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Apparently the alchemist tentacle discovery can't be used with other natural attacks. Had a long discussion about it a few weeks ago and was apparently wrong about it the entire time. Why they chose to make it work different than every other natural attack in the game beats me, but apparently that's how it works.
The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though he can use it to make a tentacle attack (1d4 damage for a Medium alchemist, 1d3 damage for a Small one) with the grab ability.
The conventional wisdom is that the no "extra attacks" clause includes natural weapon full attacks.
cant you also get a gore from the... devil totem? (not sure on whether or not totem warrior allows multiple totem types or even does anything at all)
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Dragon Form II gives you 6, four are primary and two are 1.5x strength damage. Monstrous Form II gives you access to the Calikang, which has 6 slams, all primary attacks.
Dip 2 ranger for natural weapon style and get aspect of the beast for claws. Go lesser fiend totem instead of beast for gore attack. Drop tentacle discovery and grab a couple vestigial arms and feral mutagen. I think it his should bump you up to bite, claw x4, wing x2, gore, tail for a total of 9. If vestigial arms are like tentacle and won't allow you to attack despite having 4 sets of claws with your mutagen, then drop the arms and ranger levels. Take feral mutagen for easy bite/claw x2. Toss in that tentacle cloak, and I think you could have upwards of 11 attacks per round.
Tentacle cloak? Sounds awesome
I don't think you can get two totems at once, so no lesser fiend.
Anyway: Witch , prehensile hair hex at 2nd lvl. Low BAB, but the hair can work like hands, but the have time limits on use. White haired witch archetype gets it a better version 1st lvl, which does not have a times per day clause, more damage, and can grapple after a successful attack. Might go for it early, personally. Trades off all the hexes, but it is useful for a dip. Darn, wish I had noticed this earlier. Great move.
Also, if you go alchemist, go vivisectionist, since this whole arrangement is prime for sneak attack damage. With only 1d6 of sneak attack, you can easily end up with 8d6 from the sneak attacks alone if you include the witch. And lets say d4's for most of the natural attacks (too many to actually check). So that would end up being....up to 72 max, or about 48 average damage, per full attack round. 20 average on just a regular charge though. Luckily , barbarian has a great speed, so during a surprise round, charge your heart out. Or the other guy's heart out.
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I've attempted this sort of build numerous times, and I have to admit, I've always found the feat investment to be far to harsh for what you are getting.
Again, this is why I normally encourage anyone attempting a 'tooth and nail' build to REALLY consider using unarmed strikes instead.
Two-weapon fighting combined with a couple of natural attacks can net you a huge number of attacks with a greater degree of both accuracy and damage.
You should take a look at my "Making Mr. Hyde" and "Feral Barbarian" threads. In both cases, I am easily gaining gaining 10 attacks on a full round action.
...i feels as if I am being followed ;)
Tiefling with claw alternate racial and Mother's Teeth trait taking white haired witch ends up with 4 natural attacks at level one.
Tiefling with claw alternate racial and Mother's Teeth trait taking white haired witch ends up with 4 natural attacks at level one.
A tengu is better for this, they can use an alternate racial trait for claw attacks and gets a bite attack free, and they're all primary attacks.
True. But tieflings have more going for them, synergize with magus/witch/alchemist better and have bigger claw attacks and a prehensile tail option.
Also a tengu with white hair looks stupid.
You mean, how do I make others in the group feel useless?
You mean, how do I make others in the group feel useless?
I just checked up on the wizard and cleric, and I think they're going to be OK.
Anyone got a quote on the specifics of the tentacle cloak or a link for it?
Adding more tentacles to my PC is of interest to me...
...i feels as if I am being followed ;)I wouldn't flatter yourself that way. Just reading through and noticed something silly.
now I KNOW I'm being followed :P
Tentacle Cloak - Subtle, indefinable shapes ripple and flow when this deep blue cloak moves, seemingly devouring any light falling upon it. Once per day at the wearer’s command, two large gray tentacles emerge from the cloak near the shoulders. Each tentacle can make a natural attack that deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage, assuming the wear is Medium (the damage of the tentacles scales by size of the wearer as a tentacle natural attack; Bestiary 302). The tentacles have 10-foot reach and the grab monster special ability (Bestiary 301). In addition, the wearer gains a +4 competence bonus on grapple maneuver checks with the tentacles. The tentacles last for 1 minute.
The only real issue (aside from the whole 'once a day and only for one minute' thing) is that it doesn't exactly specify if these natural attacks are primary or secondary (and yes, while a tentacle attack is normally a 'secondary natural weapon', heaven forbid that I assume too much into one that actually means) *eyes the 'tentacle' discovery for the alchemist* darn it!
You know you could just dip Sohei Monk for Mounted Skirmisher, right? Or go Ranger 10 for it.
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The Monstrous Extremities spell from Faiths of Corruption lets you replace arms and legs (one per casting) with (secondary) natural attacks at a one hour per level duration, if that helps at all? It's cleric or sorcerer/wizard 3 and witch 4, so it's wand-able too. Could be handy for those pesky human-like feet which hardly ever seem to get replaced with natural attacks... ;)
Alchemist Discoveries
2nd Vestigial Arm
4th Vestigial Arm
6th Feral Mutagen
Vestigial arms do not grant extra attacks.
The RAW sez so and James Jacobs sez so. True, it is still debated but only by folks that don’t know any better.
And SKR sez the same:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4183?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question #48
"What 0gre said, and note that the tentacle discovery specifically calls out that it doesn't give you any extra attacks. So, like the wings, you can use it in place of one of your other attacks (the ability description is calling out that you can attack with it because it also has the grab ability, which you wouldn't otherwise know)."
It is not reasonable to ask the devs to make every power, feat etc take up a whole page of legalese, nor to write “Not with claws, not with a fox, not in a box, not….) every time. The power sez “ The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round,” it is as clear as can be. The devs have said NO, no, NO! Now, I guess if you want to say “well, they didn’t specifically call out “no extra attacks with a salad fork”” then no one can help you.
Absolutely, you are totally correct. Which is why they wrote “The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round,” and why they needed to write that.
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Feral Mutagen
Benefit: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.
Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged.The rule is specific always over rules general.
In your statement its a general statement. Due to feral mutagen I can CHOOSE to put claws on my Vestigial Arms since my main hands already have claws. Now I have 4 primary claws. I didn't gain any more attacks per round. Its still my primary attacks made at full BAB.
Me: James, clarify one thing for me: Alchemist:
Feral Mutagen- gains two claws- but at the cost of using a weapon in those appendages?
Tentacles- can use them INSTEAD OF a weapon attack, not in addition to?
Vestigial Limb- same question?
In other words, as I read it, none of these things give you extra attacks, (well Feral does give a extra Bite attack) just more choices of what attacks to make, things to do?
Jame Jacobs: “Yes. They're supposed to be a choice. Use the claws/tentacles or use a weapon. All monsters with claws and tentacles have to make that choice.”
Pretty clear to me. On you regular hand you get the choice of weapons or claws. Not both. Do you get extra attacks from claws if you have no vestigial arms? No (TWF aside, of course). Thus on vestigial arm, since you can’t get any extra attacks if they wield weapons, why do you get extra attacks if they have claws? What part of “The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round,” is unclear?
You know you could just dip Sohei Monk for Mounted Skirmisher, right? Or go Ranger 10 for it.I did not know that. Ranger 10 not so good (because the only way I'd want to do ranger would be with Natural Weapon style, and Mounted Skirmisher at 10 is only for Mounted Style rangers). The sohei thing is pretty nasty, taking a feat with 14 skill ranks and two feats as pre-reqs at 1st level. Methinks someone should really have spent the word count on sohei to break up the special bonus feat selection by 1/6/10.
Meh, Synthesist Summoner gets Pounce at level 1 without the alignment or being mounted requirements, and gives you access to summoner spell list items and UMD as a class skill.
Sohei having something cool is pretty small potatoes.
Then again, given paizo's track record with monks and errata vs. every other class and errata... I wouldn't be surprised to see it nerfed at some point. (-_-)
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Me: James, clarify one thing for me: Alchemist:
Feral Mutagen- gains two claws- but at the cost of using a weapon in those appendages?
Tentacles- can use them INSTEAD OF a weapon attack, not in addition to?
Vestigial Limb- same question?
In other words, as I read it, none of these things give you extra attacks, (well Feral does give a extra Bite attack) just more choices of what attacks to make, things to do?
Jame Jacobs: “Yes. They're supposed to be a choice. Use the claws/tentacles or use a weapon. All monsters with claws and tentacles have to make that choice.”Pretty clear to me. On you regular hand you get the choice of weapons or claws. Not both. Do you get extra attacks from claws if you have no vestigial arms? No (TWF aside, of course). Thus on vestigial arm, since you can’t get any extra attacks if they wield weapons, why do you get extra attacks if they have claws? What part of “The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round,” is unclear?
Ahem, lets try to put the record straight again (love these debates):
Vestigial Arm - does it grant extra attacks...nope...says so in the description.
Feral Mutagen - does it grant 2 claw attacks...yep...says so in the description.
Are Vestigial Arms legal targets for Feral Mutagen...yep...your vestigial arms are both perfectly legal targets.
Can you make attacks with your claws...yep...because your vestigial arms are now considered CLAWS...not vestigial arms.
As I've stated before, natural attacks are not considered extra attacks anyway, and I find it immensely funny how a lot of people want to say that the 'tentacle' discovery doesn't grant you a natural attack as well.
After all, the 'tentacle' discovery says that it doesn't grant you any additional attacks...BUT...it clearly allows you to make a 'tentacle attack'.
By definition (per RAW) a 'tentacle attack' is a secondary natural attack.
Nothing in the description of the 'tentacle' discovery states otherwise.
As mentioned in previous threads, the entire clause of the whole 'grants no extra attacks' is ONLY there to clarify that having these extra limbs does NOT grant you any increased actions to your BAB.
For example, if you can normally make 2 attacks from your BAB, having a 'tentacle' or 'vestigial arm' does not allow you to add a third attack via your BAB (basically, it doesn't grant you any 'extra' iterative strikes). However, in the case of the tentacle discovery, you CAN use it to make a secondary natural attack (again, per RAW), since natural attacks are NOT limited or controlled by your BAB (in other words, it doesn't use iterative attacks).
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I want to know why you think feral mutagen adds claws to a vestigal arm.
Feral mutagen: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist's full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.
Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
No where in either entry does it indicate they work with each other, or interact in any way. Nor do either allow exceptions to the other.
Vestigial arm gives you options, but does not ever increase hand or ring slots, increase attacks or actions per round... in short, it's a third arm that does nothing but hold things for you really. sure you can attack with it, but then one of your other two arms can't attack.
Of course this also means you can have one arm holding a ranged weapon and one a melee, and switch between either without having to draw or drop a weapon...
To think somehow feral mutagen lets you put claws on your vestigal arms and bypass the restrictions of the vestigal arm is absurd.
...yea...tis official...I am being followed :P
Alright, lets try to explain a few things: 1) You do realize that it is perfectly acceptable to make 'unarmed strikes' with vestigial arms, correct? I mean, let us say that you could make 3 attacks in a full-round action...in one hand, you have a dagger/in another hand, you have a light crossbow/and in your third hand (vestigial), you have an unarmed strike.
Therefore, in a full-round action, u can use each one of these weapons 1 time if you like (or give up an attack with one of them to make multiple attacks with the others...for example, giving up the crossbow shot to make 2 dagger attacks and 1 unarmed strike). This interaction is perfectly legal because you are following the normal attack routine (in other words, you are not using your vestigial hand for extra attacks, but rather you are using it as part of your normal attack routine)
Therefore, because the vestigial arm can be used this way, I have to ask: what makes you think that it cannot be a legal target for your 'claws' when you activate 'Feral Mutagen'?
Typically speaking, the 'claw attacks' are generally accepted to be located upon a characters arms and hands (I'm sure you would agree with this, as I don't imagine that you would argue that claw attacks can go anywhere on the body). There's also been the debate about whether or not you can place claws on your feet as well, but I'll leave that argument for another thread.
Anyway, if all you need is a set of arms and hands in order to qualify as legal targets for feral mutagen (and since vestigial arms give you BOTH arms and hands) why can't you select them?
Is it so absurd to think that vestigial arms CANNOT be legal targets for the Feral Mutagen? I think not ;)
Vestigial arms function in the same way as your normal arms do (granted, they don't provide you with anything 'extra', but they can still be utilized in all the same ways). Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to say that they can be targeted for the Feral Mutagen claws.
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Note that SKR has clarified the rules about tentacles etc here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p331&page=1?What-Exactly-Is-a-Tentacle-Att ack
“You don't get an extra attack with it, period. You can use it in place of any of your natural attacks, but it never allows you to get more attacks per round than you would if you didn't have the tentacle.
PRD wrote:
The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round.
If you didn't have the tentacle, and you normally could make 3 natural attacks per round (claw/claw/bite), having the tentacle doesn't change the number of natural attacks per round you can make, you're still making 3 natural attacks per round. If you wanted, you could make a tentacle attack in place of a claw or bite attack, but the text of the tentacle ability says it doesn't give you any extra attacks per round, so it doesn't give you any extra attacks per round.”
Well, I guess that makes sense, since they are "vestigial" and all. I do not expect much from my appendix either. I am thinking of some scrawny tiny t-rex arms. Well, since they can reach into all your pockets and such though, may just too thin to pick up anything heavier than alchemy equipment. Shields could be hand waved though as not really wielded them as using the arms as something to tie more armor to you.
Overall, I think I would only really allow if if they got a huge penalty to strength, and serve only as secondary attacks. Basically just getting... maybe 1 point even with a strength based feral mutagen on a strength heavy build.