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Ahh, here we go.
Great White Whale + Anthropomorphic Animal.
You now have 50 strength. Trivial to get to 53+.
Wish, Heal, Wish, Heal, Wish, Heal, etc.
Play a Sorcerer, so you can use Fabricate + Blood Money to make all the money you want. Use that for Runestones of Power and Pages of Spellknowledge. Even if you don't let it work with Fabricate, Wish should certainly cover Fabricating something from nothing as long as it is under 10k.
Worst case you buy a Runestone of Power (9th) so you can cast 5 Wishes in a row. Wizards actually have a much harder time at this, since they need a standard action to get back a 9th level spell with a Pearl of Power.
Anyhow, +5 to all stats and a bunch of other stuff is easy now.
So, about this blood money spell - I have a Pathfinder Society character (a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer of the Martyr Bloodline) for whom this would be perfect. Given that the Additional Resources page allows you to download at least parts of the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition (from which the spell comes), is this some kind of exception to the rule that I have to own a copy of the source to use non-Core contents in Pathfinder Society play?
Orc Crosblooded Sorcerer with Orc and Draconic bloodlines 16 levels, dragon disciple 4 levels.
22 base (18+4)
+4 Dragon Disciple
+6 Inherent from Bloodline
+6 Enhancement
+5 Levels
+10 size form of dragon 3
Total: 53
Added Bonus: Form of dragon is bloodline spell, so is wish. No weird wonky stuff, all thematic.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lifat wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Rudy2 wrote: ...and only 300 if your DM lets you buy Lesser Restoration wands made by a paladin... Wands made by paladins aren't cheaper to buy. They can be cheaper to make, but not to buy. The crafting cost is determined by the crafter, but the market price is set, and that's based on the primary class that casts the spell (cleric in this case). Not true according to RAW! "Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item."
This is taken directly from the section on "magic item gold piece value".
So technically the inclusion of paladin/bard/summoner/ranger and other such casters have made certain magic items WAY cheaper because of the lower spell level. At least by RAW.
I would however run it exactly the way you said. I just know that it isn't RAW. Odd. I must have misremembered.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote: So, about this blood money spell - I have a Pathfinder Society character (a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer of the Martyr Bloodline) for whom this would be perfect. Given that the Additional Resources page allows you to download at least parts of the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition (from which the spell comes), is this some kind of exception to the rule that I have to own a copy of the source to use non-Core contents in Pathfinder Society play? Where are you seeing the spell downloadable???
As I said, the Additional Resources page, where, on almost exactly the same level as the search bar beneath the "RPG Superstar 2014" logo, is indigo text saying "Download the rules and Chronicle sheets" - although when I downloaded that, I only got the Chronicle sheets. Did I misunderstand what they meant by the "rules" part?
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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote: As I said, the Additional Resources page, where, on almost exactly the same level as the search bar beneath the "RPG Superstar 2014" logo, is indigo text saying "Download the rules and Chronicle sheets" - although when I downloaded that, I only got the Chronicle sheets. Did I misunderstand what they meant by the "rules" part? You can download the rules and chronicle sheet for if you are running RotRL for PFS credit. That download won't have any information about the spells or any other crunch from the book - you actually need to get the book for that.
Personally, I love the fact that in order to get access to the spell blood money in PFS, you have to shell out a lot of IRL money. It seems awfully thematic.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote: Did I misunderstand what they meant by the "rules" part? Yes and no.
The rule in question is "how can I use the rules in Blood Money spell on my character."
You can download the "how" but to use it you also need the "effect" which you need to own RotRL Anniversary Edition book.
Because I'm playing a mystic theurge, I have begun to wonder what the implications are with this spell and raise dead. I wouldn't keep this spell array prepped all the time, but with a day I could do this:
Str starts at 7
Cast Bulls str, (11)
cast blood money + raise dead (1)
cast lesser restoration, str at 2-5 (2)
cast blood money (1)
restoration to restore all strength(11)
blood money to for another restore (9)
restoration to restore negeative level to dead guy (9)
lesser restoration to restore my last blood money (10 or 11)
For 3 first level spells, 3 second level spells, 2 fourth level spells, and one 5th level spell and six rounds of casting, everyone is sound as a pound. That is a heave spell investment, but by no means wipes me out for the day as a mystic theurge. I still have almost my entire wizard arsenal, and only a 25% chance of being down 1 str point until my next rest.
I'll have to toss that by my DM and see if he thinks that is a problem.
You can't take str damage to anything but your natural score. At least that's how I see it and rule it. So if you're a wizard at str 7, 7 is exactly the mount of STR points you have to spend on this spell. Enhancements and any other adds don't count.
LazarX wrote: You can't take str damage to anything but your natural score. At least that's how I see it and rule it. So if you're a wizard at str 7, 7 is exactly the mount of STR points you have to spend on this spell. Enhancements and any other adds don't count. Can you explain why you think this is true?
CWheezy wrote: LazarX wrote: You can't take str damage to anything but your natural score. At least that's how I see it and rule it. So if you're a wizard at str 7, 7 is exactly the mount of STR points you have to spend on this spell. Enhancements and any other adds don't count. Can you explain why you think this is true? Bonuses from belts, spells, etc. are an external boost, they aren't part of your natural score. The intention of the spell is that you are spending part of YOURSELF to power the spell, so the STR to be damaged has to come from your natural score. That seems to me the RAI for the creation of this spell. It was certainly not intended to be used by number crunching rules lawyers to get free wishes or other powerful magic.
IF a GM WANTS to rule differently, and open up the floodgates for abuse of the spell, more power to them.
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LazarX wrote: You can't take str damage to anything but your natural score. At least that's how I see it and rule it. I think this would be a fair house rule.
You can offset 4 of the ability damage with a Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess. That effectively nets you +8 str.
[edit]
And it's only 2k gold.
Warhaven wrote: You can offset 4 of the ability damage with a Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess. That effectively nets you +8 str.
[edit]
And it's only 2k gold.
The damage is instantaneous. You can't use the reservoir to add to your STR score, only to speed recovery from the damage of casting the blood money spell.
Um...You use it the round before it before as it explicitly last until the end of your next turn.
"The wearer can speak the second command word to imbue herself with a great burst of physical prowess, depleting all remaining charges and gaining an inherent bonus to one physical ability score equal to twice the number of charges used. This bonus lasts until the end of the wearer's next turn."
Please read the source material as I take great pains to make sure everything is on the level and while I don't mind having flaws pointed out to me (since they can then be corrected) it is rather annoying to have to point out what the item itself actually says.
(I really am quite proud of that find.)
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LazarX wrote:
Bonuses from belts, spells, etc. are an external boost, they aren't part of your natural score. The intention of the spell is that you are spending part of YOURSELF to power the spell, so the STR to be damaged has to come from your natural score. That seems to me the RAI for the creation of this spell. It was certainly not intended to be used by number crunching rules lawyers to get free wishes or other powerful magic.
IF a GM WANTS to rule differently, and open up the floodgates for abuse of the spell, more power to them.
So if I am a wizard with 7 strength, and a +6 strength belt, do i fall unconscious from poison at 7 damage or 13 damage?
If I am a fighter with 14 con and a +6 belt, do i die at -14 or -20?
Also: This rule you are saying doesn't actually effect the power of blood money, because spells like marionette possession and magic jar exist
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LazarX wrote: Bonuses from belts, spells, etc. are an external boost, they aren't part of your natural score. The intention of the spell is that you are spending part of YOURSELF to power the spell, so the STR to be damaged has to come from your natural score. That seems to me the RAI for the creation of this spell. It was certainly not intended to be used by number crunching rules lawyers to get free wishes or other powerful magic.
IF a GM WANTS to rule differently, and open up the floodgates for abuse of the spell, more power to them.
Keep in mind that neither Temporary Ability Bonuses nor Ability Damage actually increase/decrease the stat itself; they change your effective ability modifier when applied to DCs and Rolls according to the Dev team.
If Blood Money caused Strength Drain, that would be a different story since that actually does reduce the ability score itself. But a temporary bonus will counteract the effect on the modifier while a permanent bonus will increase the ability score outright so both are effective for sinking Str damage from the spell. So just having a stronger body makes you better able to handle the damage caused by the spell. "Do u even lift, brah? Oh, u magic... dat's coo."
You can't use blood money to cast restoration, as it has a casting time of over one round. You have to complete the second spell in the round immediately after casting blood money.
I don't see anything in the rules suggesting that ability damage can't be taken against enhancement bonuses and such. You can have much more ability damage than you have ability, it just doesn't matter much once you reach zero.
I don't think the parallel with hit points at which you're considered "dead" is exact, because that's not really the same thing as ability damage. To put it another way: Even if I ruled that you couldn't use blood money and take more damage than your raw strength score, excluding enhancement bonuses, I'd still consider you alive at -18 if you had a base con of 14 and a +6 belt, because while you've got that belt on (assuming it's been on at least 24 hours, maybe, depending on how you interpret a recent FAQ), you have a con of 20.
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Actually... on reconsideration, I think Lazar was correct, but only regarding temporary bonuses.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration. Taking into consideration that a Temporary Ability Bonus doesn't "actually" increase the ability score until it graduates to a Permanent Ability Bonus, even if you have a base of 15 Str and temporary bonuses totaling to +50, you can still only take 14 Strength Damage before you are KOed. But once those temporary bonuses become permanent, you're considered to have 65 Str so you can take up to 64 Str Damage before KO.
seebs wrote: You can't use blood money to cast restoration, as it has a casting time of over one round. Oh good catch, it would have to be quickened. That would almost certainly delay this tactic until the party could afford a rod.
LazarX's suggestion would be a house rule, but one that as a player I would be okay with. I would not be okay with a dm trying to change all sorts of rules about how stat bonuses and penalties work, but if this was a specific fix to keep one spell from being abused, that would be okay by me.
I ran some of the ideas by my dm, and he relished the idea of me inflicting strength damage on myself. =)
Personally speaking I would simply hardcap blood money on 5k gold, because otherwise it is simply to good.
CWheezy wrote:
Also: This rule you are saying doesn't actually effect the power of blood money, because spells like marionette possession and magic jar exist
Not a problem. Since you don't have access to your natural Strength while in a magic jar or another body, any attempt to cast Blood Money in those circumstances simply fails.
And yes, before Zhayne or someone else points it out, it IS another house rule on my part.
Lifat wrote: Personally speaking I would simply hardcap blood money on 5k gold, because otherwise it is simply to good. pfff.. then I will just research a 4th lvl version of the spell that doesn't have to deal with that random limitation on RAW.
Lifat wrote: Personally speaking I would simply hardcap blood money on 5k gold, because otherwise it is simply to good. Capping it is not good enough if you still allow players to use magical bonuses to pay for it. Given that STR is pretty much the last priority stat among most wizards and sorcerers, it's no real cost at all.
AnnoyingOrange wrote: Lifat wrote: Personally speaking I would simply hardcap blood money on 5k gold, because otherwise it is simply to good. pfff.. then I will just research a 4th lvl version of the spell that doesn't have to deal with that random limitation on RAW. And if it were my game I would tell you that such research would be futile and wouldn't work.
Lifat wrote: AnnoyingOrange wrote: Lifat wrote: Personally speaking I would simply hardcap blood money on 5k gold, because otherwise it is simply to good. pfff.. then I will just research a 4th lvl version of the spell that doesn't have to deal with that random limitation on RAW. And if it were my game I would tell you that such research would be futile and wouldn't work. I would simply ban bloodmoney to start with, the idea of learning a 2nd lvl spell to bypass material components as a balancing factor is somewhat ridiculous from a game balance perspective. Few people are concerned with that though.
AnnoyingOrange wrote: Lifat wrote: AnnoyingOrange wrote: Lifat wrote: Personally speaking I would simply hardcap blood money on 5k gold, because otherwise it is simply to good. pfff.. then I will just research a 4th lvl version of the spell that doesn't have to deal with that random limitation on RAW. And if it were my game I would tell you that such research would be futile and wouldn't work. I would simply ban bloodmoney to start with, the idea of learning a 2nd lvl spell to bypass material components as a balancing factor is somewhat ridiculous from a game balance perspective. Few people are concerned with that though. And I would have no problem with a GM that banned this spell.
I don't see it as broken when used to fx. cast true seeing without the annoying and very limiting component cost. Or for stoneskin or other such spells. The cap could be discussed, but the reason I would put it there is to prevent the most blatant of abuses (for an example free money with wish).
Lifat wrote: AnnoyingOrange wrote: Lifat wrote: AnnoyingOrange wrote: Lifat wrote: Personally speaking I would simply hardcap blood money on 5k gold, because otherwise it is simply to good. pfff.. then I will just research a 4th lvl version of the spell that doesn't have to deal with that random limitation on RAW. And if it were my game I would tell you that such research would be futile and wouldn't work. I would simply ban bloodmoney to start with, the idea of learning a 2nd lvl spell to bypass material components as a balancing factor is somewhat ridiculous from a game balance perspective. Few people are concerned with that though. And I would have no problem with a GM that banned this spell.
I don't see it as broken when used to fx. cast true seeing without the annoying and very limiting component cost. Or for stoneskin or other such spells. The cap could be discussed, but the reason I would put it there is to prevent the most blatant of abuses (for an example free money with wish). Stone skin and true seeing I house ruled:
stoneskin can be cast without material component but only lasts 1 round per level if done so.
true seeing can be cast without material component but is personal and only lasts 1 round per level.
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