RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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For those of you who didn't catch it, the OP took his question over to the Ask James Jacobs thread. Here's James' response:
I can't recall if we've talked about this in Elves of Golarion or somewhere like that, but if I recall correctly, elves mature to "teenage" years slower than humans, but faster than any other time in their lives, then slow down progressively as they grow older, so that they actually spend several decades as "teens". As they grow older, they don't get all wrinkly; they just grow more thin and fragile looking.
Elves raised in human societies are known as the Forlorn, because it really depresses you to watch your childhood friends grow old and die of old age before you even hit puberty.
There was a variant of age rules in regards to how quickly elves mature. I think it was in masters of the wild. Put the starting age earlier by a number of decades. I thought about it for a bit. Only to be interrupted by the owner of the book tearing out the relevant pages.
I remember that ploy. That book was amusing.
As for the physical maturity, I don't care how long lived elves are, if it takes longer then 40 years for them to be of breeding age then they are a doomed species.
That would be an excellent reason for elves to be reluctant to go to war, wouldn't it?
Besides, D&D doesn't reflect generational ecology effectively in any way. Orcs, Kobolds, Goblins, and other beginner fodder creatures would long since have been driven extinct in any long-standing setting.
As for the physical maturity, I don't care how long lived elves are, if it takes longer then 40 years for them to be of breeding age then they are a doomed species.That would be an excellent reason for elves to be reluctant to go to war, wouldn't it?
Besides, D&D doesn't reflect generational ecology effectively in any way. Orcs, Kobolds, Goblins, and other beginner fodder creatures would long since have been driven extinct in any long-standing setting.
Pretty sure all of those breed so fast that rabbits look at them and go "Woah. Dude. Slow down, 'kay?"
Things can't gestate if you systematically wipe out the breeding population. Putting them to the sword means no bunny imitations.
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An elf raised by human could possibly start adventuring before 100. But, he should also lose the elf weapon proficiencies. Thats something that is learned, not innate. If he isn't raised the elven way, he shouldn't learn the elven stuff.
Similarly, a dwarf raised among humans shouldn't gain the Hatred, Defensive Training, and Weapon Familiarity abilities, as they are learned as well.
Alternate racial abilities are a good way to handle this. Swap out Weapon Familiarity for Arcane Focus (town wizard took a shine to the kid), Fleet-Footed (if you don't mind losing Keen Senses as well) or Spirit of the Waters (if the human town was appropriately located).
Consider making him a Hafling Wizard instead. That would SO work out with a Chelaxian background.This topic looks like it may have quite an impact on my Elf Wizard. His background (mostly to easily introduce him in the middle of ad adventure in Council of Thieves) is that he was captured and enslaved by Cheliax nobility when he was young, and after years of abuse he was sold and trained as a wizard's apprentice, and became a promising Conjurer. (Then he wanted out, snuck around a mansion he was visiting, ran into the PCs and decided to join them and escape.)
But how does that work for an elf? If it takes 80 years to go from child to adult, no Cheliax nobleman is going to wait for that. Should he have been (almost) adult when he was abducted? I do like the idea of him having a very twisted idea of what elven culture and values are like.
Why halflings? I admit I don't know all that much about Cheliax. Or Golarion elves, for that matter.
Anyway, the character is already an elf and has already played, so I'm not going to change that. But fiddling with background details like age, at what age he was captured, and how much time he spent as slave, apprentice or wizard, is perfectly fine.
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What about if elfs mature only a little bit slower than humans but their society and culture is so complex that it takes 100 year to be considered adult by their standards? This will also explain why humans are sometimes seen as uneducated when they encounter an elf village.
So if he get raised by humans it will take a couple of years (maybe around 5 or ten more but not 100) above the average human to be considered an adult by a human society but he will still be a child by elf standards and will lack any elf proficiency.
This is basically how it is handled in a custom setting my group sometimes uses. Elves only take about another 3-4 years above humans to mature physically, and can mature mentally about as fast as a human (if not faster, under appropriate pressures), BUT they still won't be considered an adult by elven standards.
To facilitate showing the above effect, we have separate adulthood entries for physical and cultural maturity. For most races these numbers aren't too far apart, and all the races we've bothered converting over have physical adulthood numbers between about 13 and 20. Elves are bit of an outlier with a cultural adulthood of 110.
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Let's say an elven couple lives in a human settlement and has a son, but when the boy is still little they both die due to a tragic accident.
Since no one knew any elven relatives of the parents, nor where they came from, or any other elves, the son is now raised by one of the humans in town.
It just seems odd to me that that elf would actually be the standard elf age when he starts a career in one of the PC classes, instead of starting it when he's in his 20s or 30s.
I get that "real elves" would probably laugh at him and view him as a child still, but when he waits till he's 120 years old, that would mean he probably saw the children of his 'siblings' die already and even their grandchildren have grandchildren by now.
Or do elves actually mature that much slower, either physically or mentally, that a 60 year old elf isn't any bigger, stronger or smarter than a 8 year old human?
Disclaimer: Forgive me, but I'm purposefully skipping all the replies to directly comment on the OP — I'm short on time. Also, I won't comment on what's cannon in Golarion because I have my own homebrew campaign setting...
In my world, elves mature physically at a slightly slower rate than half-elves, who in turn mature slightly slower than humans. (i.e. 18 yo human = ~22 yo half elf = ~26 yo elf). What IS different however are the ages of majority. In the elven culture on Elsemar, an elf's centennial birthday is seen as them reaching the age of majority — this has a very similar cultural significance as a human hitting their 21st birthday in United States culture. While they would have been allowed to drink wine or practice swordplay and spellcraft for many decades by this point, they may now get married, hold public office, assume control over any inheritance, etc.
With all that said...
Would an elf raised by humans be 100+ years when he starts adventuring?
Based upon my own conception of elves, I would say that an elf raised in the company of humans would assume the role of an adult sometime in their mid 20s. By that point, any human foster siblings that they grew up with would have already started getting married, and their parents would be getting up in years. It would be to the point where the elf recognized that they too need to start sharing equally in the duties of an adult.
That might mean they take a job or seek a human spouse. It might also mean that the differences between themselves and humans is starting to become obvious enough that they desire to learn more about their own people and set out into the world as an adventurer. It might even be a combination of both — the love between Deedlit and Parn would work just as well for an elf raised among humans as it does for a young elf becoming infatuated with a human and sneaking away from their people.
Naturally, if the physiology of elves in your setting is different, then you need to realistically work out all the implications of that. Elves who take 100 years just to reach physical maturity might be more like capricious fey when they are little — long-lived and lots of experience, but still emotionally and physically immature.
Only the person calling the shots on your setting can say which it is for the elves in your world, but I thought you might at least appreciate this as one of many possibilities.
An elf raised by human could possibly start adventuring before 100. But, he should also lose the elf weapon proficiencies. Thats something that is learned, not innate. If he isn't raised the elven way, he shouldn't learn the elven stuff.
Similarly, a dwarf raised among humans shouldn't gain the Hatred, Defensive Training, and Weapon Familiarity abilities, as they are learned as well.
This can be modeled quite easily by swapping the racial traits for alternate racial abilities. Humans even have an adoptive parentage alternate racial trait
Unfortunately there are no dwarven alternate racial traits that swap Weapon familiarity . And those swapping Defensive Training do not quite fit for an human raised dwarf.
For elves there are several that swap out Weapon Familiarity: Arcane Focus, Fleet-Footed and Spirit of the Waters. Only Fleet Footed fits for a human raised elf, but it fits very well.
But you could also argue that maybe the Weapon Familiarity is due to the weapons being designed especially for the elven/dwarven physique and vice versa.
There are also the two traits Adopted (allowing to pick a race trait of the adoptive race) and Forlorn (for elves) of course. Forlorn models the jadedness quite well:
Elves raised in human societies are known as the Forlorn, because it really depresses you to watch your childhood friends grow old and die of old age before you even hit puberty.
BTW Marked for Death is an Eberron novel that describes a human raised elven girl.
This topic looks like it may have quite an impact on my Elf Wizard. His background (mostly to easily introduce him in the middle of ad adventure in Council of Thieves) is that he was captured and enslaved by Cheliax nobility when he was young, and after years of abuse he was sold and trained as a wizard's apprentice, and became a promising Conjurer. (Then he wanted out, snuck around a mansion he was visiting, ran into the PCs and decided to join them and escape.)
But how does that work for an elf? If it takes 80 years to go from child to adult, no Cheliax nobleman is going to wait for that. Should he have been (almost) adult when he was abducted? I do like the idea of him having a very twisted idea of what elven culture and values are like.
Well don't make him an adult. Also who says the Chelaxians knew about these details. He was still a child when abducted is now really a angsty devil-conjuring teenage adolescent elf. I like it. Tell us more about your character! Is he a plain vanilla conjurer or an infernal binder ? (Yay for imp familiar!)
I'd give him one of the following alternate racial traits: Arcane Focus (replaces weapon familiarity) or Fleet-Footed (replaces keen senses and weapon familiarity.) (Either he is a natural arcane talent or he is rash)
Also choose the following traits: Forlorn (jaded by the treatment amon humans), Adopted and as a third trait (from adopted) pick either Carefully Hidden (if he practiced not being noticed as an outsider), Fanatic (he hid in the library), Infernal Influence(this is not genetic but due to the mistreatment under the chelaxians), or my favourite Masterful Demeanor(he adopted the feeling of superiority from Cheliaxans). Or did you already choose the CoT campaign trait diabolist raised ?
Why halflings? I admit I don't know all that much about Cheliax. Or Golarion elves, for that matter.
Anyway, the character is already an elf and has already played, so I'm not going to change that. But fiddling with background details like age, at what age he was captured, and how much time he spent as slave, apprentice or wizard, is perfectly fine.
Halflings are a slave/servant caste in Cheliax, and have a secret underground freedom movement there.
http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Elves
http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Halflings
I personally like to think elves develop biologically and psychologically at a different rate to humans. Not that there's any specific rules justifications for it, but in my settings elf gestation takes a full calendar year, and physical maturation takes around thirty. Psychological development is much slower, such that it's rare for them to overcome the impulsive and careless behaviours one would associate with human teens before the age of eighty. I think it makes sense to me that a mind that can last multiple centuries probably develops at a slower pace.
You would think that at 15 he would be out of diapers already. Now potty training for the next 6 or seven years...
Well don't make him an adult. Also who says the Chelaxians knew about these details. He was still a child when abducted is now really a angsty devil-conjuring teenage adolescent elf. I like it.This topic looks like it may have quite an impact on my Elf Wizard. His background (mostly to easily introduce him in the middle of ad adventure in Council of Thieves) is that he was captured and enslaved by Cheliax nobility when he was young, and after years of abuse he was sold and trained as a wizard's apprentice, and became a promising Conjurer. (Then he wanted out, snuck around a mansion he was visiting, ran into the PCs and decided to join them and escape.)
But how does that work for an elf? If it takes 80 years to go from child to adult, no Cheliax nobleman is going to wait for that. Should he have been (almost) adult when he was abducted? I do like the idea of him having a very twisted idea of what elven culture and values are like.
That's an interesting idea. I assumed that as an experienced conjurer, he had to be adult, but for an elf in human captivity, I guess he could be younger. A teenage devil-summoner, a scary thought.
Tell us more about your character! Is he a plain vanilla conjurer or an infernal binder ? (Yay for imp familiar!)
Teleportation subschool. I'd considered Infernal binder, but I don't think it was in a book that I was allowed to use (the GM only has Core, APG and UM, and wants to stick with what he has). I will still go for an Imp familiar, but I'll just pay a feat for it.
I admit I also wasn't entirely sure what I'd do with an infernal binder. It sounded a bit too specific to me. Teleportation is something I understand, and I liked the ability to quickly get out of trouble. Although I do really envision him as a devil summoner. There's not as lot of devils in lower level summon monster spells, but I've already summoned a Lemure to suck up some damage.
He's definitely intended as a character of questionable ethics. He's not evil, but he has no problem using evil methods. He hates the ruling class for their decadence and the impractical way in which they mismanage Cheliax. And he feels that as an elf, he should be superior to them. He doesn't really have any plans beyond hurting or harming them and their plans in any way possible. (Mostly because that makes him a flexible addition to a group of rebels fighting the evil empire.) I like to describe his alignment as Lawful-Chaotic Evil-Good.
I suppose teenager would work.
I'd give him one of the following alternate racial traits: Arcane Focus (replaces weapon familiarity) or Fleet-Footed (replaces keen senses and weapon familiarity.) (Either he is a natural arcane talent or he is rash)
Makes sense, but again, not the correct books, I think. I'd definitely have gone for Arcane Focus otherwise.
Also choose the following traits: Forlorn (jaded by the treatment amon humans), Adopted and as a third trait (from adopted) pick either...
All very appropriate, but I went with Reactionary in the end. He was bullied (or beaten, in my case) as a kid, and has +2 initiative as a result.
I also got the campaign trait Diabolist Raised, of course. Not the most useful bonus to me, but it fit just a bit too well to ignore.
So, I've not seen anyone link it yet, sooooooooo...
Examples of elves (by proxy of half-elves) aging/maturing slower than humans, but expected to age/mature at the same rate as humans:
Example Part 1, Example Part 2, Example Part 3, Example Part 4
Really that entire comic's premise is, "who wants to-", er, I mean, "it sucks to live too long, especially when you have interactions with 'mortal' races".
EDIT: [ooc]also worth noting that Meiji - debatably the 'protagonist' of the comic - is roughly equivalent to thirteen to fourteen during the entire course of the events (even several years later), but has been pushed through the wizard school program and been forced to become an extremely potent mage, despite her mental, physical, and emotional immaturity. This is a source of consternation and frustration throughout the story, as she's really desperately trying to be an 'adult', but is, ultimately, a young girl having adult things foisted upon her when she's way too young for it, which has, by proxy, severely messed her up. That comic is actually a pretty interesting way to model what a adventuring parties would look like and be and do in a fantasy world, presupposing their eclectic skills are at least somewhat rare.[ooc]
Also, one other option is to basically consider elven children with rather extreme forms of ADD, being learning-prohibitive until mental maturity. It would make for an extremely taxing rearing process as humans would tend to say, "How many times have I told you...?" and the elves genuinely wouldn't know because they physically and mentally can't pay attention long enough for the sentence to finish, much less for the lesson to sink in.
And it's because they're immature.
So that's not really changing the dynamic of this thread, at all, but it's another way of looking at it.
Thanks just what I needed ANOTHER webcomic to read...
I still think how they were modeled in D&D based fiction works just fine.
They grow up at roughly the same rate, but live a helluva lot longer.
Why? Because magic.
Why? Because magic.
Similar to how a Wizard can gain immortality.
Thanks Tacticslion!
Great webcomic!
As for the elf thing, I have them age twice as long as a human til about age 15 or so (elf age ~30). Then, I use BIG LEAGUE mental/emotional immaturity for the next 40 years or so.
Actually, I am doing something similar for a sylph character of mine.
Buddy of mine thinks that is ridiculous and the age tables only reflect elven society. He thinks an elf in a human environment ages same rate as other humans, but will be years and years before being accepted as a member of elf society.
Had to toss in something dealing with the topic. That webcomic is great!
Greg
Azaelas, at least it's already finished, so you'll never have to 'wait' to get to the next chapter! Literally, it's a complete work, so you can start at the beginning and get to the end (although the author is currently republishing pages with new commentary).
Greg, I'm glad to help! :)
Azaelas, at least it's already finished, so you'll never have to 'wait' to get to the next chapter! Literally, it's a complete work, so you can start at the beginning and get to the end (although the author is currently republishing pages with new commentary).
Yeah I noticed that. But I still have around 15 other already finished webcomics to read. One of which has archives from January 1, 2000 and updated 7 days a week with no missed updates all the way to January 1, 2012.
Kids might be cute but most of them are real jerks, too. So I would rather give them a penalty on charisma not a bonus. Perhaps an additional ability to give them a bonus on cha checks vs their parents.This is one of the cases where I think the young creature simple template doesn't accurately depict a young creature. There should also be a -2 to Int and Wis, with a +2 to Dex, and maybe a +2 to Cha. After all, most children are nimble, most cute, and the vast majority lack learning and understanding.
Just my 2 coppers.
Agreed. When i need actual stats fr a child character i usually go with the young creature template and add -1 to WIS, INT and CHA (basically inverse aging effects on the mental stats).
Just because children are cute, they aren't any more sociable or have any more force of personality, rather less.
I have gone with the Elves mature at slightly slower rates than humans and pretty much the same rates as Dwarves and Halflings for years.
So basically they hit puberty around 18-20 and are considered "adults" at 30 or so. 31-100 is roughly equivalent to the 20s for Elves. 101-250 are basically the equivalent of the 30s and 40s. Very few Elves continue to adventure past this point as their is intense societal pressure to become parents and use your time to prepare the next generation for their responsibilities.
Few Elves are going to spend the entire period of 31-250 as adventurers as it's generally expected that elves will have periods of wanderlust interspersed with long period practicing a trade or profession or engaged in study. In most cases I have older NPC elves with numerous ranks of various professions/crafts/knowledges that represent their time spent in service to their communities as simple craftsmen. Periods of intense meditation about various aspects of life also occur throughout their life where they might function as an ascetic contemplating various arcane branches of elven philosophy for years on end.
Trips to the hidden domains of elves are always strange for outsiders as it's rare for anyone other than rare paragons to engage exclusively in a single field of study for their entire life (such as perfecting the warrior's craft or mastering magic) and those that do are often seen as a bit fae even by their own kind. It can also be surprising when outsiders encounter a seemingly simple craftsman that also has numerous levels in a class completely unrelated to their current profession.
Some elves leave their societies as early as 30 but most don't truly become "adventurers" until sometime after their 50th birthday. Many older elves will be indulgent of elves younger than 50 but tend to be somewhat dismissive of those that haven't lived that much. This tends to extend to their relationships with other races as all but the most elder humans simply aren't seen as mature enough in the ways of the world.
Would you really define overconfident jerks as charismatic?
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NO, WE ARE NOT SPENDING 20 YEARS IN DIAPERS. THAT'S JUST RETARDED.
Agreed, elves are retarded. They spend 20 years or more in diapers.
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Would you really define overconfident jerks as charismatic?
Hitler, Castro, Stalin... Yes I would...
okay let's look at it as if it were a human. Would you expect a 10 year old to start a PC career?
Sure. PCs are usually the exception, not the norm.
I know lots of people gripe and complain that it doesn't make any sense.
But let's look at the real world for examples. Nearly all wild animals mature to breeding ability in one to two years. It takes humans about ten years or more.
Most animals are walking and running within minutes, days, or weeks of being born. It takes humans two years or more.
Its mostly so our brains can develop at a similar rate to our bodies. Elves are more Intelligent than humans, sure, but they're none seven times as intelligent as humans, so why should they take seven times as long to physically and mentally mature?
A 100 year old elf is about the same maturity level as a 20 year old human. Who raises him does not matter and can not change the rate at which his body matures. Try as you might you can't force someone's body to grow up faster.
Here's my gripe with this entire scenario; the age of adulthood in humans has hardly been stable in the 2,000+ years we've inhabited this planet. As little as 2,000 years ago, as soon as you were old enough to have children of your own, you were an adult, and this is probably still true today in some cultures across the world. Many modern civilizations put much more stock in mental maturity, however. Even then, the United States lists age 18 as its age of adulthood, but some freedoms are still restricted beyond this number and scientifically speaking, most people are not developmentally mature until 25 years of age, so it comes off as more of a "What point is enough enough" for a society rather than any true scientific reason.
From an evolutionary standpoint, it doesn't make much sense to be an infant for 20 years or a weak, defenseless child for 30 more. The possibility that an elf's entire body simply matures slowly does make sense, but it also screams of impracticality, especially considering that most stories have elves that are descended from fey or live their lives very close to the natural world; nature strives for efficiency.
I can accept the argument that a few more years need to be tacked on here and there in order for the elf to reach maturity; in my home campaign, an elf is the physical equivalent of an 18-year-old human at age 25. However, the idea that it takes them 110 years to do what a human does in 15 is incredibly stupid to me. It takes the mysticism of the elven lifespan and makes it look downright silly. In my game, the 110 year-old adult is a societal construct made in part because elves do mentally mature slower than humans and also in part because when you live to be 500+ years, your idea of what "seasonably wizened" is is skewed a bit.
This DOES present an interesting problem though. Since it takes the elf 100 years to actually physically mature, and he is being raised by humans, we must consider his foster parents. So during his young formative years, his foster parents die, his foster siblings die, and finally his foster nephews and nieces finish raising him. So yeah, he'd be messed up most likely.
In Golarion, the situation you describe is almost word for word the background of the forlorn elves. Of which the Iconic Rogue is one.
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Would any human family raise a child that long....wouldn't that just get tired of it and toss the 25 year old toddler out the door?
And I still want to know why Dhampir have the same starting age as elves...who is going to take care of such a cursed child except for maybe the mother or aunt...but family born after that has no emotional attachment to the parent...unlikely.
You have to think in medieval times a 19 year old like me would be married, have children, and running my own business.
It wouldn't be inconceivable for a Human of 10 winters to be forced into an adventure. Especially, if they are say an Oracle or Sorcerer.
I would say an Elf reaches Physical Maturity around 35-40 and Mental/Cultural Maturity around 100 years.
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Would you really define overconfident jerks as charismatic?Hitler, Castro, Stalin... Yes I would...
Just because some overconfident jerks are charismatic, doesn't mean being an overconfident jerk makes you charismatic.
I was using it to point out that most of them are able to avoid trouble.
And I was just stating it isn't out of the question to have child adventurers.
Would you really define overconfident jerks as charismatic?Hitler, Castro, Stalin... Yes I would...
Have you ever listened and gone along with an overconfident jerk? Did you feel their jerk natures winning you over? Or was it their naive bluster and reckless, unfounded confidence? Did the words from such a person caress you into agreement?
You have to think in medieval times a 19 year old like me would be married, have children, and running my own business.
It wouldn't be inconceivable for a Human of 10 winters to be forced into an adventure. Especially, if they are say an Oracle or Sorcerer.
It's not inconceivable to have a game with child adventurers, but it also isn't standard. It's a sub-genre essentially. Rogues would be the other obvious example. The fantasy (and historical) genre is full of examples of orphaned street urchins stumbling into adventure, either as protagonists or sidekicks.
That said, the difference between modern and medieval concepts of adulthood is, at least partly, handled in that age table. A 110+ elf is considered an adult, but that's the equivalent of a 15+ year old human, not 18+ or 21+.
Yep. Which is why the pre-110+starting char years for elves troubles me a bit. They are not 15 at 30 or 50, they are close to 15 at 110 with all that this entails.
Would any human family raise a child that long....wouldn't that just get tired of it and toss the 25 year old toddler out the door?
And I still want to know why Dhampir have the same starting age as elves...who is going to take care of such a cursed child except for maybe the mother or aunt...but family born after that has no emotional attachment to the parent...unlikely.
100 years as a baby, then child half vampire is a long stretch. Lot of encounters and problems could develop over that time.
"So for the first thirty my mother took care of me, then she died, then I was a street urchin for sixty, I still remember the festivals for the coronation of the last two kings, then I was in the thieves guild for twenty, yeah, times were tough through those two sieges, and now I am ready to start out as a rogue!
Interesting point. If a child in feudalism knows nothing but farmwork, they will be good at farmwork but will be a specialist that potentially doesn't know what specialisation means. That daily grind may also break them or kill them via accidents or malnutrition before they are 30.
Another point that is relevant to elven children becoming adventurers prior to actual adulthood. You can take a child and teach them a martial art from an early age, truly start them young. If they focus and have a great teacher they can seem truly adept, perform the moves without thinking, look great. However, learning to take hits and keep going takes time and conditioning. So these little martial artists can still break down and cry when hurt because they are still children. Hardness, grit, hp in effect, it takes time.