Hey guys, I'm looking at the Duelist prestige class and love the idea of a dexterity based swordsman sort of dancing around the battlefield and dishing out tons of damage quickly.
My question is, what's best for jumping into this prestige class? I can see a Human Fighter being a good option, given the free +2 to any stat and all the feats, but that seems boring at the same time. A rogue wouldn't be an awful choice, given the sneak attack damage would stack and all, but what else is there to choose from that might help this the most? I know there's a third-party Shwashbuckler class, but I haven't really looked into it any.
Is it any good?
What do you suggest?
Well, Monk isn't a terrible idea now that they have done the changes to flurry of blows.
You can start with 8 levels of Sohei, gain weapon training in thrown weapons and use a dagger in melee, gaining two extra attacks on your full attacks. If you don't like daggers there is also spears, (if you are really crazy, pick up a small reach weapon and go with polearms)or even go with another flavor of monk and use Snake style for piercing damage with your fists.
Alchemist/Vivisectionist is cool for some drinking powers to add flavor, and mutagens or cognatogens can really help your statistics.
Urban Barbarians can rage for higher Dex and have Full BAB as well as some rage powers that might be nice.
Magus is good too, but if you are going with this, you would be probably better off sticking with it. The Kensai is what you are looking for.
Finally, If you still want to be a fighter, look up the Lore Warden. Aside from a 4 level dip in another class and weapon master getting you weapon training early, Lore Warden is a great investment.
Also, There's the guide.
i had fun building an aldori swordlord (fighter) 4/MoMs monk 2/aldori sword lord (PRC) 9/duelist (PRC) 5 for a thread a while back. it was the dueling-est idea i'd heard.
fighting defensively brings the total AC up to ~54 with good BAB and middling saves, and with archon and crane styles you can autocancel an attack toward yourself or an ally for free. y'also get the neat features from all classes mentioned.
freehand fighter makes a very good mesh you get all sorts of bonuses for not having something in that other hand, which is requires as a duelist, which, IMO, makes a better duelist.
Duelist! :) I'm a fencer so naturally I've always been interested in the Duelist. I've statted up duelist a number of different ways. Essentially you are looking to enter duelist by level 9 at the absolute latest so avoid any half BAB classes.
There are a bunch of combinations that work and I have stats for many of these up to at least level 13.
Barbarian (Urban Barbarian)
Fighter (Free Hand Fighter or Lore Warden)
Magus (No Archetype)
Monk (Flowing Monk and/or Master of Many Styles)
Ninja (No Archetype)
Ranger (No Archetype)
There are many possible combinations. For a 3/4 BaB class you'll want to make sure that you go in levels of 4. Depending on what you choose you will go into Duelist between level 7 to 9.
Ranger 2 (for power attack with a low strength) and Barb 2 (for Rage and Uncanny Dodge) are both decent dips for full BAB classes but you can mix and match classes as desired.
Personally my three favorite entry points into duelist builds (in order)
Magus 4/Ninja 4
Ninja 4/Monk 4
Fighter 6
Examples of other entry point builds
Fighter 2/Ranger 2/ Barbarian 2
Monk 4/Fighter 3
Magus 8
Monk 8
(I can keep going, I have many of these)
Did you have a particular concept in mind? Were you looking for something more magical or straight forward sword fighting. I can post any build you might be interested in.
Well, I like magic just fine and all that, the Magus is a cool class, but I had a more simple concept in mind.
My question is: Have you played Assassin's Creed III? In the beginning of the game, you play as Haytham Kenway. He uses the hidden blade in his off-hand, yes, but a lot of the fighting he does is straight with his sword. It's not quite what a Duelist with a rapier might do, but it has a similar sort of deadly elegance to it and he's obviously more of a Dex based swordsman than a Strength based, with the quick footwork, spins and flourishes.
The first thought that came to mind when I started messing around with the idea of making him, or someone who fought in a similar manner, was the Duelist class.
I haven't looked at the Aldori Swordlord at all, so I'm don't know about it yet.
I'd like to reiterate that I'm aware that Haytham is not in fact, a Duelist. I just like the "style" with which he fights. It all screams gentleman.
Straight Ninja? Charisma for Ki and Gentleman. Wielding cool swords, being stealthy and delivering death strikes...
With two levels of the Master of Many Styles Monk, you can take two of the crane style's feats as bonus feats. Besides being better at fighting defensively, you can deflect one melee attack a round. That means that 1 on 1, it would be impossible for an opponent to hit you with a standard action attack. Works well with the duelist's parry, since you can deflect the higher BAB attack in an iterative so that you can get away with sacrificing a lesser attack for the parry. And since they give up flurry of blows, you should not feel obligated in the least to stick to monk weapons. So it makes a decent dip.
Here's a cheesy question: could a titan mauler barbarian use a two handed weapon for precision damage? The Jotungrip ability does say that it is treated like a onehanded weapon for certain bonuses to damage. Part of me wants to see this just to see how long until rocks fall.
I've been looking at the Aldori Swordlord Archetype and Prestige class. Do you guys think it's a worthwhile endeavor to take the archetype into the prestige class? They seem pretty cool, and would allow me to focus solely on a Dex build because of the Swordlord's ability to add Dex to damage with the Aldori Dueling Sword.
The defensive parry stacks as well, and the dazzling display buff is nice.
Interesting, I'm going to play around with that build a bit and see what I get.
Master of Many Styles 2/Weapon Master Fighter 3/Urban Barbarian 2 is a pretty neat way to qualify.
2 levels of MOMS Monk gets you Crane Style and Crane Wing, as well as Evasion and potentially wisdom to AC if you have high enough stats to forgo the max dex from armor and run with Bracers of Armor, adding Wisdom/Intelligence/Dexterity to AC. 3 Levels of Weapon Master qualifies you for Gloves of Dueling while getting you two bonus feats. Two levels of Urban Barbarian gets you Controlled Rage, Crowd Control, Uncanny Dodge and a Rage Power of your choice. And you only lose one point off of full BAB.
To me, this style of fighting means a DEX rather than STR build. And, if I'm going to build a melee character on DEX, I want something to enhance my damage so that I can keep up with the STR builds. There are four things I know of that qualify: Spellstrike, Sneak Attack, Deft Strike (the Aldori Swordlord Prestige Class 1st level class ability), and Dervish Dance.
Spellstrike This is the 2nd level Magus class ability.
Spellstrike depends on your ability to cast spells, channeling them through your weapon. Personally, if I had enough Magus levels to be useful, I wouldn't switch to a prestige class that dropped spellcasting. Once I've got my Magus mojo going, why would I want to drop it?
Sneak Attack Rogue, Ninja, Alchemist(Vivisectionist), and Assassin class ability.
Sneak Attack can add lots of damage to melee builds. It goes well with DEX-based builds, and is compatible with Dervish Dance and Deft Strike. Because it takes careful positioning or other tactical maneuvers to make Sneak Attack work, I like having a lot of SA or none at all. Fortunately, any build with the required BAB +6 for entry into Duelist will have 4d6 SA, which is enough to make those tactical maneuvers worth while. The only use of SA I would avoid is a “dip” - because SA always comes with a 3/4 BAB, every time you dip you lose BAB. So, pick one SA class and stick with it.
Deft Strike Add DEX to damage. This will require a level of Aldori Swordlord, which has fairly steep entry requirements:
Feats: Dazzling Display, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori dueling sword), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Aldori dueling sword).
Skills: Acrobatics 3 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Knowledge (nobility) 3 ranks, Sense Motive 3 ranks.
Also, you’ll have to use an Aldori Dueling Sword 1d8 (19-20 x2).
Personally, I wouldn’t take levels in Aldori Swordlord unless I intended to make a full commitment to intimidation as a strategy. Otherwise I’d feel like I’d wasted a feat on Dazzling Display and points in Intimidate.
Dervish Dance Add DEX to damage. This will require two feats (Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance) and two skill points in Perform:Dance. Also, you’ll have to use a scimitar 1d6 (18-20 x2).
Conclusion
So, how would I qualify for duelist? I’d combine Dervish Dance with either 8 levels of a single Sneak Attack class or 6 levels of full-BAB classes.
Master of Many Styles 2/Weapon Master Fighter 3/Urban Barbarian 2 is a pretty neat way to qualify.
2 levels of MOMS Monk gets you Crane Style and Crane Wing, as well as Evasion and potentially wisdom to AC if you have high enough stats to forgo the max dex from armor and run with Bracers of Armor, adding Wisdom/Intelligence/Dexterity to AC. 3 Levels of Weapon Master qualifies you for Gloves of Dueling while getting you two bonus feats. Two levels of Urban Barbarian gets you Controlled Rage, Crowd Control, Uncanny Dodge and a Rage Power of your choice. And you only lose one point off of full BAB.
Cool!
I would have to agree, mobile fighter or free hand fighter are probably best, with a possible dip into Master of Many Styles monk for Crane Style feats.
Master of Many Styles 2/Weapon Master Fighter 3/Urban Barbarian 2 is a pretty neat way to qualify.
2 levels of MOMS Monk gets you Crane Style and Crane Wing, as well as Evasion and potentially wisdom to AC if you have high enough stats to forgo the max dex from armor and run with Bracers of Armor, adding Wisdom/Intelligence/Dexterity to AC. 3 Levels of Weapon Master qualifies you for Gloves of Dueling while getting you two bonus feats. Two levels of Urban Barbarian gets you Controlled Rage, Crowd Control, Uncanny Dodge and a Rage Power of your choice. And you only lose one point off of full BAB.
Cool. How do you resolve the alignment conflict between barbarian and monk?
Mid-life crisis alignment change.
So you need to take Monk before Barbarian.
The problem with Monk of Many Styles is that you lose Flurry of Blows. If you want to keep Flurry then I like the Flowing Monk archetype. So choose your fighting style - Either a scimitar with the Dervish Dancer feats or a use a siangham with the agile enchantment with your flurry.
Based on what the Original poster wrote I'd go with Monk 4/ Fighter 3.
If you want to flurry go with Flowing Monk your feats might look something like this -
Crane Style
Crane Wing
Dodge
Improved Inititive
Improved Unarmed Strike
Mobility
Piranha Strike
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (Siangham)
You will also want to pick up a Siangham with the Agile enchantment as soon as you possibly can, probably level 6. Picking up Crane Riposte shortly after going into Duelist.
If you want to use Dervish Dance with a Master of Many Style Monk. Again Monk 4/ Fighter 3 your feats would look like this -
Crane Riposte
Crane Style
Crane Wing
Dervish Dance
Dodge
Improved Unarmed Strike
Mobility
Power Attack
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
In this build you get Dervish Dance at level 5.
No matter which build you go with your going to be adding Dex to damage around level 5-6 so that's close to a wash. Personally I like Flowing Monk just a little bit better as I like Redirection, Unbalancing Counter, and Flowing Dodge of the Flowing monk. However getting Crane Riposte at level 2 is simply awesome if you go Master of Many Styles. It is possible to combine the two archetypes but you lose the level 2 Crane Riposte, I do have such a build as a level 8 monk though.
@Hawktitan Can you build those feats in order? Thanks
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Hawktitan Can you build those feats in order? Thanks
Flowing Monk (Flurry of Blows with a siangham)
1) Dodge (Monk), Crane Style (Human), Weapon Finesse
3) Piranha Strike
5) Weapon Focus (Fighter), Improved Initiative
6) Crane Wing (Fighter)
7) Mobility
Styles Monk (Dervish Dancer with scimitar)
1) Dodge (Human), Crane Style, Crane Wing (Monk)
2) Crane Riposte (Monk)
3) Weapon Finesse
5) Dervish Dance, Weapon Focus (Fighter)
6) Power Attack (Fighter)
7) Mobility
A couple of these can be switched around based on preference, but this should give a good outline.
A Paladin Duelist is an interesting thing certainly. Probably would place a high value on honor. This is one example where I might not go into Duelist as soon as possible, rather I'd wait until 8th level like I would a 3/4th BAB class.
Consider getting the Holy Tactitian archetype. As teamwork bonous feats pick two different ones that cover different situations. I'd pick either Pack Attack or Escape Route as my first teamwork feat and Outflank as my second Teamwork feat. With the position of Teamwork feats and Guide the Battle everyone will likely have flanking bonouses after the first round. Your normal feats would be pretty basic and inflexible until make the transition into duelist, at which point you could pick up the Crane Style feats or whatever else you prefer.
The spells are nice. Especially consider the swift action spells, like Grace and the Litany spells.
I could see this working rather well. Ask yourself why switch to duelist instead of continueing in Paladin and if the answer is 'I want to be a Duelist' that is prefectly acceptable :)
Mid-life crisis alignment change.So you need to take Monk before Barbarian.
Yep, you have to go Monk, then Barbarian. The reverse does not work. Easy if you're starting at a higher level, more interesting if you're playing from level 1.
Possible Feat Lineup(Human)
1)(Monk)Crane Style, Weapon Finesse, Dodge
2)(Monk)Crane Wing
3)(Fighter)Dervish Dance, Power Attack
4)(Fighter)Mobility
5)(Fighter)Weapon Focus: Scimitar
6)(Barbarian)
7)(Barbarian)Extra Rage
Picking up Crane Riposte at 9 once you hit duelist.
Whatever you do, I would go for Dervish Dance. Adding dex to damage is huge for your damage output.
I ran a duelist for some time.. I know it sounds simple but...
Fighter 4/Rogue 2/Duelist X
Cad archetype works well for the fighter, Rogue swashbuckler is muh
the main thing you have to remember is Duelist is not a class or a archetype.. it's a mindset..
my Magus(Bladebound/Kensai) us a duelist is all but name...
1)(Monk)Crane Wing, Crane Style, Dodge
2)(Monk)Crane Riposte
3)(Fighter)Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance
4)(Fighter)Mobility
5)(Fighter)Power Attack
6)(Barbarian)
7)(Barbarian)Weapon Focus
Better feat progression IMO.
Here's a plan to be useful right out of the box:
1st - Good HP, Hit with scimitar
2nd - Good HP, Hit and damage with scimitar
3rd - Crane Wing defense
4th - Crane Riposte defense
My preferred path to Duelist
1 BAB+1 Fighter (Weapon Master): Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility
2 BAB+2 Fighter (Weapon Master): Dervish Dance
3 BAB+2 Monk (Master of Many Styles): Crane Style, Crane Wing
4 BAB+3 Monk (Master of Many Styles): Crane Riposte
5 BAB+4 Fighter (Weapon Master): Step Up
6 BAB+5 Ranger (Guide):
7 BAB+6 Ranger (Guide): Power Attack, Following Step
8 BAB+7 Duelist (or Fighter for Weapon Specialization)
9 BAB+8 Duelist
*Weapon Master gets Weapon Training early.
*Master of Many Styles gets Crane Style
*Ranger gets Power Attack with no strength requirement
*Guide gets Ranger Focus instead of a favored enemy.
*The Step Up chain is replaceable with whatever you prefer: Weapon Focus, Spring Attack, etc.
I know that Barbarian is popular, but I don't like the monk/barbarian conflict. This version can be Lawful his whole career.
I like that build, Blueluck. I'm probably going to go with the Step Up chain, as it's a handy feat to have. However, I will be looking around at other possible substitutes.
I agree with the Monk/Barbarian conflict, not just in alignment alone, but the very concept of a Monk/Barbarian seems off to me. I don't deny that it's a viable option, but even so...
Anyways, thanks for this! All these suggestions are turning out to be super helpful!
|
I ran a duelist for some time.. I know it sounds simple but...
Fighter 4/Rogue 2/Duelist X
Cad archetype works well for the fighter, Rogue swashbuckler is muh
the main thing you have to remember is Duelist is not a class or a archetype.. it's a mindset..
my Magus(Bladebound/Kensai) us a duelist is all but name...
Shome mishtake shurely....
Fighter4/Rogue2 has a BAB of +5, not enough to be a duelist.
I suspect you mean Rogue3, as that is a better choice than Fighter5.
The problem with Monk of Many Styles is that you lose Flurry of Blows.
Not that important if you are not going monk most of the way with this class anyway, which is pretty much a given with duelist. You are better off with a rapier or other high threat-range weapon than you are with a monk weapon and maybe one extra attack.
I ran a duelist for some time.. I know it sounds simple but...
Fighter 4/Rogue 2/Duelist X
That's the route I am going in one game, the party lacked both a front-liner and a rogue at the time I joined them, so the duelist option looked reasonable to me.
The problem with Monk of Many Styles is that you lose Flurry of Blows.Not that important if you are not going monk most of the way with this class anyway, which is pretty much a given with duelist. You are better off with a rapier or other high threat-range weapon than you are with a monk weapon and maybe one extra attack.
That's the route I am going in one game, the party lacked both a front-liner and a rogue at the time I joined them, so the duelist option looked reasonable to me.I ran a duelist for some time.. I know it sounds simple but...
Fighter 4/Rogue 2/Duelist X
2 attacks, flurry and ki.
Realise that you'd need to be fighter 5 or rogue 3, 4/2 is only 5 BaB. I'd still prefer Ninja over rogue though. Ninja gives a ki pool that can be used for an extra strike with any weapon and I really like uncanny dodge (Ninja 4) because being flat footed really sucks and your normally impressive AC suddenly isn't. A ring can cover evasion if you really want it later.
What Dabbler said.
I don't intend to utilize much from the Monk aside from Crane Style and the added AC. I'm focusing on using the Dervish Dance feature and going into Duelist, I won't have much use for Flurry of Blows.
Here's a plan to be useful right out of the box:
1st - Good HP, Hit with scimitar
2nd - Good HP, Hit and damage with scimitar
3rd - Crane Wing defense
4th - Crane Riposte defenseMy preferred path to Duelist
1 BAB+1 Fighter (Weapon Master): Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility
2 BAB+2 Fighter (Weapon Master): Dervish Dance
3 BAB+2 Monk (Master of Many Styles): Crane Style, Crane Wing
4 BAB+3 Monk (Master of Many Styles): Crane Riposte
5 BAB+4 Fighter (Weapon Master): Step Up
6 BAB+5 Ranger (Guide):
7 BAB+6 Ranger (Guide): Power Attack, Following Step
8 BAB+7 Duelist (or Fighter for Weapon Specialization)
9 BAB+8 Duelist*Weapon Master gets Weapon Training early.
*Master of Many Styles gets Crane Style
*Ranger gets Power Attack with no strength requirement
*Guide gets Ranger Focus instead of a favored enemy.
*The Step Up chain is replaceable with whatever you prefer: Weapon Focus, Spring Attack, etc.I know that Barbarian is popular, but I don't like the monk/barbarian conflict. This version can be Lawful his whole career.
Maybe Ranger Freebooter is better than Guide. While the Freebooter Bane is only +1 to attack and damage with a move action, you can do it at will. As opposed to the Guide's +2 with a swift once per day.
I've seen another build that sacrifices damage (Dervish, Riposte, Ranger, Power Attack) for Snake Fang & Deflect Arrows. I agree with Blueluck on the importance of damage.
cheers
cheers
I was about to say something about the Guide when you posted that. I'm not sure that it's entirely necessary.
I was about to say something about the Guide when you posted that. I'm not sure that it's entirely necessary.
It's about damage and getting Power Attack. With Freebooter and Power Attack, you can double your damage mod before magic between levels 4 and 7. And it continues to scale. It's all about the damage
I understand, but isn't there another option?
I'm leaning toward the Freebooter route more than the Guide route, regardless.
Now I have a question about Feats, particularly in the Cleave path.
Isn't there a Feat that you can take that allows you to take a 5-foot step after killing someone with Cleave to go on to another target? Or something along those lines?
I know there's a Dwarf-specific Feat that is similar to that, but I could have sworn there was also a generic Combat Feat for it as well.
My preferred path to Duelist
1 BAB+1 Fighter (Weapon Master): Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility
2 BAB+2 Fighter (Weapon Master): Dervish Dance
3 BAB+2 Monk (Master of Many Styles): Crane Style, Crane Wing
4 BAB+3 Monk (Master of Many Styles): Crane Riposte
5 BAB+4 Fighter (Weapon Master): Step Up
6 BAB+5 Ranger (Guide):
7 BAB+6 Ranger (Guide): Power Attack, Following Step
8 BAB+7 Duelist (or Fighter for Weapon Specialization)
9 BAB+8 Duelist
Looking at level 8 in particular, I wouldn't be eligible for Weapon Specialization at that level simply because I don't have Weapon Focus yet. I could replace Step Up (as you suggested) with Weapon Focus and take my level in Fighter then for Weapon Specialization then, but I do really like the Step Up chain. I could replace Following Step with the prerequsite Step Up feat and then grab the next tier at level 9, though.
A slightly more bizarre version would be using the Emissary Cavalier. You get one of the necessary feats as a bonus feat, you can take the Horse Master feat to get a full level mount, and you can use a Lance as a one-handed (piercing) weapon while mounted. Whether or not that last point works is up to the GM. With a challenge up, and with your Duelist Precise Strike class feature, you deal your full level in damage.
I don't deny the viability, but I'm anti-mounted combat. I don't care for the Cavalier at all as a class and don't enjoy lances, either.
weird idea. Duelist using a light shield with a shield spike one handed.