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Seriously? I don't see why you would pick a witch over wizard or cleric. Could someone please explain what they are good for, if anything?
I see the witch as a fun wizard alternative. She's an INT based prepared arcane caster that trades the full wizard list for a smaller hybrid list of (primarily) wizard and cleric spells and some interesting supernatural abilities in the form of hexes (including some great debuffs). She can also choose a patron that grants a small spell list appropriate to a theme.
One of our RotRL party members has been playing one and having a lot of fun with it.
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No offense, but lots of people (me included) do not play classes for the most optimal game advantages. Many of us play a class to play a role or an idea that we like. Personally I feel witches have lots of flavor and fit themes that other spellcasters seem too vanilla to fit.
As Ossian666 mentions, witches are the best debuffers in the game, with Cackle being able to extend the durations of other debuffing hexes. So it's not the suboptimal choice that you feel that it is.
Really, our group plays sorcerers before wizards, and clerics almost never, as they don't fit the themes my players are interested. A wand of CLW is more common than clerics in our group. Paladins being the most common 'healer' class ever played by anyone in our group.
Since all our adventures are homebrews. We tend to balance encounters with the playing group, and not force suboptimal choices into overly challenging encounters/adventures that cater to standard groups that might be more closely fitting a PFS adventure or other published module. Our PCs do not feel suboptimal in any way.
Never underestimate the witch. After seeing what the witch in our party can do and then getting my summoner and eidolon seriously messed up by a hostile BOC witch, I can tell you that I would rather go up against a sorcerer or a wizard any day.
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Misfortune, Evil Eye (Saves), Evil Eye (AC), Evil Eye (Attack), Slumber. Cackling all the way.
How this little Witch took out a Will-o-Wisp last night.
One more to the pile: The Witch is the preeminent debuffer of the game. Next to a pocket healer, melee's best friend.
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Yes....nothing says I'm awesome like applying a -4 to attack, AC, and saves, and then telling them to roll twice and take the lowest. I have seen high level witches save an entire party by causing the BBEG to be unable to hit / make a save.
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Mechanically? Hexes. Hexxxxxxesssss.
Misfortune, Ill Omen, and Slumber alone are utterly superior to spells available at the same level, and they're simply usable once per day per target. Not even a sorcerer's spells per day can keep up with that. Not to mention that hexes can benefit from Ability Focus and don't provoke attacks of opportunity. You can get a DC 17 save-or-sleep at 1st level with no trouble, and it's spammable in every combat.
When combined with a save-or-suck spell (or an allied caster), Ill Omen becomes a death sentence. Slumber even more so - no save-or-suck required. The Charm hex is largely superior to charm person, is usable against a broader range of creatures, and is vastly improved by the Diplomacy skill.
At mid-level, hexes get even better.
The Agony hex can cause an enemy to be rendered completely useless for an entire encounter, and is also useable in every encounter. Usually multiple times. Needless to say, the Grand Hexes are even more absurd. You ticked off a high-level witch? Good luck repairing your True Reincarnation. No amount of dispelling is gonna fix that.
Unlike a wizard, a witch can output quite a lot of healing while still save-or-dying and save-or-sucking every enemy, every encounter. There are hexes that basically hand you one free cure moderate wounds per day per ally, or even one cure critical wounds per day per ally. And that's in addition to spells.
They also get a vast number of utility spells and hexes, and there are archetypes out there which can get you some truly crazy things, like the ability to deliver touch spells at a range all day long, the ability to control and possess undead, access to rogue talents, and the ability to manifest animate, strangling, grappling, constricting, tripping hair with a reach of 30 feet in all directions.
If you're only looking at her spell list, the witch can seem underwhelming... so... don't do that. Hexes are not lame arcane school or bloodline powers. They're nearly-limitless at-will abilities that comprise some of the best debuffs and save-or-sucks in the game.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
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Witches have hexes. They are EXTREMELY useful, alongside patron spells, they allow you to customize the abilities of your character in a way only rogues and alchemists hope to match. While they may seem like a wizard offshoot (that's what I thought) if you look at the spell list, they are not. Try playing a witch (doctor.) You'll be glad you did.
Also, though I realise it's not directly relevant for a player party, witch hexes, with their basically unlimited use on different targets, have frightening implications.
One of my favourite one-shot characters was a witch with the healing hex who'd been kidnapped and forced to use her powers on battlefields, healing every single injured soldier, every day, till she burned out mentally and magically.
All it takes to get every first-level soldier in your army who isn't actually dead back on their feet is a witch with the healing hex and enough people to make Heal checks to stabilise the dying so she can get to them in time. Why not hire a low-level coven of witches to be your army's primary healing battery? Or to curse the opposing side's front lines?
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Hexes are great, and all. Unlimited spell like effects? Very useful.
But the real reason to play a witch is because you can punch people with your hair.
Punch. People. With. Hair.
The real real reason is because they are one of the strongest classes in the game. They get a nice mix of arcane and divine spells and have unlimited spell-like effects in the form of Supernatural abilities. With the right choice of patrons, you can be extremely flexible. For example, the Shadow patron opens up a ton of possibilities since you get the evocation and conjuration spells of the Wizard spell list.
There's also that damn SAD archetype: Scarred Witch Doctor. With this one, you lose just about nothing except 1 hex (meaning you don't get any hexes until 2nd level) but in return gets to not have to worry about AoEs and her familiar as well as being able to pump everything into Constitution.
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Also add that nearly all hexes one would use in combat are "supernatural" and thus not subject to interruption or spell resistance. Most won't be affected even by silence or restraint of the body. Given there's little signs that a witch is doing anything when (s)he hexes, except maybe cackling, she doesn't draw a lot of attention. If you want a "blaster caster" or a "heal-bot," of course you're going to play something else, but that's not why the witch is such a great class.
Do not forget if you have prep time before a encounter you can stack up mult rounds of fortune on the whole party. I think most people over look how good fortune really is .
It's an int-casting poor BAB arcanist with one less spell per level per day (no specialist slot) and a much inferior spell list. And no bonus feats.
Slumber hex is basically the reason to play a witch. Later on, Ice Tomb. Beyond that, optimization-wise, there is no point to playing them over a wizard, and many of the wizard's school powers are quite potent, too. Take the Air "school" for instance. By level 10, they can fly all day long. Blows Flight hex out of the water.
I suppose keeping Fortune on the entire party the entire adventuring day via cackle is another point for the witch, but most people seem to think that's "cheesy."
A witch is a SoD wizard's best friend. The class is my favorite fifth character, when all the other party bases are covered. The debuffing is ridiculously good.
Evil Eye
Misfortune
Slumber
Fortune
SO. MANY. DEBUFFS.
The fun and joy of laughing at other's misfortune (oh wait, that's just mine... Nah, every witch with Cackle = this)
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While witches may not have the full awesome cosmic powers of a pure wizard, they are, imho, much more flavorful and have more options during the game. I love playing my witch. I get to be more versatile, more engaged in every aspect of game play (including combat) and can bring the hurt if I really, really want to (although not nearly as often as a wizard).
Then again, I enjoy playing characters with a whole lot of options. That's why I love playing skill-monkeys too.
I deliberately did not choose the slumber hex because it is so overpowered. Witches don't need slumber to be solid team players.
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With the hexes, the witch manages to be a full spellcasting class where the spellcasting is their SECONDARY power.
Frankly, with witches in the game, a better question is:
Seriously? I don't see why you would pick a wizard or a cleric over a witch. Could someone please explain what they are good for, if anything?
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The best question is why play a wizard or cleric if you can play a druid or witch...
Hexes are great, and all. Unlimited spell like effects? Very useful.
But the real reason to play a witch is because you can punch people with your hair.
Punch. People. With. Hair.
Don't forget you can also...
Make people into delicious pastries that provide Heroes Feast
Get a Ghost as a buddy.
Forcibly Reincarnate someone (hopefully into a kobold for laughs)
Cause Natural Disasters
Literally make the Ruby Apple from Sleeping Beauty
Waxen Image - Voodoo Man!
Speak with people in dreams
See the future
Be in a friggin Witch coven... a coven dude.
Seriously though... One of the most flavorful classes in the game. The RP almost writes itself.
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Seriously? I don't see why you would pick a witch over wizard or cleric. Could someone please explain what they are good for, if anything?
To make the GM frown (Agony Hex)
cry (Misfortune Hex)and scream (Multiple Agony Hexes)
all the while Cackling with glee :)
As everyone has stated witches are the best debuffers in pathfinder. Also, Fortune can make an ally amazing once per day.
The interesting thing about a witch is as an encounter drags on, she rapidly gains control of the encounter. She can easily devastate a BBEG with Misfortune and Agony Hexes. Against multiple enemies she can utilize crowd control spells. However, one reason I love the class is her dependence on teamates. If you don't have a team who can pack the punch she is effectively useless.
If you don't have a team who can pack the punch she is effectively useless.
Been there, last session. Multiple encounters in a day, running low on spells and out of healing, tank down, bomber dead, wizard spell-less and running for non-existant help, it was my poor witch vs an enemy arcane caster (who i'd blinded, but who had his full spells and was randomly trying to hit me). I could debuff him till the cows came home, but that doesn't reduce hitpoints and mine were almost gone from his lucky shots + summon (which I put to sleep).. a battle that I ended by the hair of my eyebrows (+12 to hit, 1d3+12 damage and 10 foot reach at level 8, man do I love those eyebrows).
Witches are fun, and when you can debuff, save vs debuff only decreases the duration (which you can keep extending via cackle) and you never run out of the debuffs, it means you rarely run out of something to do.
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...and a much inferior spell list.
Huh, I never really thought of the witch spell list being "inferior". They don't have the deepest spell pool like wizards have, but they have access to some of the stronger spells of both wizards and clerics. This versatility more than makes up for their lack of apparent depth. Heck, chose the right patron and you won't even miss not having some spells on your base list because they are right there on your patron's list. They also have access to the full summon monster chain, so can pick summons that fill holes in their abilities.
Add that the fact they have hexes that are just better than the spells they replicate (uses, DCs ect) and I don't see any problem with witches at all. Some party compositions would rather have a witch than a wizard or cleric. Arcane support with divine healing and debuffs/buffs? Its like a bard/cleric/wizard all in one. Some builds can even make them into a CM master.
Seriously... Hexes:
No-Concentration/No-Provoking abilities that can take many enemies out of the fight, whose DC automatically scales up with your highest spell levels (actually past, to 10th spell level equivalent DC). They don't benefit from School Focus DC boosts, but you can take Ability boost.
Scarred Witch Doctor is off the hook. You can easily have more HPs than 'melee' focused builds. Did you ever notice that Polymorph spells have their own bonus type (Size) but only tend to affect physical stats, not mental? Well now you have an independent, stacking source of boosts to your Casting Stat.
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The witch if for people who wanna play a MT...but not suck.
Not sure where the inferior spell list is coming from as they have most of the top tier wizard and cleric spells on their list.
And who needs feats when you have spell like abilities that kick the living snot out of what feats do?!?
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Love the OP for asking the question - this thread is a condensed "Guide to the awesomeness of Witches". Thanks my people.
WITCHES FTW!
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Yes but other casters have access to those spells too and are generally better at casting them than the witch.
I have found that to be untrue, especially at higher levels. I currently have a multiple Save or dies for every save.
How so? The witch is a SAD class, like the wizard or sorcerer. Has access to the same items and feats they do. Has UNLIMITED spell like abilities to augment said SoS/SoD spells. Have access to some of the best cleric AND wizard SoS/SoD spells...yeah seriously, not seeing it.
How so? The witch is a SAD class, like the wizard or sorcerer. Has access to the same items and feats they do. Has UNLIMITED spell like abilities to augment said SoS/SoD spells. Have access to some of the best cleric AND wizard SoS/SoD spells...yeah seriously, not seeing it.Yes but other casters have access to those spells too and are generally better at casting them than the witch.
I have found that to be untrue, especially at higher levels. I currently have a multiple Save or dies for every save.
Very much this. The witch also has more means of making sure the SOD/SOS spells stick too.
If you include the scarred witch doctor a witch can be a real tank.
You have the spells and hexes to make you a primary target and the hp to survive being the one who gets a beating. And with the scar shield and some equip you can get enough AC to evade iterative attacks, too.
We had at one "boss fight" where my scarred witch doctor was both, the top damage dealer and the tank.
In the end it was a close fight but with the help of our life oracle who was healing my pc and some summoned monsters who kept the BBEG away from me for one turn we took him down without losses.
And because of the different spell list, including some variety through patrons you can build some nice things.
For example I had thought about doing the following for carrion crown:
A witch with the water patron who sees herself as Razmiran Priest (same fluff as the sorc archetype) with the false focus feat and a dip into alchemist. With that combo a pc can create holy water for free and deal a nice amount of damage to undead with it.
It's not super powerful. All I wanted to say is that the different spell list can be a boon as well as a drawback.
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Looking over Scarred Witch Doctor again, something jumped out at me:
A scarred witch doctor uses Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs, number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes normally determined by her Intelligence.
Nowhere does it say that the Scarred Witch Doctor uses her Constitution modifier to determine her bonus spells per day for having a high ability score; by RAW, bonus spells still seem to key off of Intelligence.
Probably just an error, but if it were deliberate, it would give the Scarred Witch Doctor an actual drawback and make it slightly less SAD.
yeah...
i would believe it was intentional except the bonus spells at 1st level bit.
why gain those but not bonus spells at later level?
i hit FAQ though.
If you ever need some people cooked then the witch is your, ehm, girl.
Also if you ever need to recreate some of the most famous moments in "A chinese ghost story" the witch is a must have as well.
yeah...
i would believe it was intentional except the bonus spells at 1st level bit.
why gain those but not bonus spells at later level?
i hit FAQ though.
Yeah, it seemed weird that they'd remember the extra spells known at first level (which is useful but gets less relevant as time goes on, and which isn't something all casting classes have to deal with) but forget about the bonus spells per day (which is always relevant and which every casting class receives so it should be standard; this is actually the first thing mentioned by the Sorcerer's Sage and Empyreal bloodlines).
Just one person comes to mind when you mention the witch archetype White-Haired Witch ....Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo..yes the nose hair king.Just fluff it to let you use both your nosehairs and hair.Now you can use The Fist of the Nosehair.