Wizard: Feat question Shift+Dimensional Agility=?

[prometheus's_curse]

I wanted to know if a wizard that is conjuration sub-school teleportation could use the feat bellow with Shift. My guess is no because its not abundant step or dimension door, but it is "...as if using dimension door." So that is what gets me.

Feat:
Dimensional Agility
Teleportation does not faze you.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.

Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

[prometheus's_curse]

:(

[Dennis Baker]

You are not casting dimension door so alas... no.

[Nadalis]

What is the difference between casting dimensional door and doing something that allows you to use a dimensional door. I feel that if shift has the same limitation as dimensional door with regards to disorienting you and thereby ending your turn and then dimensional agility removes that disorientation "Teleportation does not faze you," it makes pretty good sense that dimensional agility removes the disorientation from both shift and dimension door.

So,
Shift is a supernatural ability that allows the caster to bend time and space "as if using dimension door" but with more limitations than the actual spell (distance, sight, and passengers which make sense since it is a 1st level ability) and still disorients the caster.

And,
Abundant Step is a supernatural ability that also allows the monk to bend time and space "as if using the spell dimension door" with only the limitation of passengers and it turns into a move action.

and you guys think that dimensional agility only applies to the actual spell "dimension door" and the supernatural ability "abundant step," but not the supernatural ability "shift." I feel that the descriptions of what is supposed to be happening in the supernatural abilities of abundant step and shift that it is silly to include one and not the other.

I started playing a teleportation specialist which is now 7th level. I have used the shift ability once. I have a really hard time seeing how the shift + dimensional agility feat could be too overpowered to not read it as RAI or even RAW.

[Brotato]

If you can't see how allowing a wizard to take a feat from level 1 that allows him to teleport as a swift action and then still have his move and standard action left to him is stronger than letting a monk get a single attack in or the caster of Dimension Door a single move, then I don't know what to tell you.

Just because you have used Shift only once doesn't mean it's weak. My own teleportation Wizard used it almost every encounter, to great effect. A personal favorite was after using Dimensional Steps to deposit my BSF next to an enemy spellcaster.

[Dennis Baker]

Nadalis wrote:

and you guys think that dimensional agility only applies to the actual spell "dimension door" and the supernatural ability "abundant step," but not the supernatural ability "shift." I feel that the descriptions of what is supposed to be happening in the supernatural abilities of abundant step and shift that it is silly to include one and not the other.

It's not a matter of "overpowered", it's just not the way the feat is written.

Abundant step is called out specifically in the prereqs for the feat.

[Drakkiel]

I have no experience with wizards and teleportation spells so....can someone point me to the page (or link) to where Shift: wouldn't allow someone to make the rest of their actions since its a swift action?

Again I have NO experience with teleportation effects :( so be nice

[HaraldKlak]

Drakkiel wrote:

I have no experience with wizards and teleportation spells so....can someone point me to the page (or link) to where Shift: wouldn't allow someone to make the rest of their actions since its a swift action?

Again I have NO experience with teleportation effects :( so be nice

It is in the dimension door text (bolded for your benefit):

Dimension Door wrote:

You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired - whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

[Brotato]

Drakkiel wrote:

I have no experience with wizards and teleportation spells so....can someone point me to the page (or link) to where Shift: wouldn't allow someone to make the rest of their actions since its a swift action?

Again I have NO experience with teleportation effects :( so be nice

To add on to what Harald posted, Shift says "...as Dimension Door..." in the rules text of the ability. This means that Shift follows all the rules for DD except where the text specifically changes them (such as distance, LOS requirement, etc). Shift doesn't mention anything about changing the rule in DD that ends all remaining actions, so Shift keeps that restriction.

[Grayfeather]

Dennis Baker wrote:

You are not casting dimension door so alas... no.

so imho either:

1: It doesn't work like casting dimension door so the round doesnt end after using it.

or

2: It works like casting dimension door so the feat works.

Either it works on way or another. Being they mentioned another class skill its clear the intent was there to allow it to work.

[Cheapy]

Since it's fairly relevant, I'd appreciate it if people would FAQ this post. It's trying to get to the bottom of whether "cast" means just spells or includes SLAs. There's a lot of funktastic corner cases there.

[Fromper]

Cheapy wrote:

Since it's fairly relevant, I'd appreciate it if people would FAQ this post. It's trying to get to the bottom of whether "cast" means just spells or includes SLAs. There's a lot of funktastic corner cases there.

Clicked and requested FAQ. Also, I clicked the FAQ button on the first post of this thread. Everyone join in!

[Cheapy]

Grayfeather wrote:

Dennis Baker wrote:

You are not casting dimension door so alas... no.

so imho either:

1: It doesn't work like casting dimension door so the round doesnt end after using it.

or

2: It works like casting dimension door so the feat works.

Either it works on way or another. Being they mentioned another class skill its clear the intent was there to allow it to work.

There are more possibilities than just those two. One such possibility is that since the ability is a supernatural ability, you don't even meet the prerequisites of "casting" dimension. Since you don't cast supernatural abilities. And it's not abundant step.

Shift has the drawbacks of dimension door since it's an ability that emulates the dimension doorspell.

[LazarX]

Nadalis wrote:

What is the difference between casting dimensional door and doing something that allows you to use a dimensional door. I feel that if shift has the same limitation as dimensional door with regards to disorienting you and thereby ending your turn and then dimensional agility removes that disorientation "Teleportation does not faze you," it makes pretty good sense that dimensional agility removes the disorientation from both shift and dimension door.

You asked for a rules question and you got a rules answer.. If you want a variance, ask your GM. If you're playing PFS, you're SOL on that. The Dimensional Agility tree was written after the core books and the APG, if the devs had meant to include that ability, they would have written that in. They wanted something as a pre-req that would kick in at a certain level, not First.

[Peter Stewart]

I'm of the opinion that they work together, as do all other similar teleport effects that function as dimension door.

That said, it is possible that I am in the minority opinion.

[Canthin]

LazarX wrote:

Nadalis wrote:

What is the difference between casting dimensional door and doing something that allows you to use a dimensional door. I feel that if shift has the same limitation as dimensional door with regards to disorienting you and thereby ending your turn and then dimensional agility removes that disorientation "Teleportation does not faze you," it makes pretty good sense that dimensional agility removes the disorientation from both shift and dimension door.

You asked for a rules question and you got a rules answer.. If you want a variance, ask your GM. If you're playing PFS, you're SOL on that. The Dimensional Agility tree was written after the core books and the APG, if the devs had meant to include that ability, they would have written that in. They wanted something as a pre-req that would kick in at a certain level, not First.

I'm in both camps. I think that the feat should work with "dimension door-like abilities" including Shift, but not in changing the requirements of the feat. So while you have a dimension door-like ability at 1st level that would work with the feat, you still can't take the feat until you can cast the dimension door spell (or are a 12th level monk). So the prerequisite still kicks in at the appropriate level, you just have more options to use it with. As a 7th level conjuration (teleportation) wizard, you would be able to take the feat (assuming you took Dimension Door as one of your 4th level spells), and that feat would work with Dimension Door and Shift.

[The Golux]

Here's a thing - If a wizard with Shift later learns Dimension Door and then takes Dimensional Agility, does it apply to Shift?

[Nadalis]

Sean K Reynolds (developer) with regards to "Shift" stated
It works exactly like the dimension door spell.
Except you can do it at 1st level.
And it's a swift action.
And it doesn't provoke AOOs.
And you can use it a bunch of times per day.
So that's pretty badass.
Not being able to take an action afterward is a minor drawback by comparison.

So, I read that to mean: if you qualify for the pre-requisite, meaning you are 7th level and can cast dimension door you can take dimensional agility and have it apply to "Shift" since it works "exactly" the same.

[Cheapy]

Except for all the significant differences he listed, yes, 'exactly'.

[Nadalis]

Yes I agree, "except for the significant differences." I don't see how any of the differences would preclude the ability from working in conjunction with (but not being a prerequisite for) dimensional agility.

[Dennis Baker]

Quote:

Pink lemonaide is lemonaide so either:

1. Pink lemonaide is yellow.

or

2. Pink lemonaide is not lemonaide.

EDIT: I had a reply posted, but this is just going to drag into yet another stupid debate about this. Forum search has a rich history of this exact discussion. The subject has been broached about 15 times and each time the same points get beaten back and forth.

Search is your friend.

In a nutshell: Using an Su is not 'casting'.

[Cheapy]

Speaking of those previous discussions...

Here's a post in one such thread where the author explains how it was originally pretty open to everything and was later heavily restricted by Paizo in development.

Here's another topic where the author explains a few other abilities (specifically shadowdancer's shadowjump and the horizon walker's (Sp) of dimension door).

Whether it works with the (Sp) is a question I raised in the thread I linked above asking for FAQs.

The second thread in particular has 17 FAQ clicks.

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

Sorry for the thread Necro, but has this been answered yet?

Thank you
-Hexen

[Dennis Baker]

Many times.

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

Dennis Baker wrote:

Many times.

Linky please, google-fu is failing me. :D

[Dennis Baker]

Paizo's forum search works much better for searching the forums than Google.

Various threads

[AceMcGrudy]

As long as you wait until you can actually cast D-door I see no reason you couldn't use this feat with the shifting. I am using it in a home game (Had to wait until even higher level, doing a Mystic Theurge)

No way you could take it at first level, that would be ridiculous.