My GM is starting a campaign where mortals cannot use spells or spell-like abilities or make magical items.
So we are playing in a very low-magic world.
My question is how does a monk fit into this world? I was thinking that a lot of his abilities become a lot more useful when they can't be replaced by a first lvl spell (slowfall). Wouldn't a monk be a lot more powerful in this world setting than he normally is or am I missing something?
My GM is starting a campaign where mortals cannot use spells or spell-like abilities or make magical items.
So we are playing in a very low-magic world.
My question is how does a monk fit into this world? I was thinking that a lot of his abilities become a lot more useful when they can't be replaced by a first lvl spell (slowfall). Wouldn't a monk be a lot more powerful in this world setting than he normally is or am I missing something?
Wait, so monsters have spells?
Dragons have only breath weapons, Ogre Magi can only fly and regenerate (no magic spells), etc?So your enemies are humaniods only?
If so, Monks will still be weak, but won't be dwarfed as badly.
Now if the DM make some terrain that favos the monk (lots of pit falls where the party needs to go into, the others have climb down but monk can jump down) then maybe that might help.
So classes are Barbarian, Fighter, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Rogue (Ninja is even stronger), Monk, Alchemist (it isn't magic)?
Because Rangers and Paladins have magic.
Well, Rangers and Paladins can survive without their spells. There are even a few archetypes that do exactly that.
Problem is, the game assumes you have some magic items with you (including stat boosting items, cloak of resistance and magic weapons), so pretty much anything above CR 8 would be a nightmare.
Martial types will be worse off than casters assuming casters are not banned.
If the ki remains the monk at least can heal himself. But as he is very gear dependand he'll still be hurt.
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I'm not sure how you get to this opinion, assuming 20pt builds, the monk can get an ac of 10+3(dex)+3(wis)+1(dodge) to start, not including any racial modifiers.
Weapons, no one is bypassing all the DR of things except for the monk in this situation, the Barbarian and warrior will have to constantly switch weapons to adapt.
The fighter ac? 10+2(dex)+shield(2)+chainmail(6)+dodge(1) ends up ahead for sure ac wise, but the monk will always beat their saves or be close, except for the superstitious barbarian.
The lack of magical gear will favor the monk as they level and start fighting things with DR. The monk will end up with some of the better weapons in the game and AC will kick up a good bit.
lvl 20, the monk will have all ki stuff going, bypass all DR and be rocking 2d8s, and immunities to damn near everything.
The lack of magic in the world makes the monk better than before by comparison, because he will be doing so much more than the fighter and barbarian.
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There's this game, called "Iron Heroes". It is on the D20 system, and is set up for what you want. It would be far better to take a system set up for super low magic, rather than try and make Pathfinder warp to fit. Put the round peg in the round hole.
I think it will be great, to play a monk becomes daring and cool and you face the possibility of being very strong once you level a bit. The weaknesses of the classes will stick out though, because magic can't be used to get around it.
Remove almost all DR though dm.
My GM is starting a campaign where mortals cannot use spells or spell-like abilities or make magical items.Martial types will be worse off than casters assuming casters are not banned.Huh?
LOL
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Naturally without gear we'll be fighting things way below our EPL after awhile.
Only mortals are screwed, outsiders can still use magic.
We're doing 30 point builds my array before racial mods was 17str 15dex 15con 10int 15wis 7char
Casters aren't allowed neither is the Alchemist. Alchemy is still around, but there are no advanced sciences (if you view the alchemist as more science-y). Consequently Gunslingers aren't allowed either
My GM does have Iron Heroes but we want to see what happens in the pathfinder system if you took all the magic away from the PCs
When I asked how the monk would fair, I meant in comparison to the rest of the (theoretical) party.
I'm not sure how you get to this opinion, assuming 20pt builds, the monk can get an ac of 10+3(dex)+3(wis)+1(dodge) to start, not including any racial modifiers.
Weapons, no one is bypassing all the DR of things except for the monk in this situation, the Barbarian and warrior will have to constantly switch weapons to adapt.
The fighter ac? 10+2(dex)+shield(2)+chainmail(6)+dodge(1) ends up ahead for sure ac wise, but the monk will always beat their saves or be close, except for the superstitious barbarian.
The lack of magical gear will favor the monk as they level and start fighting things with DR. The monk will end up with some of the better weapons in the game and AC will kick up a good bit.
lvl 20, the monk will have all ki stuff going, bypass all DR and be rocking 2d8s, and immunities to damn near everything.
The lack of magic in the world makes the monk better than before by comparison, because he will be doing so much more than the fighter and barbarian.
Ok that's what I was thinking, but the lack of heals in our game made me want to invest in a lot of defensive feats. I was thinking something along these lines:
1 :Endurance,Diehard|Combat Reflexes
2 :|Improved Grapple
3 :Defensive Combat Training|
4 :|
5 :Toughness|
6 :|Improved Bull Rush
7 :Deflect Arrows|
8 :|
9 :Great Fortitude|
10:|Medusa's Wrath
11:Iron Will|
12:|
13:Lightning Reflexes|
14:|Spring Attack
15:Strike Back|
16:|
17:Blind Fight|
18:|Improved Critical
19:Snatch Arrows|
20:|
Am I gimping myself too much on damage here or does it not even matter?
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Considering what's going to happen in this campaign, my own recommendation is a human barbarian with superstitious rage power (and the human favored class going to it) and invulnerable rager.
In this kind of game, it'll be a power house, and as the to hit of NPCs gets up and the ac of the PCs falls (it's going to without magic) that DR will be more and more valuable. And with superstitious, you'll be able to resist anything and everything just about. (although if you want to throw in two levels of rogue for evasion that's not a bad idea either)
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Everything is going to depend on what the GM throws at you for encounters. The monk can do fine if the GM keeps in mind that the characters don't have the necessary gear to compete in a normal campaign.
How are you guys going to handle healing? Non-magical healing is quite slow and this will probably limit you to a very small number of encounters per day unless the fights are quite one-sided.
Basically an all muggle campaign could be okay for a one shot game but the game just assumes a massive amount of magic in order for anything to really work particularly well.
Honestly looking at something like iron heroes or 4e with only martial power sources is a much better bet than using PF.
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Martial types will be worse off than casters assuming casters are not banned.
Only if they play style has only 1 encounter/day. Without magic items a cleric or oracle will fare well, a wizard will be extremely squishy and use most of his spell to survive.
Fly is not so good if your AC is in the 15-20 range after using your spells.
Mo magic items mean no scrolls, no wands and so on, so your defense and offense will be fueled by your limited spells.
My GM is starting a campaign where mortals cannot use spells or spell-like abilities or make magical items.Martial types will be worse off than casters assuming casters are not banned.Huh?
I wonder if I even read the opening post now. oops. :)
The GM can't just use any encounters, and he will have to adjust the since it assume magic items will be in play. There are other threads that cover this.
No matter what class you play I'd take the godless healing feat.
Someone mentioned Iron Heroes upthread. I have played it, and I think that might work for what he wants to do.
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Beside the lack of people casting spells at level 1-2 the absence of magic items will make little difference. In a magic using game if the GM use WBL a level 1-2 party will have very few magic items.
By level 3 you would see the first permanent magic item and/or wand, so the group CR would be about 1 point lower than intended. People capable to use heavy armor would compensate the lack of AC enhancing items purchasing better armor.
By level 5+ the lack of magic items would start to hurt, with the group being about 2 CR less powerful than intended and the power difference will increase as you increase in levels.
The main problems are:
- the low rate of healing (that can be somewhat ameliorate with mundane skills and some alchemical substance);
- incapability to remove some condition barring divine intervention;
- some enemy becoming way more powerful;
- huge disparity in AC between classes. A sword and shield fighter in heavy armor will have a way better AC than a rogue in light armor, even if the rogue has a very high dexterity;
- huge benefits from any ability giving DR;
- the need to use feats to enhance AC, ST and hit points to compensate some critter power and mundane dangers like disease.
Any character in a similar setting should have a ranged weapon and use it as much as possible against enemies without ranged attacks.
There are spelless ranger archetypes that will work very well and the 3rd party spelless range will be extremely powerful.
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Well, barbarian Superstition is penalty-free; you don't risk accidentally resisting a healing spell :P
I think the monk would actually have a niche as DR-penetrator, since he's one of the few non-caster classes that get it naturally. Take a good look at Crane Style though, I think that's probably the best nonmagical defensive strategy for monks.
Wouldn't you get hit forever and always as you level, since isn't the only way to up your AC bracers of armor as a monk?
This pretty much applies to everybody, but mostly the monk, since they can only get about 18 or so (with dodge) unless they dump like crazy. It seems like that AC barely helps around lvl 4.
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I would say a monk would fare average or above average in this kind of campaign. With magic items being rare, all of the melee based classes will advance at about the same rate. Fighters and others that wear heavy armor will probably have the high AC, but that comes at the mobility trade off. Still, a monk that focuses on his AC would have the same level of defense because the fighter's armor is not going to get enchanted. No one's damage is really going to go up by much without magic weapons. The monk's damage will actually improve over time. The monk will also have a lot of abilities such as poison and disease immunity and healing that other characters won't have access to.
If I were doing a build in this game I would max out Wis and Dex to get the best AC possible, not to mention bump up your saves. Pick up weapon finesse and you should be hitting at about the same rate as a fighter or paladin. Without Str your damage is not going to be great, but you can make up for that with lots of attacks. Also, Stunning Fist is going to be your friend. Working your way towards Spring Attack would be a good choice as well.
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Wouldn't you get hit forever and always as you level, since isn't the only way to up your AC bracers of armor as a monk?
This pretty much applies to everybody, but mostly the monk, since they can only get about 18 or so (with dodge) unless they dump like crazy. It seems like that AC barely helps around lvl 4.
With a 30 point build there is little need to dump anything.
With a 30 point build there is little need to dump anything.Wouldn't you get hit forever and always as you level, since isn't the only way to up your AC bracers of armor as a monk?
This pretty much applies to everybody, but mostly the monk, since they can only get about 18 or so (with dodge) unless they dump like crazy. It seems like that AC barely helps around lvl 4.
I'd more say- there is NO need to dump anything.
I played a low magic campaign, where we had no healing magic. Here's how the game went:
We'd have an encounter. Then we'd have to rest 1-2 days while we healed up. If there was a random encounter during the resting period it started all over again. We spent about 90% of our time resting and doing Heal checks.
Fun, Fun, FUN!!!
not.
I would consider a Dual Talented Human Sensei Monk for the inspire courage ability as buffs are going to be rare in a no magic game and/or see if spell like abilities are an option because if so a Qinggong monk could be made to resemble a Conanesque (old Conan not the new one) Sorcerer which could be a lot of fun.
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If its default monsters with the bell curve of ever increasing DR, don't play a monk. The thing thats worse than pc death is your melee pc hitting with every attack and not affecting the enemy. Saw this in the game I'm in over the last few sessions. Thats why I decided to stop controlling the npc for a bit cause it was downright depressing 3/4 of the time. Strength wasn't even the dump stat. Worthless at later levels. If this isn't the case, then I recommend a skirmishing monk. Emphasis on whittling down the enemy over time and it will take alot of time. If you are intent on playing a monk, the sohei archetype is pretty cool. If your dm allows, play the oriental adventures sohei. Plenty of fun.
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Ki Pool: Monks typically have problems bypassing DR with their unarmed strikes, forcing them to rely on weapons to deal with many forms of DR. We have decided to add a new ability to the Ki Pool monk class feature. At 7th level, a monk's unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, so long as he has at least 1 point remaining in his ki pool.
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Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
From here: Monkeying Around.
So:
4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
7th level, a monk's unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, so long as he has at least 1 point remaining in his ki pool.
At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
Better than other character in a no magic world, he would be the only one with a magic weapon.
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I remember a low-ish magic campaign in 2nd ed. Our principal source of healing was goodberries; healing more than 13hp per day (goodberry+natural) wasn't likely, and an average of 16 goodberries were made per day, with a shelf life of 7 days. And the whole party had to live off that.
So yeah, after a serious encounter we needed quite some time to lick our wounds.