I agree Dusk. I think in the vast majority of cases, TWF/natural attacks isn't strong enough to warrant concern. MANY builds that focus exclusively on one aspect of their build can enter the realm of too powerful for a given group. TWF/Natural attacks churns out a ton of low damage attacks. I haven't seen any numbers crunched, but I would assume it would be comparable to an optimized 2 hander build.
I once did some number crunching on that, actually. It was an alchemist with feral mutagen compared to a fighter with a greatsword. I didn't use the two-handed fighter archetype, since I didn't want to deal with all the special cases they get for damage. The alchemist just used feral mutagen's natural weapons, and didn't mix unarmed strikes in at all, even though she had that feat.
The alchemist was better than the fighter at every level I compared them at, IIRC. When I added sneak attack to the mix, since she was a vivisectionist, it became a joke. The alchemist was just so much better that it wasn't even funny.
The build that Duskblade has in mind is pretty close to the one I did. It's a vivisectionist, so it has sneak attack. It has feral mutagen too. But it also has US and TWF as well as double rend.
I, and quite a few others, considered my build to be overpowered, and now we get one that has a lot more attacks too. More attacks is more payoff for the AoMF and more sneak attack opportunities.
So I respectfully disagree.
@ Cheapy
In regards to power, I have to say that I'm not so sure. Some of the more 'crazy' builds I've seen (excluding synthesist summoner of course) can often include things like 'archer builds' for fighters, which typically abuse the heck out of things like composite longbow, rapid shot, weapon specialization, and weapon training.
If you have a link to your vivisectionist build, I'd greatly appreciate it, because honestly, if you were ONLY using your 3 natural attacks from feral mutagen...I have no idea how you were out-damaging a fighter with a two-handed weapon (especially if that weapon happened to be a Nodachi with keen or improved critical, but again, I'm not sure if you factored in crit chance or not).
The fact that a fighter can gain 4 attacks with enormous power attack benefits from 2 handed weapons, plus weapon training and weapon specialization benefits...again...not seeing how 3 natural attacks (even with sneak attack) still compare.
I'm honestly a bit surprised you're not aware of my alchemist. AMY ALCHY was the one that started the whole "vivisectionist + beastmorph" thing your post was saying wasn't as good as it could be.
I still think everything in there works, although there's been a wee bit of doubt with regards to dragon style and how it works with power attack. The Potion of GMF may be off too, requiring three potions instead of one.
Rathyr: I totally agree with that sentiment. What's overpowered really depends on the party. I've seen groups who are fine with multiple master summoners and Synth X / Paladin 2s in them, and they claim it isn't overpowered. It's just that there's a certain "baseline" party that you can compare things to. And it's generally much weaker than things you'll find on these forums.
Sean says it's Jason's fault.
Always. >8D
Ah...I sees what u be doing.
There only be a couple issues of course:
1) Getting a hold of a potion of Greater Magic Fang +5 might be sorta difficult (i remember reading somewhere that all potions must be purchased ath the 'minimum caster level').
2) From what I can tell, you're not factoring crit chance into your calculations, but you are factoring in sneak attack (not really much of a huge issue I suppose, but it can drastically alter the amount of damage that can be produced).
Also, thanks so much for the Vanguard Cheapy (Very much appreciate it). I'm currently working on a big revision of a lot of pathfinder classes, and I was hoping to use the Vanguard class as a base for when I remade the Magus class. If you're interested, I'd be happy to send you copies of my work via e-mail so you can look them over for yourself. I'd love to see what you think.
Eh, the potion bit was silly. Getting a 20 CL potion probably isn't something you can doeasily.
I was using the basic DPR formula for the damage though, which does include crits.
And sure, I enjoy reading over homebrew stuff. Although I'm a bit harsh.
*shrug* Wasn't thinking about adding Sneak Attack in there. As I said, I hadn't seen any numbers.
I've stated many times power level is a very relative thing. I like to be a strong addition to the party, not its pack mule nor its guardian angel of destruction. If you are rolling with Druids riding TRex's and God Wizards, bring the A game =p. If not, round your character out more, or find ways to bring the rest of the party up.
You know, being a responsible optimizer =).
"Responsible optimiser" - I like that a lot :)