Blood Money + Wish = almost free wish? Am I reading this right?


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Shoot I was just going to ask, "Wouldn't an Undead caster be able to really abuse this?" then I saw "No spell for you, Undead Caster!"


Magic Jar can get you a whole bunch of strength and your starting strength doesn't matter. Also, YOU don't take a the damage. Easiest flunky is a Summon, but there are many options.

From there you start adding strength from other spells. Hitting 52 strength takes some work, but is far from impossible.

Liberty's Edge

VRMH wrote:
ikki3520 wrote:
Create a simulacrum and have the simulacrum be willingly possessed with a magic jar.
That requires the target to have a soul, and I'm not sure Simulacra have one. If they do, then selling their souls would be an easier way to raise the money for a wish.

You can add the question: "simulacrum have real blood"?

blood money say: "Spellcasters who do not have blood cannot cast blood money, and those who are immune to Strength damage (such as undead spellcasters) cannot use blood money to create valuable material components."
Ssimulacrum say: "Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow." and "A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum."

I don't think there is blood anywhere in that.


Yeah, that's why you use a summon. Easier that way. Or an Anthropomorphic Elephant or something.

You can use it with Fabricate to get lots of diamond dust or whatever material you might need as well.

A single Heal spell takes care of the damage if you are using something that is kept around.

With another caster handling the Heals you can do as many wishes in a row as you can prepare.

Liberty's Edge

Anzyr wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Glutton wrote:
Looks like Ring of Inner Fortitude pays for itself in a hurry then doesn't it?
If you can't take ability damage, the Blood Money spell does not work.

You are taking the ability damage, if you weren't then Ring of Inner Fortitude wouldn't work. You take the damage, then the Ring reduces it. Blood Money doesn't care if you reduce the STR damage your taking it only cares if:

"Spellcasters who do not have blood cannot cast blood money, and those who are immune to Strength damage (such as undead spellcasters) cannot use blood money to create valuable material components."

Since the Ring does not make you immune to STR damage, this combination is quite potent.

It care a lot about you getting the strength damage.

The point of strength damage is a cost to get the component. You don't pay the cost? You don't get the component.
You only get 44 points of strength damage thank to the ring? You get a 22.000 gp diamond and wish fail.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Glutton wrote:
Looks like Ring of Inner Fortitude pays for itself in a hurry then doesn't it?

I doubt it will work.

The point of strength damage is a cost to get the component. You don't pay the cost? You don't get the component.
You only get 44 points of strength damage thank to the ring? You get a 22.000 gp diamond and wish fail.

By RAW it certainly works, since you aren't immune to damage. The Ring of Inner Fortitude just reduces damage, which is very different. The same difference between Fire Immunity and Fire Resistance.

Though it isn't necessary. Just use it with Fabricate and Heals to get the expensive components you need ahead of time.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Andoric wrote:

Mystic Theurge to the rescue! Wiz/Clr/Mystic Theurge

Step -1: Cast Blood Money to avoid the Restoration material costs.
Step 0: Cast Contingency: Restoration - if I suffer any new ability damage after this point.
Step 1: Cast Blood Money - take 52 points of Str damage
Step 1a: Contingency kicks in, immediately and instantly curing all the Str damage
Step 2: Cast Wish for free.
Step 3: Watch as DM suddenly has your deity bless you with no longer having blood, but another substance in your body. Substance functions exactly as blood except is not suitable for Blood Money.

This could be very handy in our Carrion Crown game. Thanks!

FYI - agreed, if you reduce the ability damage, you're not paying the spell's cost (as opposed to mitigating its effects). And it deals 51 Strength damage (1 + 1/500gp in component cost, round down), so you need a 52 Strength.


Majuba wrote:
FYI - agreed, if you reduce the ability damage, you're not paying the spell's cost (as opposed to mitigating its effects). And it deals 51 Strength damage (1 + 1/500gp in component cost, round down), so you need a 52 Strength.

This would be a house rule. If the spell is doing ability damage to you, then clearly you aren't immune to ability damage. Immunity is a pretty clear thing in the game. You don't count as immune if you are resistant or the like.

I think a better house rule would be just changing the text to state you gain 500gp worth a material for each point of damage you take that cannot be reduced or avoided in any way. That's much clearer.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Drachasor wrote:
Majuba wrote:
FYI - agreed, if you reduce the ability damage, you're not paying the spell's cost (as opposed to mitigating its effects). And it deals 51 Strength damage (1 + 1/500gp in component cost, round down), so you need a 52 Strength.
This would be a house rule. If the spell is doing ability damage to you, then clearly you aren't immune to ability damage. Immunity is a pretty clear thing in the game. You don't count as immune if you are resistant or the like.

Nothing to do with being immune. The spell isn't doing ability damage to you, it's requiring it of you to cast the spell. It's a pre-condition, not an effect.

Drachasor wrote:
I think a better house rule would be just changing the text to state you gain 500gp worth a material for each point of damage you take that cannot be reduced or avoided in any way. That's much clearer.

Not quite accurate (it's one point of damage plus one for each full 500gp in material cost), but much clearer, yes.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Rudy2 wrote:
...and only 300 if your DM lets you buy Lesser Restoration wands made by a paladin...
Wands made by paladins aren't cheaper to buy. They can be cheaper to make, but not to buy. The crafting cost is determined by the crafter, but the market price is set, and that's based on the primary class that casts the spell (cleric in this case).

Under Cooperative Crafting is the text:

Quote:
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

So the price is the low Paladin price even if made by a Cleric.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Drachasor wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Glutton wrote:
Looks like Ring of Inner Fortitude pays for itself in a hurry then doesn't it?

I doubt it will work.

The point of strength damage is a cost to get the component. You don't pay the cost? You don't get the component.
You only get 44 points of strength damage thank to the ring? You get a 22.000 gp diamond and wish fail.

By RAW it certainly works, since you aren't immune to damage. The Ring of Inner Fortitude just reduces damage, which is very different. The same difference between Fire Immunity and Fire Resistance.

Though it isn't necessary. Just use it with Fabricate and Heals to get the expensive components you need ahead of time.

Drachasor, look how the rules work in general. If you don't pay a cost you don't get a benefit. The cost here are points of strength damage. If you don't get them, you don't get the benefit.

Nothing to do with with the difference between immunity and resistance.

blood money wrote:
Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage, plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.).


I don't think that's quite a general rule. Some costs can be mitigated. You still get the benefits even if you reduce the cost, and even if it's reduced to zero.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Diego Rossi, et al, are wrong.

Immunity is well defined in the game. A ring of inner fortitude doesn't grant you immunity of any kind, does not stop you from bleeding, being poisoned, or any other effect that may cause ability damage. It merely reduces the ability damage you take.

Worlds of difference. It may not work the way you WANT, but that's no reason to mislead others.


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To elaborate a bit on what RD said...

Diego Rossi wrote:

Drachasor, look how the rules work in general. If you don't pay a cost you don't get a benefit. The cost here are points of strength damage. If you don't get them, you don't get the benefit.

Nothing to do with with the difference between immunity and resistance.

blood money wrote:
Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage, plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.).

No, that's how rules work IN PARTICULAR. There's a reason why limits on such things have to be spelled out, because there are a lot of ways to potentially avoid them. In several cases, this can be done for free with the right setup. So it is hardly universal. The lack of a general rule is why they detail it for various situations.

The Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is similar.

To say nothing of the fact there are numerous things that reduce normally fixed costs -- and note the Ring of Inner Fortitude doesn't PREVENT damage, it REDUCES damage (notable diff). So it is a bit arbitrary to declare that suddenly they don't work here. Granted, in the case of an OP spell like Blood Money it makes sense to rein it in, but that doesn't mean the reins are RAW. Sadly, you gotta rein it in with house rules.


Cevah wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Rudy2 wrote:
...and only 300 if your DM lets you buy Lesser Restoration wands made by a paladin...
Wands made by paladins aren't cheaper to buy. They can be cheaper to make, but not to buy. The crafting cost is determined by the crafter, but the market price is set, and that's based on the primary class that casts the spell (cleric in this case).

Under Cooperative Crafting is the text:

Quote:
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

So the price is the low Paladin price even if made by a Cleric.

/cevah

How does this work with lesser restoration? A level 3 cleric can cast a lesser restoration spell which requires a level 4 paladin. But the paladin is caster level 1 while the cleric is caster level 3. If the rule said caster level then I could see the paladin setting price or if it said lowest level character then I would say the cleric would set the price, but does "level" in "lowest possible level caster" refer to character level or caster level? Either way appears to me to be completely supportable by RAW.


i thought the wish was determined at the time you cast it, and its only a 1 action cast, so wouldnt you be casting wish as *spell* and drop unconscious after the wish triggered? i'm pretty sure thats how it works, blood money to cast wish to do x and get knocked out. in which case yea, thats epic.

EDIT: redacted, i read it another time or two, and blood money comes out when you create the components for wish, not upon casting, and fall uncoincious for the rest of your turn during that round. maybe if you find some way to extend blood money by a few rounds with a metamagic or something?


cnetarian wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Rudy2 wrote:
...and only 300 if your DM lets you buy Lesser Restoration wands made by a paladin...
Wands made by paladins aren't cheaper to buy. They can be cheaper to make, but not to buy. The crafting cost is determined by the crafter, but the market price is set, and that's based on the primary class that casts the spell (cleric in this case).

Under Cooperative Crafting is the text:

Quote:
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

So the price is the low Paladin price even if made by a Cleric.

/cevah

How does this work with lesser restoration? A level 3 cleric can cast a lesser restoration spell which requires a level 4 paladin. But the paladin is caster level 1 while the cleric is caster level 3. If the rule said caster level then I could see the paladin setting price or if it said lowest level character then I would say the cleric would set the price, but does "level" in "lowest possible level caster" refer to character level or caster level? Either way appears to me to be completely supportable by RAW.

Well, per Creating Wands, a paladin's 1st level wand is the same price as a cleric's 1st level wand, they use the caster level not the class level.

/cevah


Soul wrote:

i thought the wish was determined at the time you cast it, and its only a 1 action cast, so wouldnt you be casting wish as *spell* and drop unconscious after the wish triggered? i'm pretty sure thats how it works, blood money to cast wish to do x and get knocked out. in which case yea, thats epic.

EDIT: redacted, i read it another time or two, and blood money comes out when you create the components for wish, not upon casting, and fall uncoincious for the rest of your turn during that round. maybe if you find some way to extend blood money by a few rounds with a metamagic or something?

Again... this is why you need 51 STR rather then 50 STR. If you only have 50 STR and try to Blood Money + Wish... you'll be passing out a lot.


I haven't read every last post, so forgive me if this was already said, but the effects if the spell are instantaneous. When your STR damage hits your score, you pass out. You can't interrupt the spell with a readied Restoration, then keep spending more strength. That it, you don't spend 10 points of STR, then get restored, then keep going.

Likewise, you couldn't "time" the Restoration for "when I hit 1 STR", because you don't take 1 point of damage consecutively, you are dealt it all at once.

You wouldn't argue that a readied or contingent Cure spell could trigger at 1 HP and save someone from being dealt 50 damage and dropping to -20 - the damage is dealt all at once.


I know you said you didn't read every last post, but if you had read the actual last post (mine above) you would see that there is a reason why the goal is 51 STR rather than 50.


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I know people have done some ways to hit 52 strength. Just wanted to point out that it is very, very easy to get high strength.

Hmm, Anthropomorphic (3rd level) Elephant, Strength 30.
Magic Jar in (5th level).

Form of the Dragon III (8th level spell), +10 Size Bonus to Strength; 40 strength.

Heart of the Mammoth (8th level spell), +8 enhancement bonus to strength; 48.

Blood Rage (3rd level) for another +10 (morale). So that's 58.

Pretty easy for a 17th level caster. Just buy an elephant...or use Summon Monster VI.

You can easily go higher. You might be able to hit 70 strength with some actual work.


Oh wow... that is a great find on Heart of Mammoth! *goes to update the list* It's even on lots of spell lists so it's pretty easy to get to!

That's actually very helpful since it makes the start up cheaper, as I was previously using Belt of Physical Perfection. Shame it's only rounds/level but still good stuff.

Some other ways to push STR higher including having a Courageous Weapon to get another +2 STR from Blood Rage. Eaglesoul which offers a +4 Sacred Bonus and Pesh which can give you 1 to 2 STR.


Yeah, there are stronger animals too. I picked an Elephant since I know you can buy them. So it could be something you keep around.

A Brachiosaurus has 37 strength. Summon Monster VII. (A Mastadon, which might be easier to buy, has 34 and is also SM VII). I think that's about the strongest animal you can easily get.

So 7+2+4+1=14 more strength (possibly 15). That gets you up to 72 or 73!

Of course, the higher you go, the more special stuff you can add on to the wish.

Though, this is also probably relevant for turning your Wizard into a badass melee murder machine.

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To me the best way to "control" blood money is to enforce just how freakin' rare the spell should be.

-It's setting specific to Golarion, so a GM has every right to exclude it from other worlds.
-It's from the Rise of the Runelords AP, and in that entire AP the only person who has a copy is

Spoiler:
Runelord Karzoug himself.
Good luck with that.
-Given that we're talking about rare lost Thassilonian magic, I think a GM has every right to severly restrict how easy it would be to research such a spell. Seems to me you'd need to be a Thassilon-style specialist, entirely "greedy" on the sin scale, and it would still probably take decades of piecing together lost lore.

It just seems like these threads assume that every other level 1 wizard is walking around with this spell in his or her spellbook when that's just not supported by the setting fluff at all. Finding a copy of this spell should be like finding a lesser artifact.


You won't get as much strength from a polymorphed elephant as you think.

First you apply the size adjustments from the un-numbered table on CRB page 212. Elephants are huge so you subtract 8 strength 4 con and add 4 dex to their stats before applying any polymorph spell.


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Point is, Ryric, it is so broken the only sensible thing is to ban it. Or to have the campaign end when it is discovered.


Atarlost wrote:

You won't get as much strength from a polymorphed elephant as you think.

First you apply the size adjustments from the un-numbered table on CRB page 212. Elephants are huge so you subtract 8 strength 4 con and add 4 dex to their stats before applying any polymorph spell.

Ahh, I didn't know about that wrinkle. Still a Mastadon goes to a 26 base strength like that, so that leaves you with 54 rather than the 58 I had for an Elephant.


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Peter Stewart wrote:
Yes, it can be done with enough investment in strength or enough active spells (especially from some paperback sources). Seems like a fairly nitche trick in most campaigns, and the type of thing most Gms would shoot down or associate with some unforeseen difficulties.

Like having Kurgess show up every tiome someone manages to get his strength above 50 and immedietly challenging the one to an armwresting match.

A challenge you can't decline of corse. He's a deity after all.


+1 to what Ryric said.

I'd probably include a secret cumulative and permanent -1 to saves & SR vs. Thassilonian & Aboleth spells for each casting or similar to reinforce the "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is" rule of most realities.

-TimD


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Seems like there's another thread about blood money abuse every week. Seems like a good reason to just not allow that particular spell.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Seems like there's another thread about blood money abuse every week. Seems like a good reason to just not allow that particular spell.

It's definately an option, and a reasonable one. I know a lot of GMs wouldn't allow it by virtue of being an AP spell - many of them only allow hardcover rulebooks in the first place.

On the other hand, it's a potentially extremely flavorful spell that someone less inclined towards abuse could make good use of later - especially if they recovered it as some ancient relic of Thassilonian magic. Most of the time I think you'll see it used for stoneskin, minor divinations, and perhaps at the extreme end a limited wish, which depending on the level is probably ok.

Like many things, it only breaks when you try and break it.


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cleric 1/ mystic theurge 10 / wizard 7

cast Eagle soul
Magic jar a cloud giant (str is now 35)
bravely take on a kobold, use eagle soul to surge for +4 sacred bonus to strength. (str is now 39)
cast form of the dragon for +10 ize to str (str is now 49)
cast blood rage for a +10 morale bonus (st is now 59)
cast heart of the mammoth for a + 8 enhancement bonus (str is now 67)

I was hoping to get it over 100 so that you could go two consecutive wishes, but I can't think of anything else. An evil cleric might find a way to get higher profane bonuses through deadly jaugernaut or deth knell, but I am not as famiiar with those spells.


Peter Stewart wrote:
Like many things, it only breaks when you try and break it.

Another way of looking at it is, "like many things, it's easily broken due to sloppy rules wording and lack of destructive playtesting before implementation," but, yeah.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Like many things, it only breaks when you try and break it.
Another way of looking at it is, "like many things, it's easily broken due to sloppy rules wording and lack of destructive playtesting before implementation," but, yeah.

And breaking it can be really fun. At least in forums.

alchemist 1 / cleric 1/ mystic theurge 10 / wizard 7

cast Eagle soul
Magic jar a ravager(str is now 50)
bravely take on a kobold, use eagle soul to surge for +4 sacred bonus to strength. (str is now 54)
cast form of the dragon for +10 size to str (str is now 64)
cast blood rage for a +10 morale bonus (str is now 74)
cast heart of the mammoth for a + 8 enhancement bonus (str is now 82)
drink mutagen fo +4 alchemical bonus to strength (str is now 86)

If you can magic jar Cuthulu, str would be at 91. Someone please eek out that last 10 points to get to 101. And figure out how you can magic jar cuthulu, even if your wish has to be "I wish I had never messed with Cuthulu."


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Melvin, that's exactly the kind of stuff that, if I were publishing a rulebook, I'd pay someone to think about.


Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Like many things, it only breaks when you try and break it.
Another way of looking at it is, "like many things, it's easily broken due to sloppy rules wording and lack of destructive playtesting before implementation," but, yeah.

And breaking it can be really fun. At least in forums.

alchemist 1 / cleric 1/ mystic theurge 10 / wizard 7

cast Eagle soul
Magic jar a ravager(str is now 50)
bravely take on a kobold, use eagle soul to surge for +4 sacred bonus to strength. (str is now 54)
cast form of the dragon for +10 size to str (str is now 64)
cast blood rage for a +10 morale bonus (str is now 74)
cast heart of the mammoth for a + 8 enhancement bonus (str is now 82)
drink mutagen fo +4 alchemical bonus to strength (str is now 86)

If you can magic jar Cuthulu, str would be at 91. Someone please eek out that last 10 points to get to 101. And figure out how you can magic jar cuthulu, even if your wish has to be "I wish I had never messed with Cuthulu."

Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent bonus. Boon from a Succubus is a +2 Profane bonus. You can grab another 1-2 Alchemical bonus to STR from Pesh.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Like many things, it only breaks when you try and break it.
Another way of looking at it is, "like many things, it's easily broken due to sloppy rules wording and lack of destructive playtesting before implementation," but, yeah.

To be honest, I'd rather the effort that could go into that kind of 'destructive playtesting' instead go into designing additional material. There are some things that come out which are damaging to game balance when used as intended which I don't like to see (e.g. antagonize), but having Paizo spend a bunch of time and effort making sure there are no exploits that someone dedicated to doing so can use seems like a waste of time. I've never actually sat down at a table with players like that, or with a GM that would let players get away with that.

I don't play that way, the designers don't play that way, and if you and your group does play that way I don't really see the issue, as long as you are having fun.

If Pathfinder was a computer game or something - an MMO or something like Diablo - I would be more sympathetic, but the human element mitigates the need in my opinion.

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Even thorough playtesting doesn't always help due to human nature. I was once in a line at GenCon behind some guys who were playtesters for another game. They were laughing about how they would find broken combos and deliberately not report them so they could use the brokeness in organized play once the books came out.

No amount of playtesting can stop dedicated jerks.


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There's a fun little money-earning trick that doesn't pull too many shenanigans. Blood Money for Masterwork Transformation. It's 150 gp per day, provided you can find somebody who wants to buy a bunch of masterwork daggers.

RAI, I would expect that preventing damage involves not losing the blood, and thus just paying extra until the caster has taken the required damage. RAW, though, the ring works.

Overall, I don't think the spell is a problem. It allows Stoneskin and other spells to see the light of day even by money-grubbing wizards. Not to mention the much-maligned symbol spells!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Peter Stewart wrote:
I've never actually sat down at a table with players like that, or with a GM that would let players get away with that.

Oh, I don't know, I'd probably allow it... and then invoke the massive damage rules...

Liberty's Edge

Drachasor wrote:

I know people have done some ways to hit 52 strength. Just wanted to point out that it is very, very easy to get high strength.

Hmm, Anthropomorphic (3rd level) Elephant, Strength 30.
Magic Jar in (5th level).

Form of the Dragon III (8th level spell), +10 Size Bonus to Strength; 40 strength.

Heart of the Mammoth (8th level spell), +8 enhancement bonus to strength; 48.

Blood Rage (3rd level) for another +10 (morale). So that's 58.

Pretty easy for a 17th level caster. Just buy an elephant...or use Summon Monster VI.

You can easily go higher. You might be able to hit 70 strength with some actual work.

Note that you cant have 2 poly effects per PRD

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.


Anzyr wrote:


Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent bonus. Boon from a Succubus is a +2 Profane bonus. You can grab another 1-2 STR from Pesh.

Pesh won't stack with the mutagen, but the blood resevoir is a great find that would stack, but only lasts for 1 round so it would work as long as blood money or wish is quickened.


ryric wrote:
No amount of playtesting can stop dedicated jerks.

Yes, that's true -- but at the same time, you don't want to set up things so that "perfect" is the enemy of "good." If the attitude is "people will always break rules so there's no point in having them," then save the $40 and don't buy a rulebook. On the other hand, if you're shelling out for a glossy, profesessionally-produced product, in my mind there shouldn't be TOO many obviously "buggy" things to the point where, used legitimately as written, they still break the game.


TimD wrote:

+1 to what Ryric said.

I'd probably include a secret cumulative and permanent -1 to saves & SR vs. Thassilonian & Aboleth spells for each casting or similar to reinforce the "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is" rule of most realities.

-TimD

Kind if a jerk DM move if you don't tell the player the downside. Especially if they're using a different body to do the casting.


jjaamm wrote:
Drachasor wrote:

I know people have done some ways to hit 52 strength. Just wanted to point out that it is very, very easy to get high strength.

Hmm, Anthropomorphic (3rd level) Elephant, Strength 30.
Magic Jar in (5th level).

Form of the Dragon III (8th level spell), +10 Size Bonus to Strength; 40 strength.

Heart of the Mammoth (8th level spell), +8 enhancement bonus to strength; 48.

Blood Rage (3rd level) for another +10 (morale). So that's 58.

Pretty easy for a 17th level caster. Just buy an elephant...or use Summon Monster VI.

You can easily go higher. You might be able to hit 70 strength with some actual work.

Note that you cant have 2 poly effects per PRD

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

The only two being used are Anthropomorphic and Form of the Dragon III. The first one just makes it easier to cast spells in your new Elephant body. Dragons can already talk and cast spells, so it isn't a problem to switch over to that.


Ravingdork wrote:
Rudy2 wrote:
...and only 300 if your DM lets you buy Lesser Restoration wands made by a paladin...
Wands made by paladins aren't cheaper to buy. They can be cheaper to make, but not to buy. The crafting cost is determined by the crafter, but the market price is set, and that's based on the primary class that casts the spell (cleric in this case).

Not true according to RAW! "Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item."

This is taken directly from the section on "magic item gold piece value".
So technically the inclusion of paladin/bard/summoner/ranger and other such casters have made certain magic items WAY cheaper because of the lower spell level. At least by RAW.
I would however run it exactly the way you said. I just know that it isn't RAW.


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Blood Money should only be allowed from that one particular RotRL source. That’s how it was designed. Simple.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
TimD wrote:

+1 to what Ryric said.

I'd probably include a secret cumulative and permanent -1 to saves & SR vs. Thassilonian & Aboleth spells for each casting or similar to reinforce the "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is" rule of most realities.

-TimD

Kind if a jerk DM move if you don't tell the player the downside. Especially if they're using a different body to do the casting.

<shrug>

Different strokes for different folks. Not all gaming styles are equally conducive to each other. You may not like games where what you know out of play may be challenged by in-play discoveries. Some folks do.

Some people never kill PCs unless the player tells the GM its ok, even if their characters slaps both of Demogorgon's faces. Some people try to only run RAW. Some people seemingly can't handle games over 5th level. I'm none of those people, but I understand that they are out there and they play a fundamentally different game than I do and that, most importantly, they have fun doing it. More power to them.

Me, I see a spell that others may want to take and abuse and say "instead of banning this, what if we use hints in
existing cannon
and make this more interesting?". Voila, instant plot device.

YMMV as always.

-TimD

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