafted cgoods you don't want to use would have to be taken to market.

I disagree with this idea. If a big part of PFO is that materials will actually have to travel, then a magic bag that links to your bank from anywhere will not work. If I need some sort of special metal to make a sword, but it isn't in my part of the world, I have to get it on a shipment, or go get it myself, or get it from someone who came from there.

I like the idea of Food and Drink as buffs. However, I think we should go further. Everyone since WoW has had this. Everyone. If PFO is going to be changing things up towards Sandbox so much, why not here?

Food and Drink give Buffs, but also heal statuses, and refresh your...Well, Refresh's.

If eaten/drank in an Inn or likewise establishment, perhaps more of a buff. Enough that people who are nearby in town will just go to the Inn to eat. Especially if the food is bought from the Inn.

[DropBearHunter]

The Shameless One** wrote:

DropBearHunter** wrote:

The Shameless One wrote:

Yes, let the bad mechanics stay in the past...I really don't want to be able to die of thirst in Pathfinder Online, there are enough things that can kill you already.

no one is asking for bad hunger and thirst mechanics

also no one has asked that people actually die from hunger and thirst, yet.

If you read this thread they actually do.

this comment is pretty worthless without pointing at the suggestions you think are bad.

Dismissing the entire discussion is not constructive.

as for dying from it: I must have missed the bits where people ask for characters to die from hunger, will you kindly point me to it?

** sorted the quotes to save tags

[Acobar]

Why not have a small penalty for not having eaten (say -2 con, or a variable number of penalties depending on the level of hunger, such as perception, willpower, etc), but all foods reduce hunger, but depending on the type of food, when 'full', it will also give a certain boost (such as 5% travel speed, or +2 con or perception or whatever, depending on the meal)

[Trikk]

I think food and drink might actually be mandatory for a game like this, where characters like monks probably don't need much in terms of gear. They have to carry something of value or the whole risk vs reward scheme of a full PvP game gets ruined.

[TreavorQuix]

I think you guys are missing the biggest opportunity Breweries! if there are thirst mechanics why not have a brewing profession would also buff the farmers end of the economy and maybe open up brew parties in town squares or inside of inns so a thirst mechanic would need this as far as hunger i think it could be a good mechanic if its not implemented with too much need like eating once a day i saw an idea for inn,homemade etc kinds of food i think that would be one of the best ways to go about it just as long as you dont have to eat constantly.

[The Shameless One]

DropBearHunter wrote:

The Shameless One** wrote:

DropBearHunter** wrote:

The Shameless One wrote:

Yes, let the bad mechanics stay in the past...I really don't want to be able to die of thirst in Pathfinder Online, there are enough things that can kill you already.

no one is asking for bad hunger and thirst mechanics

also no one has asked that people actually die from hunger and thirst, yet.

If you read this thread they actually do.

this comment is pretty worthless without pointing at the suggestions you think are bad.

Dismissing the entire discussion is not constructive.

as for dying from it: I must have missed the bits where people ask for characters to die from hunger, will you kindly point me to it?

** sorted the quotes to save tags

One person wanted his paladin to die from thirst and starvation because he couldn't find his way out from as dungeon... I'm sure that you are able to find the correct post.

[Richter Bones]

TreavorQuix wrote:

I think you guys are missing the biggest opportunity Breweries! if there are thirst mechanics why not have a brewing profession would also buff the farmers end of the economy and maybe open up brew parties in town squares or inside of inns so a thirst mechanic would need this as far as hunger i think it could be a good mechanic if its not implemented with too much need like eating once a day i saw an idea for inn,homemade etc kinds of food i think that would be one of the best ways to go about it just as long as you dont have to eat constantly.

Beer dehydrates you. Would not solve your "thirst" issue.

[The Shameless One]

Richter Bones wrote:

TreavorQuix wrote:

I think you guys are missing the biggest opportunity Breweries! if there are thirst mechanics why not have a brewing profession would also buff the farmers end of the economy and maybe open up brew parties in town squares or inside of inns so a thirst mechanic would need this as far as hunger i think it could be a good mechanic if its not implemented with too much need like eating once a day i saw an idea for inn,homemade etc kinds of food i think that would be one of the best ways to go about it just as long as you dont have to eat constantly.

Beer dehydrates you. Would not solve your "thirst" issue.

Are you f%+&ing serious?!

I have read much dribble in my short stay on this here forum but this, this wins the grand prize.

[Misere]

Someone stole your funny bone?

[Being]

The Shameless One wrote:

...

One person wanted his paladin to die from thirst and starvation because he couldn't find his way out from as dungeon... I'm sure that you are able to find the correct post.

That would have been me. I'll not be running a Paladin, but chose a Paladin for the example because his alignment prohibits him from suicide. He cannot escape wherever he is so his one recourse is to stay alive as long as possible but recognize he will die of hunger and thirst. If there aren't yet any wizards to teleport him out of there and anyone who tries to help him will only join him in his prison there is only one way out and he otherwise can't take it.

So okay the example was construed and maybe a tad contrived but the question was being begged: somebody had to suggest tht characters can die from hunger and thirst. Had to be done, so I done it.

[TreavorQuix]

@richter in the dark ages many towns had to put alcohol in their water to keep it sanitary and the ancient Egyptians used beer as a way of preserving bread for food so high amounts of alcohol will dehydrate you but subtle beers would be useful in dungeons to keep the water clean.

@the shameless one why not have breweries they are an integral part of the fantasy genre

[Richter Bones]

The Shameless One wrote:

Richter Bones wrote:

TreavorQuix wrote:

I think you guys are missing the biggest opportunity Breweries! if there are thirst mechanics why not have a brewing profession would also buff the farmers end of the economy and maybe open up brew parties in town squares or inside of inns so a thirst mechanic would need this as far as hunger i think it could be a good mechanic if its not implemented with too much need like eating once a day i saw an idea for inn,homemade etc kinds of food i think that would be one of the best ways to go about it just as long as you dont have to eat constantly.

Beer dehydrates you. Would not solve your "thirst" issue.

Are you f~@*ing serious?!

I have read much dribble in my short stay on this here forum but this, this wins the grand prize.

This thread is far too serious for me. I have over stepped my boundaries.

[Being]

Not really, but some people are more serious about their beer than others.

[TreavorQuix]

i just think its something not to be overlooked seeing as inns plan to be a large part of the game just my opinion though

[Ace-of-Spades]

Firstly, last I checked beer was some 90%+ water...alcohol is just a diuretic.

I read the first page of this thread then skipped here because it is waaay too much debate to sift through. All I'll say is I completely despise hunger-thirst systems and I REALLY hope one doesn't find it's way into Pathfinder Online.

I don't really understand the reasoning behind the argument between eating/drinking for a buff or not eating/drinking for a debuff. If you want a hunger-thirst system that gives a constant debuff for not eating or drinking...why stop there? You're obviously desiring that for RP reasons and realism. Realism would be slow death from starvation and dehydration, not a meager nuisance in the form of a debuff. Let the buffs stack (even when offline) until your character dies. Silly right? I think it's better to "assume" your character constantly eats mediocre quality food and when they eat and drink at say an Inn or camp they get a buff for higher quality food/drink consumption.

[TreavorQuix]

@ace those are good points maybe the rp is taking it a bit to far for an mmo but maybe instead of just eating smoked eel and gaining +5 str maybe there can be a plethora of buffs.

Such as buying a round at the inn gives a charisma buff, cooking a meal can give some sort of buff, perhaps throwing feast could give somesort of settlement buff. im not sure just throwing out ideas but just some kind of different buffs not just buffs for eating but rather doing different things with said food/drink.

I think though you have to include it in some facet so that cooks and inn keepers etc can have a decent economy rather than everything be practically worthless due to not really using it

[Being]

Enhancing the productivity of a settlement by providing feasts and holidays sounds like a very good train of thought in the making.

[TreavorQuix]

perhaps feast thrown for settlements could give the pc's a stat buff and the npc workers a speed buff on thier working so that when building a city throwing feast for the workers often will allow them to build faster

possibly have feast to celebrate either victory/peace in wartime that would give some buffs im not sure im tired and lacking imagination currently need coffeh