A Mystic Theurge in a game I'm running has fallen unhappy with his class because the other caster classes have dropped out of the game. We had a large party (7ish, it varied from game to game) and there was a Sorcerer and Oracle as the primary casters, and this Player was a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge.
A few levels ago, the casters had to drop out for various reasons, and they've been able to skate by because the Theurge had Leadership with a Cleric/Paladin which allowed him to focus more on the Arcane side, but it's just not working out. He just doesn't have the magical strength needed to help.
Anyway, I've been thinking about letting him have a rebuild, but he's really attached to the character as is. He'd rather retire the character, and play something else, but the character himself can't, for Role Play reasons, really leave the campaign without dieing.
I've been considering, instead, a new Feat that could help him. He just made 11th level and hasn't chosen his Feat yet, so I was thinking now would be the optimal time to give it.
Magical Synthesis
Your magical energies have fused to allow for greater power.
Prerequisite: Able to cast second-level divine spells and second-level arcane spells, Mystic Theurge level 5th.
Benefit: Your arcane and divine class levels are treated as two levels higher for purposes of caster level, spell slots and access to spells.
Choose one arcane class and one divine class when you select this feat. Your levels in these two classes are treated as two higher for the purpose of over-all caster level and access to spell and spell slots. For example, a cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 5 would normally have a caster level of 8th with access to 4th level spells, but this feat would treat them as caster level 10th with access to 5th level spells and spell slots.
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I wouldn't normally give something like this out, but our group lost 3 of the players (and picked up a new player that had never played P&P RPG's before) 2 of which were the casters. This left the Mystic Theurge player as the only one with spells, which has really hurt the party.
Would this feat be a good workaround for the player? The party will still be down a little on the action economy, but the biggest hurt they've had is simply not having a high enough spell to fix a problem at APL 10th.
It should help. It's "broken", but if the DM, the player, and other players have no problem with it, go for it.
I have a player planning to go MT(a really weird Spellslinger/cleric build) and actually I recommend you point out this feat: Theurgy. This will let him cast at higher levels for DCs for dive effects & extra damage typing for arcane ones, so he should be remaining relevant in fights.
If he's looking for general utility, just have him pick up a lot of scrolls. He, unlike most, doesn't need UMD to cast; he just has to make a caster level check to cast scrolls from either the Divine or Arcane spell list. A roll where you only fail on a 3 or lower isn't bad imo.
Also what did you flavor the other character's departure as? Cause if they're still with the party, just have them scribing scrolls all day long for the MT to use. If they're dead, have him hock their gear for money to pay for said scrolls.
I've seen the Theurgy feat, and I thought about it, but he really doesn't do damage spells (or hasn't up to this point) as that was always the other casters' forte. The 10th level Sorcerer simply had better damage dice and caster levels, so he focused on that, while the Cleric focused more on the Divine Warrior aspect. With the Mystic Theurge taking up a lot of the buffing spells, it worked great. Now he's the only caster left (except for his Cohort) and damage spells aren't a very good choice. The problem comes from having to be a, basically, 8th level caster (and the only caster in the party) going up against CR 11th - 14th creatures, some will spells, spell-like abilities, or very high saves and resistances.
Put an 8th level wizard against a 13th level caster, which is a scenario that may come up. The APL of the party is 10th, and a 13th level caster would be an APL + 3 challenge. He's only an 8th level caster with 4th level spells, while the enemy caster would be using 7th level spells. He's simply out matched in basically every way.
I'm trying to figure out some way to help him, without giving out too much power. The feat that I proposed would help him tremendously, keeping his caster level relevant and giving him access to higher level spells that would really help.
One of the two casters died, while the other one was called away back to his homeland to help out with a problem the party couldn't be involved in (clan secret).
Besides, if your caster is only relevant by relying on the powers and skills of others, your caster isn't very good. The Theurge was a great addition to the party, because he could help the other casters focus on a more offensive role, while he picked up the defensive buffs. His character is more of a commander, dispensing advice, tactics and directing from the rear, so buffing the party and helping make them all better really fit his role. Now he's got to step up more and being 3 caster levels behind the parties level isn't making the cut.
1)Talk to the players see what they want to do.
2)Magic items that may help wands, Pearls of power, Stats item, Srolls, Rods
3)NPC help
The real queastion I have what do you have left PC wise?
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I allow my players to pick some feats from 3.5 books, and there's one that's been really useful for the mystic theurge in our group. Practiced Spellcaster gives the player a +4 Caster Level in one spellcasting class (not to exceed Character Level.) That's basically like the feat you're suggesting except for it being only one class and it doesn't change their learning rate. A Fighter 6/Wizard 1 would still only have level 1 spells, but he'd cast them at CL5. The feat was intended to boost casters who split up their levels.
My player took Practiced Spellcaster for both Cleric and Wizard so his caster level in both classes is up to 10 in both at Character Level 10. He still only has access to Level 4 spells, but the Caster Level boost helped his damage and durations.
Something else you might suggest is Spell Research. He might have more fun if he's slinging original spells. Since he sounds like a tactician, maybe you help him come up with spells that buff his allies while debuffing his foes or some new battlefield control spells.
That feat is really too much though. I know you want to help him, but I recommend doing so within the system. Scrolls are the easiest way around that problem. All he has to do to match them on spells is pay a little gold, roll a d20 and not roll under a 6 per spell to match them in arcane spells.
Also don't underestimate his versitility, he's a wizard and a cleric. On a given day he should be able to change his hat from buffer to caster-dps on the next as long as he's been filling up his book with spells. And on the divine side, unless his diety is super restictive, that shouldn't be an issue either for preparing divine spells either.
So I don't think think he's "out matched in every way", or that "relying on the powers and skills of others" makes you a bad caster. A Mystic Theurge can match any full caster through sheer spell versitility at the cost of pure power. When that 13th level casters out of spells, the MT can still be trucking if you've done your job right. Granted, they need more gear(scrolls, rings, etc) to keep up with the big boys, but don't count him out till he's proven he can't keep up. It's hard, yes, and not as easy as spamming buffs; but it can be done if you built right.
A 2 level bump for a feat is a lot. A 1 level bump is more reasonable, with a greater Magical synthesis feat available later with a mystic theurge 10th prerequisite to give him another bump.
Alternatively, you can give him a magic item (call it something like ring of the theurge) which does something similar. Maybe a lesser version adds +1, the regular version adds +2, and a greater version adds +3. I have no idea how to price it, but as long as he doesn't try to sell it, don't worry too much about it.
You could let him try my mystic theurge archetype found HERE
I really dig the mystic theurge one. It doesn't really fit for a Wizard/Cleric, though, so it's not perfect for this guy. It's cool, though, and I'd recommend it to somene who wanted to play an MT in my game.
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Let them join a Guild of some kind (Inner Sea Magic) so they can gain prestige with the guild and get Eclectic (5pp) and Esoteric Training (35pp) for up to 3 extra levels of spellcasting for one class (spells known, spells per day, caster level, the works) but can't exceed your character level. It's perfect for Mystic Theurges as it brings your caster level for one class up to normal.
Personally, I would just fix Theurge. It's a really bad PRC. I'd probably make it more along the lines of Ultimate magus for the requirements: 2nd level casting in one flavor, 1st in the other. In fact, I may even just use the UM as is and change it to divine/arcane...
Mystic Theurge is a perennial issue on the board and in general this always seems to be the best, simplest suggestion for making the class playable at lower levels.
I agree with Vestrial.
Doing it like that you can even fix it retroactively by allowing him to rebuild a new character with the same amount of total levels, but with more levels in Mystic Theurge and less in one of the base caster classes.
I'm aware of the Magus class, but what is the Ultimate Magus thing?
I'm aware of the Magus class, but what is the Ultimate Magus thing?
3.5 Prestige Class, like a MT but instead of Arcane/Divine you level as Arcane/Arcane (Wizard/Sorcerer usually). I've heard a few people swear by them but never seen one played.
I'm aware of the Magus class, but what is the Ultimate Magus thing?
It was in 3.5 WoTC Book Complete Mage Published in 2006. It 10 level class weak BaB, Weak Fort and Reflex, Strong Will, 1d4 HD, 2+Int, That gave +7 caster levels to one Arcane Class and +10 to the other. 10 or 11 class abiltys. You only need 1 bard or Sorcerer, and Wizard 3, to get in. 4 ranks Knoweldge Arcane & 8 ranks Spellcraft and 1 Meta magic feat.
Look at the Magical Knack Trait and the feat Additional Traits. Your two traits would be Magical Knack (his arcane class) and Magical Knack (his divine class). It's legal, even if some of your early respondents might find it broken, and you don't have to invent a game mechanic.
cheers
The irony (to me) is that he's thinking of giving up after he's already suffered through the worst levels for a mystic theurge!
Personally, I think that creatively using 5th level spells is about as good as having 7th level spells, as opposed to being stuck with 2nd level spells instead of 4th level spells...
Outside of suggestions like Practiced Spellcaster/Magical Knack, I got nothin'.
I would let him re-make as a witch. The witch has some of the best spells from the cleric and wizard list. It's what you play if you want a MT from level 1.
This is the correct answer.
It's not that he's giving up. The problem comes from the fact he is the ONLY caster in the party (except for his cohort who is a 5th level Cleric/3rd level Paladin) and his caster level is 3 levels behind his level, and he's 2 spell levels behind where he needs to be.
Using things like Magical Knack only increases his Caster Level, not his access to spell levels. Also, taking Additional Traits for two Magical Knacks doesn't work because you are limited to only 1 Magic Trait.
I think a rebuild may just be his best bet since this feat seems to be too powerful.
It's not that he's giving up. The problem comes from the fact he is the ONLY caster in the party (except for his cohort who is a 5th level Cleric/3rd level Paladin) and his caster level is 3 levels behind his level, and he's 2 spell levels behind where he needs to be.
Is there some specific recent situation where he hasn't had the right spell for the job?
Give him a staff with some of the spells you think he'll need.
The party is hunting down an Enchantress to recover an item she's stolen for some ritual she's performing to attempt to absorb the powers of magical items to fuel her own magical energies. They've broken into her lair, and are encountering ensorcelled creatures that serve her, some of which have spells or SPA. Other things like traps involving Wall of Force or trying to remove Domination effects from the melee opponents have come into play.
They had an Oracle when they entered the dungeon (the Sorcerer in the party left before), and he was focusing on dealing with problems the Theurge couldn't, and the Theurge was using the Oracle and his Cohort to handle the Divine side, while he focused more on his Arcane abilities.
But then the Oracle died, and the player left the group, and now he's the only caster in the party. He recently made 11th level and still has a feat to choose (we're playing this Sunday) and I thought this might help him. They'll still have problems with the fact he can only cast 1 spell a round, but I thought that he'd be able to solve more magical problems than he could before since he'd have higher level spells.
I agree with esoteric training from the inner sea guide... Just have him spend the gold requirements and tie him to guild service when needed.. this fixes all your probs..
I am actually surprised that your mystic theurge player feels less useful with the primary casters gone. Previously he was a less effective backup caster -- now he is the most powerful caster in the group. I think all you need to do is move the game in a more "low magic" direction (making most foes more physically powerful and less magically gifted) and your mystic theurge will shine as the great magic man.
That Magister class is awesome! I just sent a Text to the player informing him about rebuilding as one if he wants to.
That Magister class is awesome! I just sent a Text to the player informing him about rebuilding as one if he wants to.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but won't the Magister class also be two spell levels behind a primary caster of the same level? Wasn't that the problem with the Mystic Theurge in the first place?
The Theurge is 11th level now and has access to 4th level spells. If he were to rebuild as a Magister, he'd be 11th level with access to 5th level spells out of his Primary List and 4th level spells out of his Secondary List. At least, that is my understanding.
A pure caster would have access to 6th level spells.
A Theurge with the proposed feat would have access to 5th level spells in both classes.
I think the Magister is probably a happy medium between the two. A witch is also a possibility, though I'm not sure if he'd like that one too much.
Looking over the magister, it seems like a good choice to me. It's what I would recommend to a player of mine seeking to play as a theurge. I'd probably allow them a small selection of oracle mysteries to take, also.
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You know, the best Divine/Arcane class IMO is the Razmiran Priest Sorcerer Archetype. If you are going to let him rebuild you should direct him towards this. You get Sorcerer spell progression and at 9th lvl you can cast Divine spells from spell completion and trigger items without using the items up, it just costs you a spell slot one level higher then normal.
He just needs a healthy supply of scrolls and a bag of holding. Also, the False Focus feat is also a nice little bonus, allowing you to use spells with 100gp in material components or less for free (assuming you have an expensive focus).
As for Bloodlines, I would say Martyred is the best for this type of build.
Why not just allow him to use his character level as his caster level? He has only taken casters so far. Not like its going to make him OP, his spell progression is still down.