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I am in a campaign that goes to 20th level and we are roughly at 9th level now. I am tired of the Flurry of Misses. Out of combat the character is useful, but in combat, it is just a swing and a miss.
The game has a pair of DMs that trade off every other module so that they can be in the game
One gm plays what we have come to call a Thug Monk. It is some "archetype" from the campaign setting, giving up many monk abilities for strength and fighter like abilities.
The other plays a Witch
Other Characters in the group:
Myrmidarch/scout
Inquisitor
Wizard
Cleric
The monk can't hit the broad side of a barn. When he hits one out of 5 times (that's when I use a Ki point) I get to do the damage from the monk belt that I got and many times I will roll 3 points of damage (I know, random), yet I am tired of the problems with the monk. The other players are happy as far as I know and isn't the game all about having fun.
What I am asking for is some suggestions for good characters.
I have tried to come up with my own befor I approached the DM(s) with my situation, but I have not been able to come up with anything good
I have the Core, APG, Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic books.
Thanks for any suggestions.
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EDIT
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I should say I am not a fan of spell casters like Clerics, Summoners, Wizards and the like
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Why don't you try out a melee class like Cavalier, or Barbarian? Or, because you're higher level, you could go strait into a Prestige Class, like Duelist, or Low Templar(I know that's in the Inner Sea Guide, but I can link you if it sounds interesting)?
You have plenty of Magic, so it seems a melee character is what you need. Expect lots of those types of responses. I hope you find the character you're looking for, and I hope you don't give up on the Monk just because this one isn't doing too good for you ^_^
Half Elf Synth Summoner? Can be amazing in melee, immune to sleep (half elf), have some magic on the side, Charisma based so speaking shouldn't suck to do.
A Mr. Hyde Alchemist could also be fun for you, changing into a feral killer through a concoction you made up.
Two-Handed Fighter could get you plenty of damage with better chances to hit.
As Tirq said, lots of options and thus probably plenty of different responses.
Yus, Barbarian may be a good choice. Gives you a higher to-hit, more damage, lots and lots of HP, Rage Powers, and did I mention more damage?
And Flurry of Misses is a good way to put it. I have had two Monks now and the one that gives up the Flurry of Blows is the most consistently useful.
Could you post your build? The monks I've played, I've always had a blast and dependable in combat.
if you wanna stick with monk? see if you can swap for master of many styles. grab some neat style feats (people here really crane and snake, iirc) and go to town.
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I like Monkey Style. You get to enter your opponent's square without provoking, you get to cause them penalties, and you get to make Monkey sounds for free! What's not to love?
the fleas can be murder i hear.
if you wanna stick with monk? see if you can swap for master of many styles. grab some neat style feats (people here really crane and snake, iirc) and go to town.
^^^^^
I'm personally rocking it right now with Dragon, Snake, and Tiger. Only have two for Dragon and Snake (you really only need Ferocity and Fang, not Roar and the other one) but Tiger Style seems like all 3 are good.
Also, Elemental Fist is your best friend if you have Dragon Style/Ferocity. You're basically a Monk of the Four Winds, but hit harder.
Monks are HARD to build. There's a tendency to push Dex and Wisdom. Melee monks are effectively built like Ong Bak, strength is primary, That way, you both dish out and take a beating.
How did you set your stats? Did you set up for offense, or defense?
As a bit of an addition to the above, I personally say Wis/Str are a lot more important than Dex. Don't dump Dex by any means, but you get a much larger payoff from Wis (Extra AC, Will saves, Sense Motive/Perception, bigger Ki Pool, etc.) than you'll ever get from Dex.
@OP - I've been playing a human Samurai and having a blast. The class abilities are mechanically strong and cinematic and I like the RP flavor of the class (although there's no reason you couldn't re-skin him as a type of Western knight).
I've built my Samurai (Order of the Warrior) as focusing on two-handed weapons with high crit ranges. I've chosen katana for Weapon Expertise (samurai ability - gives quickdraw for that weapon, a +2 to confirm crits (untyped so stacks with crit focus) and access to certain fighter feats specific to single weapons).
I would recommend taking Power Attack and Furious Focus early on, picking up Iron Will shortly thereafter (although Improved Iron Will is superfluous) and then at ninth level starting on the Critical Focus chain (by this time you'll want to have a keen katana).
Finally, you get a man-eating murder horse for a mount. Charging is a great way to get into combat: Way of the Samurai (roll 3x take best on attack, save or skill check) + Banner bonus to Charge + double damage for charging + Crit Focus bonus to confirm + Challenge damage, and once your in combat you can dismount and flank with your horse. The horse is also great for chasing down fleeing enemies and serves as a good platform for archery (since you only have half the penalties for your mount moving in combat).
i find janni/dragon styles and vital strike to make for a hilarious RIDER KICK build.
As requested here is my
Monk: Four Winds/ Drunken Master
STR 14
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 20
CHA 13
AC 25
HP 78/73 (from resurrection)
BAB 6/1 Flurry 7/7/4/4
Unarmed attack 10/5 2d6+2
Flurry 11/11/6/6 2d6+2
Dijinni Style 10 2d6/2d6+2
Marid Style 10 2d6/2d6+2
Dodge, Weapon Focus-Unarmed strike, Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Mobility
Dijinni Style
Deflect Arrows
Marid Style
Weapon Finesse
Skills : put most points in Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist
and Sense Motive. points spread to other skills as needed.
Magic items: Monk Belt (same as Monk Robe), Gloves of swim and climb +5,
Bracers AC +2, Amulet Natural Armor +1, Boots of Elven Kind,
Cloak of Elven Kind
I'd originally intended to go for Whirlwind that is why I got the Combat Expertise and Mobility. This was my first Monk as my other characters were either Thieves or Fighters
As for the rest of the group I am not 100% sure about them I know the Cleric is Caden Cakalen (sp). The wizard is relatively new to the party and I am not sure what his schools are.
When I first started my Monk all I had was the Core book. If I had the other books that I have now, I would have built a different character.
I thought about flanking but not with my monk. We are frequently in close quarters combat but rarely get in situations where we can flank the enemy. More often than not the enemy flanks us.
Well the major glaring thing that jumps out here is 14 Str and 16 Int.
Why?
It's not on the same extreme, but that sounds like a milder version of our Druid, he of 19 Con and 13 Wis. Misallocated Attributes awaaay!
I could understand maybe if you were going for Kirin Style? But even then the bonuses from that only really offset your lack of Strength, not add anything particularly new.
Your build sucks. Thats why:P
Monks arent nobrainers - to make them somehow effective you need a good build. Actually your stats look fine for a MAD class. I guess you started with 16+2+2 wis - thats not necessary. While wis is important hight str is even more important.
Str 16 +2 class
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 16 +2 (level)
Cha 13
Maybe even all points in str.
Then go for MoMS pick at least tiger and dragon, maybe snake/crane.
Get your wizard a pearl of power and let him cast mage armor on you every day. Get rid of that mobility stuff and weapon finesse, pick a belt of giant strength and ask the cleric for a greater magic weapon every morning.
You should be at least fine then. Tiger style + power attack will hurt your AC but your damage will be really neat, especially with dragon style.
Problem is he can't cast spells for jack and he didn't want to be a Wild Shape specialist anyway. It was his first char, so he didn't wanna die. S'okay though, he's got a Hexcrafter Magus coming in soon that looks utterly badass.
And why would Con add to your friend's bite damage?
Some Random Monk Questions...
1. Does Amulet of Mighty Fists stack with Greater Magic Fang?
2. Is there a way to protect the permanent Greater Magic Fang from being dispelled?
3. Is the Amulet worth the coin vs. just enchanting a flurry-able weapon in the traditional manner? That would restrict you from being able to knee evil in the face, but perhaps you'd be able to hit hard enough to bypass some of the DR just from raw damage. Considering that you can flurry with one weapon now (FAQ we loves you) that one weapon might be able to amped up to the extreme.
p.s. Dotting this since it has so many nice suggestions for fixing monk issues. Hopefully they fix enough that they can lure me back into playing this class again, cause I loves me my monks.
I'd enchant the flurry able weapon first. If you pick well, you'll be able to overcome a weapon type, and DR/magic.
As for the OP: you built a monk that was ntelligent and charismatic and wise. That's also the reason he's not much good at fighting. I had to learn that lesson the hard way as well but there it is. Good at melee means high strength and combat feats.
More Questions:
4a) Is there a melee weapon in the game that could be augmented to increase one's unarmed strikes (e.g. knuckle dusters, guantlets), or are you just considered to be armed when doing so?
4b) If so would you get the Amulet of Mighty Fists DR bypassing thing with it as well?
Rebuild to a Monk Zen Archer following this guide. You might even be able to salvage your original monk character concept... not throwing the baby out with bath water. You will dominate damage per round. Enjoy.
cheers
OPI know how you feel, I used to love the monk till i realized the unarmed fighter/brawler can do everything they can do better, except for stunning fist.
I woud honestly go a level of moms then full unarmed fighter or brawler. that way you will be able to hit, take hits and be the best monster puncher you can be.
OPI know how you feel, I used to love the monk till i realized the unarmed fighter/brawler can do everything they can do better, except for stunning fist.
I woud honestly go a level of moms then full unarmed fighter or brawler. that way you will be able to hit, take hits and be the best monster puncher you can be.
Doesn't the unarmed fighter only deal 1d3 damage with his fists normally, if playing strictly by the book? Personally I (and the GMs I play with) houserule it so any character with improved unarmed strike deals 1d4/1d6 damage with his fists, unless it actually is in the rules somewhere and I just missed it.
Please tell me why the unarmed fighter is strictly better (I believe you, I just want to know how)
OPI know how you feel, I used to love the monk till i realized the unarmed fighter/brawler can do everything they can do better, except for stunning fist.
I woud honestly go a level of moms then full unarmed fighter or brawler. that way you will be able to hit, take hits and be the best monster puncher you can be.
Doesn't the unarmed fighter only deal 1d3 damage with his fists normally, if playing strictly by the book? Personally I (and the GMs I play with) houserule it so any character with improved unarmed strike deals 1d4/1d6 damage with his fists, unless it actually is in the rules somewhere and I just missed it.
Please tell me why the unarmed fighter is strictly better (I believe you, I just want to know how)
they have weapon spec annd all the fighter bonus feats allowign them to do a better damage, yes they do 1d3 but my unarmed fighter does 1d3+19, compared to my monk who does 1d8 +11. dont forget full BAB
Well... They get armor... and increased damage from fighter feats, more health, better BaB... and that's about it.
They loose better saves, larger dice rolls, actual class abilities, 2 extra skill points per level, and automatic Two Weapon Fighting that increases in power by the level.
they can just take the TWF feats and be good they have enough feats to use.
No reason a fighter wouldn't use spiked gauntlets. They can be MW, silver, enchanted, etc, so there are some real advantages.
It kinda looks like your DM is willing to work with you based on stats and item alternates. You could ask him about multi classing into a ninja but allowing the ki pool accumulation to stay the say. Then work on your dex and stealth.
OPI know how you feel, I used to love the monk till i realized the unarmed fighter/brawler can do everything they can do better, except for stunning fist.
I woud honestly go a level of moms then full unarmed fighter or brawler. that way you will be able to hit, take hits and be the best monster puncher you can be.
I have looked at my character and I would have to somehow have to NOT take my two archetypes. That would be a total rebuild. I do like the idea of taking levels of something else to make the character better, but this doesn't seem to do that. Even if I took the Unarmed Fighter and wore armor (thus negating the monk abilities) would I have the unarmed strike of the monk or the unarmed strike of the fighter?
First of all to everyone, thanks for your input.
One thing I should mention, the stats were rolled, 4d6 minus the lowest die. We have used this method since before 3rd ED.
Also, I don't mind the critique on my horrible creation of the monk. I created it BEFORE I came to these boards. Some people come here first and THEN create a character. Since I have been playing since the 80's, I thought I had thinks well in hand (being an old gamer doesn't mean I am a good gamer it seems)
There is a reason for the 16 in the INT. The more skill points, the better. I am also one of THOSE people that puts a 14 into CON not only for hitpoints, but for FORT saves.
I am not a Min/Max player or a Rules Lawyer. I have played games with both types. I create normal characters.
Now about suggestions, I wasn't really looking for a revamp of my current character. In a roleplaying sense for the character to suddenly to appear with new powers and skills just seems wrong, but I appreciate the suggestions.
I have seen a couple of non monk suggestions, I'd like to know if there are any others. Just a note, I have explored the idea of a Rogue with Sneak attack, but we rarely get into situations where sneak attack can be used, even the rogue trick, Unwilling Ally.
Thanks
Well, if you wanna be a skill monkey maybe play a Bard. They're pretty much "Eh. Whatever." when it comes to Feats, so take Improved Unarmed Strike and roll with it if you still want unarmed fighting. Or take a level of Monk and then swap to Bard.
Or the Sensei Monk Archetype, they're like BardMonks.
I'm not a Min/Max-er either but I generally try to pick stats that complement my class. If I were unable to re-allocate stats (thankfully we don't do that, we roll 4d6 and put 'em wherever) and I rolled an 8 Str and 20 Int, I wouldn't be playing a Fighter, you know?
I'm right with ya on the 14 Con. But Rynjin has a point as well, melee monks need strength, and you pushed INT instead.
Nothing wrong with that, but don't be surprised later when you miss a lot, or don't do a lot of damage.
Honestly there's not that much you can do. at lower levels there would be some stuff you could do - but you're really driven into the ground with that monk:P
Fighter levels might help, but wont really give you that much to make that character viable. maybe duelist/kensai to get some more armor? pick up crane wing to at least have some defense. The higher it gets the more frustrating it will be. At least your saves are good (no matter wether 12 or 14 con:P)...
Maybe get your DM to give you access to a template that will make you stronger based on roleplaying causalities (weird gods likes you ->BAM celestial template):D haha, I'm sorry, divine intervention is the only thing that comes to my mind:P
I stand behind the half elf synthesis summoner. Go quad, get as many primary natural attacks as you can buy, definitely get pounce, natural armor and up the damage of your natural attacks and you'll probably wreck a lot of things and have fun role playing possibilities.
I guess if you're not into that, a properly built magus could be awesome. Never played them personally mind you, but I've heard good things.
If you're looking for simplicity, I'd suggest just picking up the biggest 2 handed weapon you can get, going either barbarian (maybe titan mauler for giggles) or fighter (two handed fighter archetype).
If you want to make a different monk in place of the one you've got, I really like the master of many styles or the zen archer.
I suppose if you went Scout / Thug Rogue with the sap master feat line, you could be amazing at just plain knocking your opponents out and have plenty of skills to choose from.
Never played a bard, but they'd probably be great support for your party. As I haven't played them I can't say either way a build that might help your current problem.
Anyways, good luck.
Sneak attack never worked for my rogues either. If I ever play a rogue again, it's probably going to be a ranger with a single level of rogue.
If you're not looking for a redesigned monk, what's your plan? Do you want a completely new character? Of are you looking for a way to make a low-strength monk work?
Aren't there feats and other abilities that make monks effectively a full-BAB class when using flurry or combat maneuvers? That can help a lot. Also don't forget that you can use shuriken and monk weapons.
If you want something else, maybe try a Ranger switch-hitter. At a distance you shoot stuff, nearby you smash it with a big two-handed sword. Lots of skills. If you want a bit of rogue, you can sacrifice one point of BAB for a single level of rogue, getting you sneak attack, trapfinding and disable device, allowing you to fill practically any martial role.
Well, actually you can make any class work in a not that much optimized group. Just tell us what you want to play instead of monk and we can help you building the character. Third Mind already mentioned some options but there are a lot more. From Oracle to Cavalier and dragon disciple, alchemist or ranger - everything can be viable, just decide what kind of character you want to play.
With 2 ranks in perform you will meet the pre-reqs for the Duelist prestige class. Then you can start having that Int pull double duty in your AC. Grab The feat Hamatulatsu from the Inner Sea World Guide to allow your unarmed strikes to deal piercing damage and thereby gain the damage benefits of the prestige class. check with your DM to see if he'll let you pick different feats when the Duelist obtains combat reflexes and deflect arrows. I would recommend crane style for that added parrying awesomeness.
With this option you could actually still lay in the bed you made with minimal changes.
Edit*-Definitely go crane style, as fighting defensively + combat expertise + Duelist elaborate defenses = huge AC!
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Honest answer, your stat array is terrible. Monk is heavy dependant on Str or Dex(if plan to go with weapon finnese).
With that many points, you should have went with at least 18 Str.
Don't get me wrong, monks are hard to balance out for people trying them for first time. It takes some time to actually look at abilities and decide what is best.
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 10
I would focus on average AC of 14-16 at level 1, higher CON and STR for Drunken Master. Hell, if you can reach 18 STR and CON it's all you need.
I suppose if I had to pick a class it would be the Magus. The DM handed me the Ultimate Magic book and I saw the Magus. (I was interested in the Duskblade in 3.5 but never got to make one and I would have made a Magus had he gotten that book when the game started)
I notice that the Magus doesn't get Perception. We have another one in the group. She is playing a Myrmidarch/scout with a Bow.
I would play either a general kind or an Archetype. For the Campaign we are in, it would be ideal for my character to show up as an elf even though the monk is a human. Assume a point based system even though I role my stats so I have an idea where to put my stats. Ideally I would multiclass for for more skill points, but I suppose I can live without them.
As far as weapons go, I am guessing the Curved Elven blade.
Thanks
Just so we know, you've decided to make a new character instead of salvage your monk, Right?
Myrmidarch cannot use spellstrike with a bow. Just saying:P
more Skillpoints as int-based character? Especially when playing elf you will probably go for weapon finesse/dervish dance (or agile weapon) and start with at least 18 in dex/int:P
Dont worry about skillpoints.
Elven curved blade is not a good idea as far as you still want to be able to cast spells and use spellstrike.
I have looked at my character and I would have to somehow have to NOT take my two archetypes. That would be a total rebuild. I do like the idea of taking levels of something else to make the character better, but this doesn't seem to do that. Even if I took the Unarmed Fighter and wore armor (thus negating the monk abilities) would I have the unarmed strike of the monk or the unarmed strike of the fighter?OPI know how you feel, I used to love the monk till i realized the unarmed fighter/brawler can do everything they can do better, except for stunning fist.
I woud honestly go a level of moms then full unarmed fighter or brawler. that way you will be able to hit, take hits and be the best monster puncher you can be.
A lot of good suggestions have already been made as to what you could replace this character with or how to rebuild it. So I will try to give you some ideas what you could do to grow it into something better.
Your problem is that you spread your stats out too wide and that your primary stats can't really pull their weight. Suggestion here: one level of fighter after you get one level of oracle of life (alternatively cleric) with the lame curse. Judging from your stats you should be level 9, so fighter would be your 10th level, oracle your 11th level where you get the next regular feat. Pick a deity with unarmed strike as favored weapon. Then get channel smite as your combat feat and guided hand as your regular feat. You get wisdom for attacks now, your speed is never reduced due to encumberance, so even as a monk you can start to carry lots of stuff. You get some channeling ability (boostable with items) and some limited spells. You do not even need to argue or explain where your sudden powers due to oracle came from, and each level you get an increase in power and weapon choices - even when you take a small hit to your bab with the oracle level. Levels in holy vindicator or other classes also become available to you...
So to summarize this approach (assuming you are level 9):
- Level 9: Your monk as it is -> nothing is changed
- Level 10: Oracle of Life, lame curse -> 10 feet less speed, never slowed due to encumberance, immune to fatigue, channel energy, some spells (choose what helps a monk like divine favor), can use divine spell magic items etc.
- Level 11: Fighter, guided hand and channel smite + deity with unarmed strike favored weapon -> you flurry with your wisdom bonus to attack, can increase your damage output with channel smite
Alternatively choose cleric for the domains, flexibility in spells and no curse.
Otherwise you can try to move into a full-attack prestige class that synergizes well with your monk stats, e.g. duelist or holy vindicator. All take some prerequisites, though.
If you want to increase damage, you definitely should consider power attack, though. It is the most basic feat for almost all melee classes.
An entirely different route would be to go for ranged attacks with shurikens (adds your strength bonus to damage) and deadly aim. It requires more feats to be efficient, though.
Another thing again would be to pick a base class with pay-off later on, e.g. ranger - synergizes with spell-casting - cavalier/samurai, a tactician fighter, urban barbarian, ninja or inquisitor.
Ninja would be cool for the joined ki pools and the host of options you get, plus you get a lot out of your skill points.
The inquisitor would be a greater pick amongst the medium BAB classes IMO, but it's more complicated and includes spellcasting as a focus which I understand you're not so keen on. However, it gives you immediate benefits from your attributes and the class features don't get in the way like for example in the case of a magus (spellstrike + flurry = no work)... At level 3 you get the solo tactics feature, which will greatly increase your options to hit, e.g. with the flanking bonus feats.
I can see a lot of ways this character can be developed into an unusual but effective melee combatant. Most of it is feats, so if you can change some of your existing that would go a long way, otherwise it's a question of how long you can endure.
You should definitely
a) consider acquiring an amulet of might fists
b) ask the cleric - maybe by a pearl of power for that - to cast greater magic weapon on your fist (twice if necessary and you go by that interpretation of flurry). That will immediately boost your to hit chance and your damage output.
Hope this gives some ideas :-)