Hm. So. I've got a Mac. Stretch Goal, anyone?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Seriously, if one of the Stretch Goals were "We'll start working on a Mac version immediately (or a close approximation thereof,") I'd actually have a major reason to contribute to the Kickstarter.

Goblin Squad Member

The middleware they are using contributes to that a great deal. I get what you're saying, because running through bootcamp or whatever is not ideal. But if given the choice between devoting resources to looking at the mac market (single digits gaming market) and actually making the game, I'm going to have to say that as a general rule finishing the game is going to be worth more.

Which is not to say that they won;t want to investigate it. I know they will. But it's not easy even for big companies, and Goblinworks is literally tiny.

Goblin Squad Member

Go windows for gaming, apple is probably going to go bankrupt in legal fees anyway.

That stretch goal could be a very big once since mac exclusive users are a very small portion of the gaming crowd, and macs are overpriced.

Goblin Squad Member

Bottom line, the still unknown middleware determines mac compatibility.

If the middleware supports macs, we can expect a mac version pretty early on, especially as paizo's office's are primarally mac, so they'd probably do it just for personal reasons. However, if the middleware is not mac compatible, than it is out of goblinworks hands altogether. GW can't and won't write their own middleware from scratch just to reach a 1-2% of audience that has a mac, will pay for the game, and doesn't have a PC that they could also use. (a factor many people don't realize, is most mac users, who intend to play games, do have a windows PC for that purpose... so even if say mac users were 5% of the gaming crowd, 75% of that 5% most likely could still play the game.

Goblin Squad Member

Mac completely gave up on gaming after they released bootcamp. You wanna game on your Mac, you bootcamp end of story. Yeah it has its drawbacks but for me it's kind of cool because it forces me to clearly draw the line and quantify between gaming time and work time.

The games always work perfectly.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm in sort of the same shape. I'm thinking about giving a $5 donation, then anteing up the $100 for all the dungeon goodies (I think that works).

Because, well, a PC-only game won't do us much good in this house.

Cheers!
Landon

Goblin Squad Member

Yes to Mac version!
I think it's strange that people think Mac gaming is dying. More and more games are being released on Mac. It's computer market share has been growing, it's also the most valuable company in the planet, so it's not going anywhere soon.

I use a Mac, bootcamp is fine, but I prefer using Mac OS where I can. If a Mac version comes out its much more likely to keep me coming back regularly, it doesn't affect my willingness to support this game though, even without a Mac version.

Goblin Squad Member

Jameow wrote:

Yes to Mac version!

I think it's strange that people think Mac gaming is dying. More and more games are being released on Mac. It's computer market share has been growing, it's also the most valuable company in the planet, so it's not going anywhere soon.

I use a Mac, bootcamp is fine, but I prefer using Mac OS where I can. If a Mac version comes out its much more likely to keep me coming back regularly, it doesn't affect my willingness to support this game though, even without a Mac version.

I wouldn't even dream of saying mac gaming is dying, I would even say linux gaming is also raising, I myself am a hardcore linux user, rarely booting into windows on my main system if I can avoid it. However I have to say one thing is clear with both operating systems. Together I would say primarally mac and linux users, make up roughly 10-15% of the population, but 90%+ of them who intend to play games, have either bootcamp or dual boot systems for the purpose of games.

Now when it comes to games, it depends largely on what the game is based off of, as to whether it is portable. If silverlight, unity, direct X etc... is a way to reduce the costs by a huge portion, within the budget, a direct port is implausible. In goblinworks case, they are depending on middleware, which may or may not be compatible with other operating systems... In which case it isn't goblin works we need to petition for support (the incompatibility isn't technically their fault), it is the middleware creator that would need to be petitioned. (Of course with only guesses at this time of what the middleware is, we just have to wait and hope)

Goblin Squad Member

Yes, but why do Mac/Linux users use windows for games? Particularly with bootcamp or dual booting- it obviously isn't because their Mac isn't up to the task, it's because the option to play it natively on Mac/Linux isn't available, in fact I would say this dual booting is one of the reasons people have been moving to Mac- it will run everything.

I understand that it's not always simple to make a Mac version, but I have noticed many games, particularly smaller dev team ones pledging to support Mac as well.

Goblin Squad Member

Jameow wrote:

Yes to Mac version!

I think it's strange that people think Mac gaming is dying. More and more games are being released on Mac. It's computer market share has been growing, it's also the most valuable company in the planet, so it's not going anywhere soon.

I use a Mac, bootcamp is fine, but I prefer using Mac OS where I can. If a Mac version comes out its much more likely to keep me coming back regularly, it doesn't affect my willingness to support this game though, even without a Mac version.

You joking right? Mac gaming is dead, dead, dead. I mean sure you can play about half of the major titles 2 years later.

Bootcamp and be happy. If this game is very successful, we'll get a mac version 3 years after launch, lol.

Goblin Squad Member

Blizzard always releases Mac version simultaneously with windows. Guild wars 2 has a Mac beta now.greed monger promises a Mac version, Salem does too( granted its just java based or something), there are a few other promising projects also promising full support.

Goblin Squad Member

cases in point. All titles that became very successful and THEN started releasing mac versions simultaneously on expansions, or games that release mac versions a year or two later.

SWTOR is like the most expensive game ever..no mac version..and it's a bioware game, one of the mac friendlier companies out there.

I can't remember the last time I saw an actual game section in the mac section of a store.

GW2 mac version will be out just in time for when I'll stop playing...

Goblin Squad Member

There isn't usually a Mac section, as usually it supports Mac and windows, there's mostly digi downloads these days. There's the Mac App Store, and steam has its Mac section.

Goblin Squad Member

I think one of the middleware selections GW was considering had mac going into support for the latest version of that middleware - so - there's a possibility, if GW's did end up choosing that middleware to develop. But even if it is that middleware, the catch, it's not something GW's can work on at this stage and therefore it's not something they can make any plans and therefore announcements on, I believe.

@avari3: Mac is supported by Steam and gog. Cross-platform support is becoming more important for game developers. Some mmorpgs already do eg Vendetta Online.

Goblin Squad Member

Gaming on the mac is the healthiest it's been in my memory, I didn't even bother to install bootcamp on my iMac this time as I have plenty to keep me busy. You probably want Bootcamp if you want to be able to run any of the latest AAA releases, but if you're happy with indie games, retro games and the occasional AAA release mac gaming is great.

You may have to wait longer for new releases (in some cases, Blizzard and some others still support Mac right out of the gate), but I never buy games at release anyway so that's no issue.

Between Steam and GOG now I've got a massive amount of games to choose from. Obviously Windows is still a stronger gaming platform than OSX (and consoles are stronger than either of them), but Mac gaming is nowhere near dead.


It's the middleware that decides this. Without support for mac/linux in the middleware there is no way for the game developers to offer it. SWTOR used a heavily modified version of HeroEngine which does not have mac/linux support (Yet). Sorry to say but it probably won't be high on the list even if the middleware gets around to offering a mac version.

Goblin Squad Member

Jameow wrote:
Blizzard always releases Mac version simultaneously with windows. Guild wars 2 has a Mac beta now.greed monger promises a Mac version, Salem does too( granted its just java based or something), there are a few other promising projects also promising full support.

As I mentioned earlier, it always is what the project is built upon that determines it's portability. Written in C, Java etc... based off of OGL etc... Very easy to port. Written in .net, on top of direct X etc... A whole different ball game.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I doubt that anything currently existent won't run under WINE in two years. The biggest compatibility issue is DirectX vs openGL, and the fact that DirectX runs under WINE better than openGL code written for Windows runs natively on Macs.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Corwynn Maelstrom wrote:

The middleware they are using contributes to that a great deal. I get what you're saying, because running through bootcamp or whatever is not ideal. But if given the choice between devoting resources to looking at the mac market (single digits gaming market) and actually making the game, I'm going to have to say that as a general rule finishing the game is going to be worth more.

Which is not to say that they won;t want to investigate it. I know they will. But it's not easy even for big companies, and Goblinworks is literally tiny.

Actually... running through Boot Camp, other than the need to own reboot, is EXACTLY the same as running it on an Intel machine running Windows, because that's what Boot Camp is... a boot loader (and driver package) that lets you run Windows natively on a Mac. Admittedly, you have to buy Windows but it's not emulation or virtualization. (I happen to work on the Boot Camp team)

Goblin Squad Member

Unseelie wrote:

Actually... running through Boot Camp, other than the need to own reboot, is EXACTLY the same as running it on an Intel machine running Windows, because that's what Boot Camp is... a boot loader (and driver package) that lets you run Windows natively on a Mac. Admittedly, you have to buy Windows but it's not emulation or virtualization. (I happen to work on the Boot Camp team)

LOl, it's even better cuz mac uses better screens.

Goblin Squad Member

Just my two copper pieces: From the sounds of it, Goblinworks said they need to focus on releasing the game first before they can think of making a Mac version. And considering I hear Paizo/Goblinworks has a lot of people that use Apple products, they have their own incentive to get Mac working as far as I know. (I'm neutral towards all this. I'm not really a fan of Apple products.)

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
avari3 wrote:
Unseelie wrote:

Actually... running through Boot Camp, other than the need to own reboot, is EXACTLY the same as running it on an Intel machine running Windows, because that's what Boot Camp is... a boot loader (and driver package) that lets you run Windows natively on a Mac. Admittedly, you have to buy Windows but it's not emulation or virtualization. (I happen to work on the Boot Camp team)

LOl, it's even better cuz mac uses better screens.

Arguable. since Windows doesn't leverage HiDPI. Everything just ends up being smaller.

Goblin Squad Member

Just posting here to let Goblinworks know there's another Mac user.

Grand Lodge Goblinworks Founder

Question for Mark:

First off, I understand this Goblinworks message from the Kickstarter comments:

Goblinworks wrote:


Goblinworks Inc. on November 27

@Paul-Henri Lampe and @Jeromy French (and others I'm sure!)

I'm writing this response on a Mac. I just got back from lunch where I watched the KS on my iPad, while txting my wife about it on my iPhone. I'm about as hard-core a Mac guy as its possible to be.

Trust me when I say that I'm praying to God to tell Jesus to ask Santa to remind Steve Jobs that I want all the software we're using to make the game to have Macintosh options. But to be completely transparent, I don't know that to be the case now, and I can't accurately project that it will be the case when we go to Beta or even into Release.

It would be less than honest for us to commit to a Mac version at this juncture. I am hopeful that we'll be able to determine if and when we will be able to do that, and it would be great if we could reach that level of comfort during this KS. But it may simply be beyond our ability to accurately estimate time, budget, or complications until the game is much further along in development.

I was wondering if you expect that the demo PO client to run on MacOS in a Windows emulator tool such as CrossOver?

Does the middleware vendor have other clients using utilities like this with any success?

I'm only asking with the hopes of seeing a barrier removed for some of the prospective Kickstarter supporters that may be holding back due to OS issues.

Cheers,
Jim

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jameow wrote:
Blizzard always releases Mac version simultaneously with windows. Guild wars 2 has a Mac beta now.greed monger promises a Mac version, Salem does too( granted its just java based or something), there are a few other promising projects also promising full support.

Perfect World also recently announced an oncoming beta client for Star Trek Online.

If you want to run Windows games without windows on your Intel Mac there's always Wine, or it's commercial version, CrossOver.

Dark Archive

Almost every game is pc only. I don't feel any pity for Mac users honestly everyone knows games aren't made for them. I had a Mac like 8 years ago got tired of trtung to find games and spending twice as much then I did. If its any consolation you guys do get neat DVD drives

Goblin Squad Member

Aarontendo wrote:
8 years ago

Your problem is here :p

It's not as bad now, it's not the same, but Mac support is rising quite rapidly because their market share is, and for lots of people, since they also run windows, it's kind of "what's the point of buying something else?" (Obviously not for those who want the superpowerwd hardware).

I've been playing planetside 2 all week on windows on my Mac, but if there's a Mac version of something, I use it more.

Dark Archive

I guess a big part of what irritates me about macs are when my uni students whine that they're broke but they bring a fancy new MacBook and iPhone 5 to class. They just look at me like I'm slow if I tell them they'd have less student debt if they got a Dell :)

Goblin Squad Member

Aarontendo wrote:
I guess a big part of what irritates me about macs are when my uni students whine that they're broke but they bring a fancy new MacBook and iPhone 5 to class. They just look at me like I'm slow if I tell them they'd have less student debt if they got a Dell :)

Not necessarily ;)

My bro did software and programming, so he bought a laptop, actually he bought a series of laptops and desktops that kept failing him, so he bought a Mac and installed windows on it and has had less problems.

I bought a cheap laptop just for when I was traveling, on the second login my password became corrupted and I couldn't get in before I had even set up a system restore (it didn't even come with one)

The Exchange

Super into this--I only have a mac, won't buy a PC or run boot camp (vote with my wallet, I guess).

Yes, there are games that don't come out on mac, but many quality games DO (all blizzard games, borderlands 2, TF2, Portal series, Civ V, et al). There's enough to keep me happy. If a game doesn't come out on OSX, I just don't play it (or grab a console version). No idea why non-mac-owners get so bent about macs and gaming.

Goblin Squad Member

Aarontendo wrote:
I guess a big part of what irritates me about macs are when my uni students whine that they're broke but they bring a fancy new MacBook and iPhone 5 to class. They just look at me like I'm slow if I tell them they'd have less student debt if they got a Dell :)

You get what you pay for, if you buy a Dell, you'll be looking for a new laptop in 3-6 months. You buy a Mac, you got a laptop for the next 4-5 years.

Goblin Squad Member

Dragonpriest wrote:
Aarontendo wrote:
I guess a big part of what irritates me about macs are when my uni students whine that they're broke but they bring a fancy new MacBook and iPhone 5 to class. They just look at me like I'm slow if I tell them they'd have less student debt if they got a Dell :)
You get what you pay for, if you buy a Dell, you'll be looking for a new laptop in 3-6 months. You buy a Mac, you got a laptop for the next 4-5 years.

I fail to see that comparison as accurate. I've seen windows laptops survive 5-8 years, I've seen macbooks die in 6 months. The only area I would say that is a solid fact, is macbooks are designed slightly to handle rough treatment better, oh and if you are not particularly computer savy, you are more likely to catch a virus on a windows PC. Of course part 2 could easilly be solved by being friends with someone who is computer savy enough to remove basic virus's. The only other arguement that could be made, is that you are more likely to need to upgrade/buy a new PC/Laptop to play the newest games. This is also a moot point (Main reason being most games that bother to support mac, have fairly good backwards scaling to allow them to be run on older systems, while most bleeding edge system requirements games that consider set the minimum system requirements high, are the ones that tend to skip over mac support.

Goblin Squad Member

Dragonpriest wrote:
Aarontendo wrote:
I guess a big part of what irritates me about macs are when my uni students whine that they're broke but they bring a fancy new MacBook and iPhone 5 to class. They just look at me like I'm slow if I tell them they'd have less student debt if they got a Dell :)
You get what you pay for, if you buy a Dell, you'll be looking for a new laptop in 3-6 months. You buy a Mac, you got a laptop for the next 4-5 years.

Only if the Mac logo survives very long. Macs are way overpriced for the low quality of the hardware. Dell is also a bad comparison, because they are very much like Apple, only they charge you a more reasonable price.


Corwynn Maelstrom wrote:

The middleware they are using contributes to that a great deal. I get what you're saying, because running through bootcamp or whatever is not ideal. But if given the choice between devoting resources to looking at the mac market (single digits gaming market) and actually making the game, I'm going to have to say that as a general rule finishing the game is going to be worth more.

Which is not to say that they won;t want to investigate it. I know they will. But it's not easy even for big companies, and Goblinworks is literally tiny.

EA/Bioware did not even announce they were working on a mac version of SWTOR until after the game launched, and they had by the last estimates around 300 million to work with on that game.

Macs kinda suck for gaming for this very reason, I'm not going to sugar coat it at all. i don't know why mac is such an issue other then the OS. Now for making music and movies mac is amazing last time I looked at one. Apple is fairly draconian when it comes to their products so that might also be an issue.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Here's the thing all you "Macs are (this or that or the other thing)" people are missing:

A cross platform client equals a larger revenue stream for the game.

A larger revenue stream for the game equals a better game overall.

Personally, I would absolutely drop several hundred dollars (watch me!) on the kickstarter/crowdfund for the game if I was guaranteed that by doing so I would have a cross platform game.

And I say that as someone who is just fine with rebooting from OS X to Win7 whenever he wants to play certain games.

All you are doing when you say "if you want to play good games, get a Windows box" is perpetuating an "us vs. them" mentality that does not help the game or the industry one bit. You are, in essence, being the jerks that used to make fun of you for liking to play roleplaying games at lunch with your friends in school.

Making the PFO game multi-platform enabled may never happen, and if it doesn't, that is an honest shame. There is absolutely no reason that anyone who wants to play the game should be refused entry to it.

Guild Wars 2 gets my money, because it is cross platform. I gave Blizzard my money for Starcraft, Diablo, and many other games for exactly that reason. I have been and always will be a Bungie fan because of their approach to the multi-platform world of gaming. Valve gets my money for that reason as well.

Personally, I like playing games. I think anyone who wants to play a game should be able to do so. I support companies that make that possible. It's pretty simple logic.

Parroting off myths and half-truths about Apple products isn't helping the game.

How about this? Instead of coming up with reasons why people with Macs shouldn't be allowed to play the game, why don't you nay-sayers start looking for ways for everyone to have fun in the game on their choice of platform? The only thing you do when you marginalize other gamers is hurt the hobby.

Spoiler:
I may be a little passionate about this. I'm really disappointed in the number of people who came into the thread just to dump all over Drakli's hopeful idea, rather than say "hey, yeah, let's all be able to play!" Seriously, people What the heck.

Goblin Squad Member

jemstone wrote:

Here's the thing all you "Macs are (this or that or the other thing)" people are missing:

A cross platform client equals a larger revenue stream for the game.

A larger revenue stream for the game equals a better game overall.

I don't think anyone is arguing that not having a mac/linux version > having a mac/linux version. The key is, having middleware etc... that accomplishes the goals is more important than multi platform. Rewriting the middleware or other software, is not feasible for GW to do. So the key is GW will release the game to every platform the middleware that does what they want, can support. We don't know what that middleware is, so we don't know what it will support. GW can't and won't code the game from scratch just for multiplatform support, that would be increasing development costs by 2,000% to gain an extra ~5% playerbase.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Exactly- the cost of supporting someone else's program in the intended environment is much less than supporting it in some other environment.

Comparisons to games costing hundreds of millions of dollars is (I imagine) flattering; but Ray Muzyka and John Riccitiello don't come down and personally beat the drums.


jemstone wrote:

Here's the thing all you "Macs are (this or that or the other thing)" people are missing:

A cross platform client equals a larger revenue stream for the game.

A larger revenue stream for the game equals a better game overall.

Personally, I would absolutely drop several hundred dollars (watch me!) on the kickstarter/crowdfund for the game if I was guaranteed that by doing so I would have a cross platform game.

And I say that as someone who is just fine with rebooting from OS X to Win7 whenever he wants to play certain games.

All you are doing when you say "if you want to play good games, get a Windows box" is perpetuating an "us vs. them" mentality that does not help the game or the industry one bit. You are, in essence, being the jerks that used to make fun of you for liking to play roleplaying games at lunch with your friends in school.

Making the PFO game multi-platform enabled may never happen, and if it doesn't, that is an honest shame. There is absolutely no reason that anyone who wants to play the game should be refused entry to it.

Guild Wars 2 gets my money, because it is cross platform. I gave Blizzard my money for Starcraft, Diablo, and many other games for exactly that reason. I have been and always will be a Bungie fan because of their approach to the multi-platform world of gaming. Valve gets my money for that reason as well.

Personally, I like playing games. I think anyone who wants to play a game should be able to do so. I support companies that make that possible. It's pretty simple logic.

Parroting off myths and half-truths about Apple products isn't helping the game.

How about this? Instead of coming up with reasons why people with Macs shouldn't be allowed to play the game, why don't you nay-sayers start looking for ways for everyone to have fun in the game on their choice of platform? The only thing you do when you marginalize other gamers is hurt the hobby.

** spoiler omitted **...

mac almost always gets games last, after the launch date, many developers tend to feel it's a waste of development time that could be better spent elsewhere. they would have to re-write the game engine its still an extra cost to develop and support that client. If the portion of the player base that would use that client are not enough to overcome the costs and be profitable, then they aren't going to do it immediately when you can just bootcamp and retain 100% of your computer's performance, you dont lose anything by using windows other than you are in a different OS. Your GPU will also work better in Windows by updating to the latest drivers.

Typically developers have to jump through a lot of hurdles with the mac osx, spend extra money to develop support for it, and depending on whether or not the middle ware game engine supports a mac client or not they may have to further wait to get the tools needed to even do a OSX version.

i for one have not touted myths and half truths, I absolutely despise apple and for very good reasons, one of which is detailed in this article talking about how plans to collect biometric data of its I device users, and then Apple is building more of the restrictions into Mac OSX.

Unfortunately, Apple is building more of the restrictions that it pioneered with iOS into Mac OS X for laptops and desktops. Apple started running the Mac App Store in early 2011 to sell Mac software. Like the iOS App Store, Apple takes a 30% cut of all software sold. The upcoming version of Mac OS X, Mountain Lion, will reportedly include warning messages that strongly discourage users from installing apps from sources other than the Mac App Store. Fortunately, it will be possible to turn this off in Mountain Lion and install apps from anywhere you want, but Apple is continuing down the dangerous road of making their products less open. OS X software authors will find themselves subject to the whims of Apple HQ. What would Mozilla do if Apple refused to authorize Firefox for OS X Mountain Lion, in the same way that Apple refuses to allow a true version of Firefox for the iPhone? Watch half their Mac market share disappear?

The Mountain Lion "Gatekeeper" code has three possible settings; the default is that only code from the Mac App Store or Identified Developers is installable;
being an "Identified Developer" requires paying $99/year and agreeing to two contracts with Apple: the Registered Apple Developer Agreement and the Mac Developer Program License Agreement, which Apple tries to keep secret Free software projects like Adium may or may not be willing or able to restrict themselves in this way.
Even if projects sign their applications as "Identified Developers", a large fraction of OS X users may set gatekeeper to "App Store only", because the UI makes that look like the "safest" option. The App Store itself has numerous problematic restrictions, including a prohibition on GPLed code (which is also a prohibition on most free software). If, say, 10-20% of OS X users pick "App Store only", Gatekeeper will reduce the market share of free software like Adium by a similar percentage.

It's true that you might accidentally install malware if you get software from outside of Apple's App Stores. But while Apple tries to test all submitted apps to see if they're malicious, they don't always succeed. The security benefits of using a signed package manager are well established. GNU/Linux distributions have been doing this since the 1990s, and it's one of the primary reasons they're known for good security. But Apple perverts these benefits when your choice to install software from other sources is taken away, and when the only available app store charges developers 30% of their potential profits.

this very well could be a reason why we have not heard of a mac version of PFO.


Ummm... I don't know what to tell mac people who think it's unfair that games only come out for the PC.

The entire PC gaming scene is dead, dead, dead as well. Generally the end date for this is set to between 2006 and 2008.

Games today are made for consoles. PC versions are only considered if the console games become or are expected to be absolutely huge. The games that remain are MMORPGs, games from certain companies (Blizzard et al), and some very few games that aim for very high graphics prestanda. The rest is indie games that reach general distribution.

Goblin Squad Member

I'll concede that there's a point to be made with the middleware statements, but I'll also go back to statements I've made in other threads on this topic - wherein I state that the simplest, most cost-effective, and most directly all-inclusive solution is now and always has been to pick an engine that delivers cross platform functionality out of the box.

Mr. Dancey has said rather directly that this was not the course they took, and (last time I checked) they were "hoping that the engine would have a mac client" by the time they were ready to go to market (or words to that effect).

My point is - to put it more accurately - that we as the potential market for the product should be saying that this is not an adequate solution, and that we would prefer that all potential players have access to the game at launch. Telling the Mac users "We want your money... just not right now" is just as marginalizing and frankly insulting as the tack that EA/Bioware has been taking with SWTOR (which is to say "we want your money, but only if you play on Windows, so go buy a Windows box or install Windows on your Mac. Oh, but if you do that, we won't support your client if something goes wrong. Have fun!" True story. Ask me about it sometime).

There are quite a few engines out there that deliver what GW has promised to deliver, and do it multi-platform. I don't know the particulars of GW's funds, or their ability to afford licenses for said engines, but I know they exist and I know that there are ways and means of delivering content on multiple platforms rather reliably.

I'm sorry if I wasn't being direct (or polite!) enough with my previous post. Long day, made only longer. I hope this more clearly gets across what I wanted to say about engines and cross-platform functionality. :)

-Quick Edit to Add-

Darsch, I don't know where you get your data, so maybe you could drop me a PM to tell me if you'd like. But, honestly, I work very closely with people at Apple and who develop for Apple, in my day job, and I have never once heard any of the claims you are making. It's possible you know something I don't, but I do follow these things very closely and what you are saying is absolutely news to me.

Not saying you're wrong, mind. Simply that in my many, many years of working with developers, I have never once heard these items in any form.

As to developers feeling it's a "waste of time," well, I think you're speaking from outmoded and outdated data, there. We could go into a long and drawn out debate about OS-Saturation numbers in the home market, and I could drag out head-end snmp polling of customers from the ISP I used to run customer service for, and we could go down the "Industry Data" lines... but I don't think that would get us anywhere.

I will say that I have never once met a developer who has said "We don't want the money that Mac users have to spend." I've met many who said "We want their money, but we don't know if we can find someone with the skills to do what we need to have done to get our game ported." I've met even more who have said "Now that Mac OS is all Unix, it should be a lot easier for us to do this" (and then have done it).

Sadly, I've met even more who have absolutely no idea that Macs run on industry standard hardware and have been using Intel processors for many years, now. At this point, the only real differences in coding (and I am aware that I'm speaking in broad strokes, here) are software based, not hardware based, which was long the primary reason that people didn't want to try the port. I've run into many, many people in the industry who simply stopped paying attention to Apple products decades ago, and honestly didn't realize until very recently (usually around the time they see an iPhone) what Apple's been up to.

True story, at a developers conference, I met a game developer who I shall not name who refused to believe that the laptop I was using was a Macintosh because - and I am quoting, here - "It's in color... when did Macs get color?"

So, yeah. Not disputing that there are factors at play. Merely stating that they don't have to be as large as people are making them, and that rather than focusing on them, we should be encouraging GW to focus on rendering them moot.

I hope that makes more sense. :)


jemstone wrote:

I'll concede that there's a point to be made with the middleware statements, but I'll also go back to statements I've made in other threads on this topic - wherein I state that the simplest, most cost-effective, and most directly all-inclusive solution is now and always has been to pick an engine that delivers cross platform functionality out of the box.

Mr. Dancey has said rather directly that this was not the course they took, and (last time I checked) they were "hoping that the engine would have a mac client" by the time they were ready to go to market (or words to that effect).

My point is - to put it more accurately - that we as the potential market for the product should be saying that this is not an adequate solution, and that we would prefer that all potential players have access to the game at launch. Telling the Mac users "We want your money... just not right now" is just as marginalizing and frankly insulting as the tack that EA/Bioware has been taking with SWTOR (which is to say "we want your money, but only if you play on Windows, so go buy a Windows box or install Windows on your Mac. Oh, but if you do that, we won't support your client if something goes wrong. Have fun!" True story. Ask me about it sometime).

There are quite a few engines out there that deliver what GW has promised to deliver, and do it multi-platform. I don't know the particulars of GW's funds, or their ability to afford licenses for said engines, but I know they exist and I know that there are ways and means of delivering content on multiple platforms rather reliably.

I'm sorry if I wasn't being direct (or polite!) enough with my previous post. Long day, made only longer. I hope this more clearly gets across what I wanted to say about engines and cross-platform functionality. :)

-Quick Edit to Add-

Darsch, I don't know where you get your data, so maybe you could drop me a PM to tell me if you'd like. But, honestly, I work very closely with people at Apple and who develop for Apple, in my day...

don't get me wrong i am all for a mac version of the game. and my sources could be wrong but i have seen to many similar articles about apples plans to be mere coincidence. but i will pm you the links. one of which is in the post i just made.

Goblin Squad Member

Darsch wrote:
don't get me wrong i am all for a mac version of the game. and my sources could be wrong but i have seen to many similar articles about apples plans to be mere coincidence. but i will pm you the links. one of which is in the post i just made.

It never even crossed my mind that you could be saying you weren't for an everyone-who-wants-it game, so no worries. Honest and for true. :)

I'll read the links tomorrow, as I've an early start tomorrow. Thanks for them!

I did read the link you put in your previous post, but as it was two-years old and referencing an issue that was long-since put to pasture, I wasn't sure if it was something you were citing as current.

I now return you happy readers to your regularly scheduled thread. :)

(Also, if we could just for a few minutes talk about how silly and hilarious it was that the really-shall-remain-nameless developer was honestly shocked... SHOCKED!... that my Macbook was using color... I mean, I think we could all use the laugh...)

Goblin Squad Member

Neverwinter Nights was released on mac. The expansions were not. How do you run the expansions on the mac version? You run a script and type a command into wine (something like that) and copy over the windows version files.

I'm just saying that they really aren't THAT different anymore. But how easy it is does depend on the middleware. I'm not saying "everyone can do it in a few moments", just they are more similar these days than people realise.


jemstone wrote:
Darsch wrote:
don't get me wrong i am all for a mac version of the game. and my sources could be wrong but i have seen to many similar articles about apples plans to be mere coincidence. but i will pm you the links. one of which is in the post i just made.

It never even crossed my mind that you could be saying you weren't for an everyone-who-wants-it game, so no worries. Honest and for true. :)

I'll read the links tomorrow, as I've an early start tomorrow. Thanks for them!

I did read the link you put in your previous post, but as it was two-years old and referencing an issue that was long-since put to pasture, I wasn't sure if it was something you were citing as current.

I now return you happy readers to your regularly scheduled thread. :)

(Also, if we could just for a few minutes talk about how silly and hilarious it was that the really-shall-remain-nameless developer was honestly shocked... SHOCKED!... that my Macbook was using color... I mean, I think we could all use the laugh...)

nah not citing it as current, just one of many issues i have had about apple. even though the issue may have been resolved its one of those wtf moments.

but the cross platform issue i agree is made much larger then it should be.

That developer though.. he had to be completely off his rocker not to be able to believe a mac was in color O.o. things have been in color as long as i can remember. I have not seen a green screen in at least 22 years.

Goblin Squad Member

Sissyl wrote:

Ummm... I don't know what to tell mac people who think it's unfair that games only come out for the PC.

The entire PC gaming scene is dead, dead, dead as well. Generally the end date for this is set to between 2006 and 2008.

Games today are made for consoles. PC versions are only considered if the console games become or are expected to be absolutely huge. The games that remain are MMORPGs, games from certain companies (Blizzard et al), and some very few games that aim for very high graphics prestanda. The rest is indie games that reach general distribution.

Except for strategy games and a number of other excellent RPGs. Consoles are very specific computers with a limited input device. I expect to see the differences shrinking further with each successive generation of consoles. PC gaming isn't dead, it's just changing. PC gaming has "died" four or five times so far, and it's still kicking along. It may not be king anymore, but that's okay. I dislike using a controller over a mouse/keyboard, but I don't rail against console players either. Of course I try to convert them because I want more people playing PC with me, but it's not that big of a deal.

I'd rather see PFO available on all platforms - my Lady owns and uses a Mac as her main computer - but if the middleware doesn't support it (but was/is the best combination of price, flexibility, and power) then I'll live with it. I'd love to see this as a stretch goal, but I am aware that there are probably some significant technical hurdles. Torchlight II hasn't launched their Mac version yet, so if we saw Macs sometime around/after release, I wouldn't be terribly surprised.


Sissyl wrote:

Ummm... I don't know what to tell mac people who think it's unfair that games only come out for the PC.

The entire PC gaming scene is dead, dead, dead as well. Generally the end date for this is set to between 2006 and 2008.

Games today are made for consoles. PC versions are only considered if the console games become or are expected to be absolutely huge. The games that remain are MMORPGs, games from certain companies (Blizzard et al), and some very few games that aim for very high graphics prestanda. The rest is indie games that reach general distribution.

i don't view pc gaming as dead, considering there are literally over a million mods for the pc version of skyrim, some of which console dlc was based off of. Add in all the mods for fall out 3 and new vegas, then you have games like witcher that just released for consoles after it had been out a couple of years for pc. kinda proves the pc is still going strong. It just a diffrent style of gaming i think.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Sissyl wrote:
Games today are made for consoles. PC versions are only considered if the console games become or are expected to be absolutely huge. The games that remain are MMORPGs, games from certain companies (Blizzard et al), and some very few games that aim for very high graphics prestanda. The rest is indie games that reach general distribution.

Actually consoles are the ones that are really on the ropes. They are really narrowly defined machines that are having a hard time competing with the smartphone and tablet apps. As long as people are using PCs for productivity purposes there will be a gaming market running parallel to that.


The_Hanged_Man wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Games today are made for consoles. PC versions are only considered if the console games become or are expected to be absolutely huge. The games that remain are MMORPGs, games from certain companies (Blizzard et al), and some very few games that aim for very high graphics prestanda. The rest is indie games that reach general distribution.
Actually consoles are the ones that are really on the ropes. They are really narrowly defined machines that are having a hard time competing with the smartphone and tablet apps. As long as people are using PCs for productivity purposes there will be a gaming market running parallel to that.

there is a reason the WII U's controller is a tablet. the xobox is getting "apps" now and windows 8 reminds me of my smartphone OS. There is a special tablet being developed for the new xbox. and its supposed to be able to synce with your smartphones unless they scraped that idea.

Goblin Squad Member

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I am a PC user and have many friends who are not, so I would also gladly add a vote (and money) to see apple products supported in this game. The more platforms supported, the better chance of expanding the initial player base.


Well this might be good news. They announced the middleware, Unity. And this quote is from their site..

Quote:

Unleash your game with effortless deployment to 10 global platforms

Create great gameplay across 10 platforms with Unity’s superbly efficient multiplatform publishing. With Unity’s powerful engine and tools, intuitive workflows and fast iteration, you have complete control to create and smoothly deploy a game on any screen.

It mentions Mac as well as apple mobile systems Here

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