Does Haste Stack with Flurry of Stars?
I don't see why it wouldn't. Flurry of Stars isn't a haste effect.
The Speed enchantment specifies that it doesn't stack with similar effects, such as a haste spell.
Flurry of Stars and the Ki Pool extra attack would stack, but they both require a swift action.
Running out of swifts.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Make sure your DM realizes that unless the ninja has greater invisibility, he should only be getting sneak damage on the first shuriken in a round, because attacking automatically kills your stealth check. The only way to keep hidden when attacking but not invisible is to use the sniping rules.Well... if the ninja wins Initiative (which he seemed to do), he will catch his target(s) flat-footed with the entirety of his attack pattern, invisible or not.
.And that is what happens when you allow multiple sneak attacks in a round.Last time I checked, 3.5, which you appear to be claiming loyalty to, allowed for multiple sneaks in a round, as well...
.However,
We had that problem yesterday - He downed 4 CR 10 dudes all by himself (Rakshasa, so not THAT able in Combat)...
His damage accumulated to around 30-40 per shuriken (Holy returning Shuriken, so they're 6d6+1d2+9... meaning he downed them all in one round, without breaking a sweat and before they could react6d6+1d2+9 averages on 31.5, which is a tad below the '30-40' you claim.
Maximum would be 47. A crit (which is not that frequent with Shurikens) adds a mere 1d2+9, for another 10-11 points.
According to PRD, your friendly vanilla Rakshasa has 115 hit points.
Which means, he needs 4 sneak hits on average for a Rakshasa; or 3 with really high damage rolls.I am not quite sure how he managed to dispatch all 4 of them in a single round, with 8 attacks, even with all of these shenanigans going on.
OP didn't actually say it was in one round, just that the ninja downed all four of them himself. The first one or two might have been in the first round, though.
From the first post of the thread:
"His damage accumulated to around 30-40 per shuriken (Holy returning Shuriken, so they're 6d6+1d2+9 (str+Enhancement Bonus+Point Blank Shot+Deadly Aim)), meaning he downed them all in one round, without breaking a sweat and before they could react (Because of his gigantic Initiative)."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would also say that a case could be made that TWF and Rapid Shot don't stack.
I would also say that a case could be made that TWF and Rapid Shot don't stack.
Rapid Shot (Combat): "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round."
A shuriken is a ranged weapon because it is a thrown weapon that is not effective in melee.
Two-Weapon Fighting: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon."
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10
As others have said, the issues is with the house rules, especially the pricing/durability houserule.
If a player came to me and said "hey, I want to throw shuriken, but I don't like the idea of them breaking all the time, could I have them more durable?" I'd point the player to the dagger.
From the first post of the thread:
"His damage accumulated to around 30-40 per shuriken (Holy returning Shuriken, so they're 6d6+1d2+9 (str+Enhancement Bonus+Point Blank Shot+Deadly Aim)), meaning he downed them all in one round, without breaking a sweat and before they could react (Because of his gigantic Initiative)."
Yeah but he had to have some insane rolls. With 8 attacks at +8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3 as was mentioned upthreads, he'd hit less than 50% of the time vs the flat-footed AC of 19 (assuming the rakshasas where completely stripped of equipment and NONE of them rolled above his initiative which in itself is unlikely), and deal an average of 31 damage per hit to an enemy with 115 hp...
Average DPR against that AC is:
( (.5*31.5) + (.05*.5*10.5) ) * 6 +
( (.25*31.5) + (.05*.25*10.5) ) * 2 =
112 vs avg rakshasa hp of 115
So even with that optimization, even with optimal circumstances (underequipped target, he wins initiative), and perfect equipment (piercing holy weapon against an evil opponent that has DR 15/good and piercing) and spending (if we disregard the houserule in question and assume they were instead +1 holy shuriken with no house rules) 2880 gp on that single routine, at average he'd NEARLY kill a single rakshasa.
I think that's comparable to a fey sorcerer being able to pull of a persistant hideous laughter against a CR10 fire giant with about 80% chance of success with no gp cost. Or use a 7th/8th level spell scroll against it which can certainly autokill it.
This isn't an issue with the base rules.
Real bo shuriken (long and straight) and semban shuruiken (flat star shaped) Are quite durable, they aren't just for throwing or distraction, but can but used for gouging and tearing. So if they are used in my game, they are durable.
Now, the issue lies with the DM setting up scenarios where this constantly works. I doubt the Raksasha in question has set up no defenses or detection system. Heck with it's change self and bluff abilities....it could do something crazy like pretend to be a party member using detect thoughts to glean information.
Real bo shuriken (long and straight) and semban shuruiken (flat star shaped) Are quite durable, they aren't just for throwing or distraction, but can but used for gouging and tearing. So if they are used in my game, they are durable.
But do you still charge 1/50th of the enchantment cost compared to all other durable weapons? That's the issue, not the durability itself.
The very reason the cost is 1/50th on ammunition is _because_ you lose it when you use it.
Dex of 26 at level 8? That seems a bit high for the character level. It also is awfully convenient that the ninja is buffed just before leaping into the fray and can still gain surprise, easily and so often. As previously cited by other posters, the ninja would have to be doing some fantastic rolling to hit with everything. I'd watch his rolls in future, just for a session or two, to be sure. The first trouble you have with this scenario is the dm emphasising fun but playing the combat scenarios out like some action movie where the ninja is the amazing protagonist who has not just everything going for him but also the situational stuff like initiative.
The other thing is the twf+rapid shot being able to mix and mesh completely. It has been approved by the devs but lets be honest, it is a stretch to interpret the two as a perfect combination. It is a ruling which I've found to be initially allowed and then very quickly over-ruled because of the sheer imbalance it created. Not to mention that its also downright ridiculous. If your dm or the other players are not ready to accomodate such a stretch of ruling, its going to go downhill really fast, in the context of overall gaming satisfaction of the other players.
The bonuses to attack would be much higher than +8. Based on the OPs setup of 26dex, alter self small, haste, and prayer:
BAB+6, Dex(28)+9, Size(small)+1, enhancement+1, haste+1, prayer+1, Point Blank Shot+1, Rapid Shot-2, Flurry-2, TWF-2 = +14/+9
Against an AC of 19 (underequipped Rakshasa) that winds up being 80%/55% accuracy.
Base Damage+1, Enhancement+1, Prayer+1, Point Blank Shot+1, Sneak attack(4d6)+14, Holy(2d6)+7 = 25 (4 on a critical)
((0.8*25)+(0.8*4*0.05*1)) = 20.16*6 = 120.96
((0.55*25)+(0.55*4*0.05*1)) = 13.86*2 = 27.72
Total: 148.68
Compare this to a rogue doing this with daggers (knifemaster) and without flurry of stars. (Invisibility due to the talent: Major Magic (vanish)).
Without flurry: 90% attack bonus for the main 4 attacks, 65% for the offhand.
Damage: Dagger(1d3)+2, Enhancement+1, Prayer+1, Point Blank Shot+1, Sneak Attack(4d8)+18, Holy(2d6)+7 = 30
((0.9*30)+(0.9*5*0.1*1)) = 27.45*4
((0.65*30)+(0.65*5*0.1*1)) = 19.825*2
Total: 149.45
In short: Being a ninja with Flurry of Stars has virtually no bearing on this when compared to a Rogue. What is relevant is the improper pricing, and the underequipped Rakshasa, and the overequipped Ninja. Even with proper pricing the Ninja/Rogue would still have 18300gp*2 for the stars/daggers and 5000gp for a Blinkback belt. That is already 8600gp over WBL and he doesnt even have armor.
- Gauss
The Equalizer:
Not really. Starting Dex of 20, +2 for levels, +4 via Cats Grace. But, the OP did not mention the Ninja had Cat's Grace so perhaps the Ninja has a Belt of Dexterity +4 (which, would push the Ninja even farther over WBL).
- Gauss
KainPen, Alter Self does cause your equipment to change size.
If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
Regarding your statement as to range. He is sneak attacking 1 target. Not 3. There is no way he will get ranged sneak attacks off on 3 targets in 3 separate rounds if they are all in the same room.
Example: Ninja/Rogue sneaks up on target 1 due to invisibility. He makes 1 sneak attack during the surprise round. Round 2 if he beats the initiative of target 1 he commences with a full-attack +sneak attack (due to the target being flat-footed). Assuming target 1 died, targets 2 and 3 now proceed to attack the Ninja/Rogue. The Ninja/Rogue will not get another full-attack ranged sneak attack unless he has some means to remove their dexterity or cause them to be flat-footed.
Because of this there is no reason he should not get to within 10feet for that first target.
- Gauss
Gauss: You're right on the attack bonus. +8 was stated upthread, I believe an additional -2 to attack +4 damage for deadly aim was included, but you're right it still should be about that high. I think the 26 dex was including alter self?
But the statement in the OP wasn't against a single target though, it was 4 rakshasas in one round, which is far beyond unlikely.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ilja: You are right, I had forgotten about the 'in one round' aspect. As for deadly aim I decided to see what the numbers would be without it since Deadly Aim is a losing proposition when making sneak attacks. -2 = +4 works fine for other classes but when making sneak attacks you want to keep the accuracy as high as possible. It just isnt worth it.
- Gauss
Have you ever seen a Catfolk Ninja with the Scout Archetype?
At level 10 they get 5d8 added to every attack due to greater invisibility.
At level 14 they get pounce, which means they are NEVER not sneak attacking.
Your Ninja was powerful because he was breaking the rules, not because he's built awesomely. However, give him two levels and the invisible blade abiliy and he'll be doing a ton of damage legitimately.
He doesn't really need magical weapons.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Don't you have to double-jump before you can burst-shuriken?
Real bo shuriken (long and straight) and semban shuruiken (flat star shaped) Are quite durable, they aren't just for throwing or distraction, but can but used for gouging and tearing. So if they are used in my game, they are durable.But do you still charge 1/50th of the enchantment cost compared to all other durable weapons? That's the issue, not the durability itself.
The very reason the cost is 1/50th on ammunition is _because_ you lose it when you use it.
No the cost is like a normal weapon not ammunition.
Also this tactic if kinda fun at lower levels but I've found that I need to be doing a bit more around the levels discussed here than sneak attack monkey. When I play something similar to this that is.
|
alter self only give him dex if he become small but does not change the the size of EQ. This he take -2 to all attack rolls with his weapons are no longer sized correctly. he no longer has any armor that fits also encumbrance and str will also come into play.
Alter self change your equipment size, it is a polymorph spell and the general rules for polymorph spells say "If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size."
(and please, don't invent abbreviations that way, guessing what you were saying was hard).|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, the DM houseruled them to be Thrown weapons for the purposes of throwing, not ammunition, because "Everyone should have his fun, ....Through a house rule everyone has fun with the exception of all other players than the ninja.
By the same principle I suppose the wizard has a staff of the magi? After all it should be worth approximately as 8 +1 holy returning unbreakable shurikens. And the figther a epic level vorpal. So everyone would have his fun. And kill nascent demon lords at level 8.
Who need mythic tiers.[grumble in the background]
Make sure your DM realizes that unless the ninja has greater invisibility, he should only be getting sneak damage on the first shuriken in a round, because attacking automatically kills your stealth check. The only way to keep hidden when attacking but not invisible is to use the sniping rules.Well... if the ninja wins Initiative (which he seemed to do), he will catch his target(s) flat-footed with the entirety of his attack pattern, invisible or not.
If I read exactly one of the OP posts the party buffed the ninja during the surprise round, without starting combat and so not alerting the targets [and that includes the bard inspire courage, something that need to be heard or seen!], so the ninja got a full round attack from stealth against surprised targets.
[teeth gnashing sound]
I wouldn't be surprised to discover that this ninja has some trick that allow him to add his dexterity bonus to damage.
Actually the OP groups should make him the party face. apparently the player can run circles around the GM and convince him that every single rule change is harmless while keeping him from seeing the big picture.
[le sigh]
Can't overpower a battlefield-controller wizard with equipments? Say that to someone with a rod of persistant metamagic, a lesser rod of quicken, a decent headband of intellect, and an improved familiar with a wand of fog cloud!
Heeelloooo 3 saves or suck per round + hard to orient for everyone!
|
There's also a slight problem trying to use eight returning weapons, as you generally need to be able to catch them. Catch the first one in your right hand, the second in your left, the third... in your teeth maybe? Chucking multiple shuriken (in the rules this is, not RL) is down to drawing and firing them like ammunition - not the ability to hold a half-dozen in your hand at once. So there seems to be an additional house rule in play there too.
|
|
If you are allowed custom magic items you can create an item that would solve the magic shuriken problem.
Create a pouch of abundant ammunition, at spell level 1 and caster level 1 the math comes out to 1*1*2000*2*2 multiplying by 2 twice for a slotless item and because of the duration of the spell it comes out to about 8k gp. If you cast greater magic weapon on the bag it confers a +1 bonus for every 4 caster levels so at lvl 8 you should get a +2 bonus. Price for having that cast by a wizard commercially would be spell level*caster level*10 so 3*8*10=240 add on 7500 for casting permanency and you have a pouch of abundant ammunition that holds +2 shurikens for 15740 give or take some gold.
Permanency on Greater magic weapon?
Not allowed AFAIK.The gloves of throwing are a suggested custom magic item, I suppose.