| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So if I made a character who has levels both in kensai magus and duelist, how would those 2 class features work?
Duelist:
Canny Defense (Ex)
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
Kensai:
Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.
Lets say my character has int score 16 and he is lvl 2 kensai and lvl 2 duelist. Would I:
1.gain bonus independently, as in +2AC from kensai and +2AC from duelist, making it +4 AC
2.features stack making effective level of canny defense 4, giving max AC bonus of 4 but seeing my modifier is only +3, making it +3 AC
3. they don't stack and only better one applies, making it +2 AC
Strictly RAW works as 3
1) bonus from class features with the same name don't stacks
2) levels in classes that grants the same class features don't stack among themself unless one of the class don't specify otherwise
1) bonus from class features with the same name don't stacks
Not sure I agree. The rule specifically says 'from the same source', not 'from sources with the same name'. These are class abilities from two different classes, which makes them different sources, and they both provide untyped bonuses. I see no reason they wouldn't stack.
I don't they wouldn't stack because they have the same name and on top of that they reference each other without mentioning that they stack. If one was canny defense and the other was uncanny defense then I would say yes.
I kind of agree with what Zhayne is saying, but I can also see the other side. This is one of those gray area things when rules are bit harder to interpret, which i always hate. Thanks for your input ^^
If you want to get nitpicky about it then if your read the entry for Kensai
And the Duelist
So there are two issues here.
1. Duelist "Canny Defence" doesn’t require a specific kind of weapon except that it be a melee weapon, it doesn’t refer to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing. The Duelist ability Precise Strike requires specific type of melee weapon.
2. By RAW the Kensai gets no bonus since hes has no Duelist Level? And it doesn’t say it treats his Magus level as his effective Duelist level like other class features (like the vikings rage ability that treats the fighters level -3 as his barbarian level, or the ranger level -3 as there effective druid level for there animal companion) for there respective abilitys, ect.
When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist's precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.
This was a bit poorly worded and you really need to use RAI for this one since it looks like it didn't get that much attention.
Also as a note
For many of the class features of the duelist, a requirement is to be using a light or one-handed piercing weapon. This must also be a melee weapon; a duelist cannot use such class abilities with a ranged-only weapon or thrown-only weapon.
So taking that into account for the Canny Defence ability, (by RAW) it still fails to give the Kensai any bonus since he has no Duelist level(s).
I know, but its basically making the Kensai gain an ability that’s useless unless you take another class, Pathfinder has (to my knowledge) never done that to any class. My point was that the ability Canny Defence was just very poorly worded and confusing, and it really should be rewritten.
I get what you are saying Dark78660 by RAW since kensai ability states that it is identical to duelist skill, yet does not mention that he gains the bonus from his kensai levels, it would as such mean that no matter how many levels as kensai he takes he would never gain any bonuses from his class, right? That is clearly against RAI though.
So lets say it was worded that he gains bonus to his AC from his kensai levels. Now would you say that from my earlier options that option 1, 2 or 3 was right?
Well since the way its worded (assuming its using his Kensai levels for it) It would allow 1 point of Intelligence per Kensai Level (to a max of your Int modifier).
Since the Canny Defence(Kensai) dose not say it stacks with Canny Defence(Duelist) for your total effective Kensai/Duelist level they are separate and you calculate each one by it self (both abilitys granting up to a max of your Int to AC)
Now normally the bonuses would NOT stack with you have like bonuses, and you would just take the higher of the two, but since Dodge bonuses always stack you would gain the benefit of both as separate abilitys that grant a bonus to AC that just so happen to be able to stack because of there bonus type, not because the abilitys specificity allows like typed bonuses to stack.
So short answer, option 1.
BBT has the right of it - the fact that they happen to be from the same ability granted by two separate classes is irrelevant, because dodge bonuses explicitly call out that they always stack.
Example
Kensai 5/Duelist 2
Int 18 / +4
If it was a typed bonus (say "Deflection" or something that doesn’t stack form multiple sources)
You would get +4 from Kensai and +2 from Duelist and take the highest of the two, in this case +4.
But since they are dodge bonuses (just like untyped bonuses) they stack and you would get a +6.
Alright, thanks for all the answers, they have clarified this situation quite a lot for me :)
Ps. I do hope that kensai will get rewritten for next print
By RAW the Kensai gets no bonus since hes has no Duelist Level
wow, nice catch Dark- that is hilarious. it makes for an interesting predicament (and an inadvertent fix/exploit)... the rules do state that class features with the same name do not stack levels unless the ability specifically says the do, you gain the abilities separately and track them separately (this is often pointed out regarding classes that grant channel energy, but is also the default rule); often this would make bonuses redundant because they don't stack, but (as blackbloodtroll pointed out) dodge bonuses explicitly do stack, so....
RAW: you gain 0 AC bonus for your 2 kensai levels (because you have no Duelist levels to trigger the canny defense ability it gives you); when you take duelist 1 you gain +2 AC because you now get a +1 dodge bonus from both of your canny defense abilities- when you take duelist 2 it increases to +4, for the same reason; if you take duelist 3 it will increase to +6 (the max at your current Int) because your kensai levels have no bearing on your kensai ability as written.
this is clearly not RAI, so i'd encourage the use of common sense... but, strictly RAW, there it is. For a common sense approach, base the kensai power off of kensai levels instead of off duelist levels- that would result in #1 from the OP.
edit- yikes, that's why you never 'do something else real quick' while writing a post... epic ninja'd =P
BBT has the right of it - the fact that they happen to be from the same ability granted by two separate classes is irrelevant, because dodge bonuses explicitly call out that they always stack.
I agree, because its dodge bonus it stacks, but the issue is also, to what extent will they stack? Since the ability itself has a limit, with this specific combination of classes, what exactly is that limit? Because of the wording its unclear and thus why I have worded it out so people can understand how the abilitys work (assuming it dose use Kensai levels instead of Duelist levels) and no extra wording is being added to the ability.
By RAW the Kensai gets no bonus since hes has no Duelist Levelwow, nice catch Dark- that is hilarious.
I'm happy some one else found it as funny as I did XD
Edit: This is my 100th post on the forums! :D
Since the ability itself has a limit, with this specific combination of classes, what exactly is that limit?
the abilities are tracked separately, so you can reach that cap in each class separately- for a total max of +(Int mod x2) to your AC.
Since the ability itself has a limit, with this specific combination of classes, what exactly is that limit?the abilities are tracked separately, so you can reach that cap in each class separately- for a total max of +(Int mod x2) to your AC.
Haha I already stated that but in my wall of text I guess that could be missed, thanks for the clarification :)
oh, sorry- it was in one of the half dozen posts that went up in 27 minutes between when i started my first post and when i actually posted it, lol.
This is the same thing of the old 3.5 condrum "do i get to stack wis twice if i have 2 times the ability to do so" like with a saint monk or a saint with a monks belt ecc. Even in the cheestastic age of 3.5 the sage's faq ruled against it, and since there has not been any explicit rule changes that faq still apply.
Pose yourself this question. Does a sohei 6/weapon master 3 with duelling gloves gets two times +3 for a total of +6(it's unnamed bunus)? I don't think so.
The Sohei gains Weapon training as the Fighter class ability
Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
So that's one thing, following that and the fact that Weapon Master replaces Armor training for an ability called "Weapon Training", but dose not refer to the original "Weapon Training" ability it makes me wonder.
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/12/13
Too me it seems more along the lines of the Weapon Masters Weapon Training not actually being the Weapon Training class feature referenced by the Gloves of Dueling I would say the Gloves of Dueling apply to the Sohei but not the Weapon Master, but the Weapon Master bonus would stack with the Sohei's bonus (since its an untyped bonus).
Basically you only get Gloves of Dueling only once, but full bonus from both Sohie and Weapon Master.
Though this is all another corner case and could be you only take the higher of the two bonuses then apply Gloves of Dueling, but that’s because the ability (from Sohie that states it acts as the Fighter ability of the same) specificity states it doesn’t stack.(I quoted it at the top)
This is all just my opinion on the matter however and I have no answer for RAW at this time.