I'd like to nominate the Dwarven Paladin Stonelord archetype! He basically a mix of a paladin and a stalwart defender, add in steel soul and glory of old and he gets amazing saves (especially against spells, spell-like effects, and poisons). He can wear the heaviest armor and not be encumbered by it, he gains defensive stance, you can pick up variant channeling (protection) to add AC to yourself and everyone else in the group, gains natural armor bonuses up to +5, you get stone-strike which ignore hardness acts as adamantine + magical when you hit with it (replaces smite), get a nifty earth elemental to help you tank and be your flanking buddy, and eventually you can no longer be poisoned, critted, stunned, or paralyzed!
Just my 2 cents...
For a good mundane tank choice. Tower Shield Specialist Fighter.
I have a half orc that just clocked lvl 3 and he has AC 25
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In response to the Dwarven Paladin Stonelord and Tower Shield Specialist Fighter I ask: what incentive does the enemy have to attack you? They walk around you and hit your squishies with little or no retribution. Being super durable is a cool tank strategy if you want to fight all the enemies yourself while tripping over the bodies of your dead compatriots.
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The point is that if you can't deal meaningful damage or stop the enemies from moving/acting, your high mitigation is wasted. You plant a sword in the enemy's head for 1d6+4 damage at level 5, and he willingly takes your attack of opprotunity (another 1d6+4 damage, woooo) to chase down the archer that dealt him 2d8+16. Now your melee character is running around, missing chances at full-attacks, trying to be in the way of an enemy that's chasing an archer.
Mitigation is important, but it's useless if you can't apply it to the benefit of the party.
The point Riuken just mentioned has been brought up a few times but hasn't been very well addressed by the majority of builds. Don't misunderstand, most of these suggestions have been great and meet the general idea of a tank superbly. Usually when one thinks tank it immediately conjures up an idea of hardy durability and survivability, usually with a splash of martial competency, and that model has been executed and shown through an impressive number of classes and separate approaches flawlessly. The aggro aspect is a very important consideration though and could use a little more emphasis.
That said, the primary ways I know of to focus on that more are few. I expect a lot of responses to the incentive, at least mechanically, would be Compel Hostility and/or "the same build I posted...plus Antagonize." So in order to avoid pigeon-holing the matter in such a way, the best way I think to approach it is through a less "rules make them attack me" way, simply because there are so few and effective, and more through simple rationalization.
Explain the builds tactics, what options you have to stop an enemy attempting to charge your feeble friend, and ultimately what reason a GM would realistically focus attacks on your self-healing adamantium reinforced tank of invulnerability and doom apart from just trying to make you feel special because that's why you built him that way. Why, tactically, would an enemy either want to or be forced to contend against you, when it's a clearly better idea to treat you like a smelly boulder they know they'd chip a tooth on and go for the juicy dude with just enough armor to give a satisfying crunch when it eats them instead?
This is a long post, so bear with pls.
I see the tank role focus as being able to take hits, have staying power and being able to influence enemies to attack you because your up front and close, and because to ignore you is folly at their peril. So this would actually be a 50/50 of survivability and controller. The number one class for survivability that many here seem to agree with is Paladin. They are the main ingredient I think to tanking. Divine caster with controlling / buff / heals makes you very important target.
I think Balricks stonelord would be fantastic as well as my character type that i just remade from 3.5 to pf, an Paladin Oracle Hellknight.
Sinse my god is a god of magic, all dragons, the moon, shadows and darkness we just redubbed them Dragonknights, lol, fit pretty well.
I have remade my character from the old 3.5 campaigns we used to play and at 16 he works really well as a tank and party centre.
Aasimar Paladin 4, Oracle 6, Hellknight Signifier 6.
Purifier Archtype
Ancestral Mystery (slight mod of adding Channel Negative, gm approved, but you get alignment channel on top of paladin channel lvls)
So i have
-Channel Negative at 16th lvl, 14th lvl heal channel (feat),
-Lay on Hands 14th lvl
-Super saves from Divine Grace
-Aura of Good and Courage, buffs allies
-Divine Health
-Smite 14th lvl (14 dam per hit, Cha bonus to strike which use power attack for even more damage, AC bonus)
-Celestial Armor lvl 8 (same as fighter armor mastery)
-Spirit shield is a big mitigator, 50% miss chance pretty much at all times vs arrors, rays, ranged attacks ext, you will have high AC and high saves.
-Spirit of the Warrior is like an improved Rage with none of the drawbacks
-Quicken Channel
-Versatile Channeller
-Improved Channel Force (aoe pull or push 20 ft, pretty good control)
-Versatile Channel select targets affected
-Alignment Channel (AT)
-Power Attack (use with smite and divine might for full bab, strong dam)
Overall I think Channel is huge for a tank role. AoE heals to party at a move? action.
Healing hands on yourself when needed as a swift.
As a heavy Divine caster you have access to buff and controller spells. Controller spells being very important i think to a tank as it means if they want to stop having to fight the uphill battle of being controlled, stop him from healing the party and adding buffs they really need to take him out quick.
So in 1 round you could say cast divine control spell as standard, AoE pull/push Neg Channel as move, and Heal hands as swift. So you could perform 2 controlling actions in a round. Your not amazing with your sword, but a good portion of the time you have some abilities to really make it a threat, not to include buffing yourself.
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Sadly I've only seen one mention of the Samurai.
A Ronin Samurai is virtually immune to all duration spells at 2nd level. The easiest way to defeat a tank is through control/"save or die" spells.
Resolve makes the Samurai overcome conditions. Now your sword/naginata of death is unstoppable.
A Samurai's challenge allows him to stand toe to toe with a BBEG. Also it gives you a roleplaying method to "aggro" an opponent.
Finally, a Samurai can still put out effective DPR compared to the fighter while having access to 4+Int skills.
Multiclass your Samurai with Fighter (Weapon Master) 4 if DPR seems to be a problem.
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Interesting that cleric and druid haven't been mentioned at all yet in this thread.
That aside, I'm currently playing the tank in a game right now as a Rogue/Cavalier (eventual build will be Rogue 8/Cavalier 2). A single successful sneak attack will make most opponents shaken, sickened, and will have -2 to hit me (for -6 to hit and -4 to saves and skills), which meshes well with my two companions, a save-or-lose focused cleric and a bomb-using alchemist.
Surviving: I rely on a high Con and AC plus reducing opponents' to-hit to survive. It's fun but very reliant on an aggressive playstyle and sometimes falls on its face :P
Getting their attention: Something about 'rogue' triggers my DM's kill scent, plus he is extremely averse to any creature provoking Attacks of Opportunity. More generally, I build for strength+power attack and sneak attack to make opponents aware that my character is a threat.
I mentioned that I thought cleric/oracle make for great tank controllers.
Problem with many tanks as someone earlier mentioned is why would anyone attack them? In the case of cleric/oracle is they can really make it difficult to do anything marginally successful on the battlefield. They have above average hp, wear heavy armor, can buff and heal themselves or party with an aoe channel for a significant amount that reduces the effectiveness of entire opposing groups results of that round.
So your team just took a fireball or two and the wizard and/or rogue are almost toast, the cleric on a quicken channel move action all of a sudden does upto 10d6 heal to everyone. Then he throws down a wall of stone shaped around the group with battlements to benefit his side, which also breaks line of sight for enemy casters and funnels many of the melee to the choke points. Or reverse that, the cleric puts up a line of blade barrier behind the enemy, then uses improved/greater channel force to push them thru the wall. Now they have to either go thru the wall again or take alot longer trying to get around it.
So who do you guys target first in your games? The wizard casting fireball or the cleric that aoe heals everyone, throws down ranged control / damage making his team survive much longer all in one round.
I see this scenario similar to mmo's. If the other team has a healer, you always target them first. Add that now they have aoe heals and ranged control, they would be my first target. Doesnt matter how weak the wizard or rogue might be, because you almost get them down and then bam they are back in the game with good health again. If your team doesnt have a cleric doing the same then your prolly screwed.
Once you remove that guy, it becomes a whole lot easier to down the rest of the team. Now add in some pally levels for extra survivability and it is just that much harder to take him down.
The samurai and cavilier are good but limited, they in most cases can be ignored or limited number of enemies per turn can be dealt with. Though they can challenge BBEG as someone mentioned, but what about the rest of the opponents.
Just like tanks in many mmo's, you just ignore them unless they have some real ability to protect their team making it much harder for you to kill them. So far i have found the same here, just ignore them if they stand up front puffing their chest out.
Summoners can call alot of troops, but how long can they survive ranged assaults on themselves? Are their saves good enough to save against spells or abilities that disable them?
So slightly off topic but related;
What does everyone here target first on the enemy?
What do you target last?
Do you have to ever deal with opponents that can bypass your lines and go after your sweet spots like wiz?
I ask because if your first answer isnt the tank, then they prolly just arent being very effective if no one hits the meat shield.
Damn post monster! Ok take 2...
I've found the best way to deal with your enemies wanting to ignore you and attack your squishier companions is simply to let them.
I'm playing a tank character in my current campaign and have had great success with an Honor Guard Cavalier (Order of the Dragon) / Golden Legionnaire prestige class.
At lvl 11 my +3 Benevolent Full Plate allows me to grant +8 AC with the Bodyguard feat, along with another +5 at the cost of 3 of my own AC. Even if enemies do manage to land a hit on the Witch with his new +13 AC I can just opt to absorb the damage with In Harm's Way.
In situations that allow for it I have also outfitted my mount with +2 Benevolent Barding allowing him to grant an additional +4 with Bodyguard.
To be fair, Golden Legionnaire can be a little tricky to fit into some campaigns but the build would work nearly as well as a pure Honor Guard.
Very nice, first build I've seen using Bodyguard and In Harm's Way. Is there a way you overcome the adjacent requirement? Or a reason it isn't as circumstantial as one would assume? Sometimes things that may look good or sub-par on paper end up being a lot better or worse in actual play. Either way, great build to focus ally protection through mechanics.
Trip builds are pretty popular it seems to try to get reach and disable enemy actions, but it has been addressed as something very difficult to keep useful in higher levels so a little harder to justify. Certainly has it's merit up until mid-levels though.
Past that, I think healing potential makes one of the best rationalizations so far in why you may be prioritized. However, it does get a little gray in actual play. If you look at it from the other side, facing a heavily armored opponent who can heal and trying to protect the squishies, there are a few things to consider.
1. How much of a threat are the squishy ones vs. the healbot? Usually far more so, and especially considering when a creature spends it's own turn healing and not threatening, effectively taking itself out while mending allies.
2. Can I out-damage the healing? This is relevant to the last question because it's normally a resounding yes, which makes the idea of a healer wasting turns even more attractive.
3. How much harder will it be and how much longer will it take to dispose of the heal tank than the squishems? Even more subjective but normally the tank is far more difficult to take out, and unlike a video game, death is pretty permanent in a single encounter scenario. Meaning the paperskins who are acting as actual threats would usually be prime target once again.
I'm hardly the first to say it and the reasons are many that there are usually better things to do with a turn than in-combat healing.
However, the durable builds who can heal with a move action certainly pose the best argument for being a priority tank as they circumvent a lot of the traditional problems that encounter healing posed. I like that.
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-Race-
Human
-Classes-
Fighter (Lore Warden) 14/ Monk (Monk of the Four Winds / Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 3/ Shadow Dancer (Prestige Class) 3
-Stats-
STR 14 (+6 magic item) = 20
DEX 16 (+4 leveling)(+6 magic item) = 26
CON 15 (+2 racial)(+1 leveling) = 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 08
-Saves-
fort 22
ref 22
will 13
ac 47 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 55
touch 24 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 32
flat-footed 29
to hit with unarmed attacks with weapon finesse 26 (-4 combat expertise)(-1 fighting defensively) = 21
-Traits-
Threatening Defender
-Feat / Level Progression-
F01) Shield Focus, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
F02) Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
M03) Elemental Fist, Dodge, Crane Style
M04) Toughness, Deflect Arrows
F05) Missile Shield
F06) Crane Wing
F07) Saving Shield
F08) Bodyguard
F09) Crane Riposte
F10) Greater Shield Focus
F11) Disruptive
F12) Spellbreaker
F13) Pin Down
F14) Ray Shield
F15) Draconic Defender
F16) Mobility
M17) Monastic Legacy
S18) NONE
S19) Deepsight
M20) NONE
-Magic Gear-
Bracers of Armor(+8)
Shield (+5 Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflection)
Ring of Protection (+5)
Ring of Regeneration
Amulet of Natural Armor(+5)
Belt of Physical Might (+6 str / +6 dex)
Cloak of Resistance (+5)
-Tanking Method-
Fight with caster standing behind me since any thing that enters my threaten area will not be able to exit my threaten are via Stand Still and Pin Down as well all incoming missile attacks would veer towards me via Arrow Catching. When making an attack action fight defensively and use combat expertise to up personal ac and grant 1 adjacent party member a natural armor bonus equal to the dodge bonus from combat expertise and fighting defensively via Draconic Defender. Use AoO to grant aid another ac to an adjacent party member via Bodyguard and an immediate action grant shield bonus via Saving Shield. Negate 1 melee attack, 1 ranged spell attack, and 3 ranged missile attacks a round via Crane Wing, Ray Shield, Deflect Arrows, Missile Shield, and Arrow Deflection.
In response to the Dwarven Paladin Stonelord and Tower Shield Specialist Fighter I ask: what incentive does the enemy have to attack you? They walk around you and hit your squishies with little or no retribution. Being super durable is a cool tank strategy if you want to fight all the enemies yourself while tripping over the bodies of your dead compatriots.
Depends on your build and weapon choice. You can have power attack and use a two-handed weapon with reach or you can go with the shield and 1h route. The 2-handed will give you more DPR and "attract" more attention, but you'll lose a bit of AC in doing so.
IMHO there is no "right" answer to this question because this isn't a video game and you can't grab and sustain aggro like you do in one of them. The best you can do is try to mitigate damage for yourself and your allies and hit hard enough that they don't think they can get past you without some sort of retribution. Since the nerf to Antagonize, there isn't a real way to keep someone really focused on you within range where you can counter their attacks.
The main reason I said Stonelord is because of their versatility to mitigate damage as a tank, you get that elemental companion and the best use of your stance and your companion are when trying to bottleneck the enemies in front of you where they can NOT get past without killing you first, then you have your ranged casters and ranged melee firing over the top of your 4ft frame. Think of yourself as their shield, pick up feats that allow you to aid their AC and take their place in battle.
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Lol. Well these last few concepts have been great. I think it really helps to explain the concepts behind the character's creation and the proposed tactics and features of it. It can seem obvious to the builder but it's harder to just look at a bunch of feats and archetypes trying to find it's potential without that summary. Bravo, and keep 'em coming!
We're still lacking the druid. Possibly a summoning focused build with a way to dip some better arcane control spells and a more durable disposition through wild shape? More vulnerable than the in your face battle-bot builds alone but companion and summons for enemy distraction and some battlefield obstructions could provide good options for preventing focused attacks on the squisher folk. Maybe more a wizards role, but we gotta attempt some druid love. :P
I would worry more about high level opponents not being trip able if more than a coup LR of my campaigns ever got that far.
1. PALADIN- Heavy Armor, Cha to Saves and D10 HD, plus lay on hands.
Paladins effectively have swift action HP whenever they need it. They can be hard to affect with Magic and if they wanna use a shield can be hard to hit. Their BFG is Smite.
I'm playing this soon, and the tiefling trait 'Suicidal' that lets you jump in front of someone being attacked next to you as an immediate action makes it so that you can even tank the opposing force's big guns, like ranged touch attacks or critical hits. I'm really interested in seeing how it works out.
I'm playing a Barbarin 2/ Monk 10 right now and have proven to be a ridiculously good party tank. High hit points and even higher when raging with a minimum 4 attacks with a flurry I take the heat off of other players and deal some serious damage. Though admittedly some of our group's house rules have allowed me to play a monk much more effectively than RAW.My one question is did you go 10 levels monk then 2 levels barb, or 2 levels barb then 10 levels. If you went the latter, then you can't rage. Ex Barbarians (those who turn lawful) lose their ability to rage, and also the their rage powers. If you chose to go, monk > barb, then you are fine (so long as you don't plan on taking any more monk levels)Order wouldn't matter if you either took the martial artist archetype of monk or the aasimar racial ability that lets you be a neutral good monk.
I actually took the Barbarian levels between Monk levels. Our group takes some of the RAW with a grain of salt. We believe a good backstory can trump some of the more mundane rules of classes. Afterall, the goal is to have fun. Jen is an absolute powerhouse. With a 52 AC and a Flurry of 25/25/20/20 he's hard as hell to hit and hits often.
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By "some" of the RAW I really only mean alignment restrictions on classes and those that say you can't take any more levels in a given class if you multiclass.
In response to the Dwarven Paladin Stonelord and Tower Shield Specialist Fighter I ask: what incentive does the enemy have to attack you? They walk around you and hit your squishies with little or no retribution. Being super durable is a cool tank strategy if you want to fight all the enemies yourself while tripping over the bodies of your dead compatriots.Depends on your build and weapon choice. You can have power attack and use a two-handed weapon with reach or you can go with the shield and 1h route. The 2-handed will give you more DPR and "attract" more attention, but you'll lose a bit of AC in doing so.
IMHO there is no "right" answer to this question because this isn't a video game and you can't grab and sustain aggro like you do in one of them. The best you can do is try to mitigate damage for yourself and your allies and hit hard enough that they don't think they can get past you without some sort of retribution. Since the nerf to Antagonize, there isn't a real way to keep someone really focused on you within range where you can counter their attacks.
The main reason I said Stonelord is because of their versatility to mitigate damage as a tank, you get that elemental companion and the best use of your stance and your companion are when trying to bottleneck the enemies in front of you where they can NOT get past without killing you first, then you have your ranged casters and ranged melee firing over the top of your 4ft frame. Think of yourself as their shield, pick up feats that allow you to aid their AC and take their place in battle.
Your video game reference would make alot more sense if it was talking about mmo pvp (player vs player = players vs gm). Because what you describe is scripted, and can only function that way. Now give the opponents real intelligence, aka controlled by the gm, and now you have a different story.
A traditional tank is good and all, but again, what convinces your intelligent opponents to attack you the tough as nails tanker or the squishy high damage machine?
And sure you can choose feats to be a better tank like the post above about mitigating incoming damage directed at your allies but then your damage is not going to be anywhere near the squishy damage doer. I mean there is a reason 'logically anyway' that squishy guys are well, squishy, because they can do greater damage to the other team.
Again, to each of you, who do you target first and who is last?
-A cleric with aoe heals as move action, and controller spells that stop your team from even getting to the squishies all in one turn? You bet, let alone degrading your efforts by healing some of that damage you or your wizard fireball did?
-A wizard like arcane caster that is squishy? You bet.
-A tank that can take hits but nowhere near as dangerous as teh wizard? Heck no. If i am going to get hit, i would rather it come from the tank than the wizard or rogue as they are more likely to really mess me up.
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The deal about intelligence goes both ways. There is some thing called tactics and if a group uses them then things go smoothly. At times the dm cant target the squishes because the party knows what team work and tactics are and has set up a defensive line or is using cover or even is bottle necking the opponent. The above tank build of mine true does not do butt loads of damage and is focuses in survivability and protecting those that are near them like the smart wizard who is standing literally behind me so it cant get targeted by ranged attacks and if any melee attacks the wizard its getting a +12 ac boast so it wont get hit as often or even at all. There is such thing as good groups out there that knows how to utilize the other members and work off each others disadvantages and advantages. After all the 2h barbarian over there is gonna have crud ac and if it gets hit its over. The sword and board tank though does no hit hard it can take a lot of hits and ignore a lot of hits. O and btw with the above tank build i made its unarmed attacks hit for 2d6 + str.
The deal about intelligence goes both ways. There is some thing called tactics and if a group uses them then things go smoothly. At times the dm cant target the squishes because the party knows what team work and tactics are and has set up a defensive line or is using cover or even is bottle necking the opponent. The above tank build of mine true does not do butt loads of damage and is focuses in survivability and protecting those that are near them like the smart wizard who is standing literally behind me so it cant get targeted by ranged attacks and if any melee attacks the wizard its getting a +12 ac boast so it wont get hit as often or even at all. There is such thing as good groups out there that knows how to utilize the other members and work off each others disadvantages and advantages. After all the 2h barbarian over there is gonna have crud ac and if it gets hit its over. The sword and board tank though does no hit hard it can take a lot of hits and ignore a lot of hits. O and btw with the above tank build i made its unarmed attacks hit for 2d6 + str.
Actually i really love your tank build. It makes me wish i had more feats for my Pally/Oracle /w channeling build to take some teamwork feats to really add some of that extra oomph to the team.
But if i was to play a more man at arms style tank that would be it. I love that you took 3 lvl of shadowdancer, which adds some unique elements like stealth and evasion for tankiness, but also gives you more options than just swinging a sword or punching it in the face, lol
In general, i should add that a tank that even makes the enemies skirt around him is still successfully contributing to the role as they opponent has to get around him. The tough ones is rogues or enemies that can bypass your strategic barriers with things like passing thru walls, ethereal, dimension door ext.
a polearm fighter with the step up line and combat reflexes, though not having as much AC as their tower shield wielding counterpart, has reach and a nasty short range offense. and the sheer minimum to be nasty with a bow is to invest a base 14 in dexterity (before gear) and take deadly aim. the physical perfection belt also works wonders for a fighter, the bonuses may not be as big, but they help a tank quite well.
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The OP about defining the 'tank' role is interesting. Personally (for example) some of the suggestions up-thread strike me more as what I'd call a 'controller' than a 'tank'. For me your priority with a 'tank' build is being able to take a beating without the constant need to drain healing resources - which in very generic terms comes down to AC and/or DR. Sure you need to be able to contribute something meaningful in combat too, but if you're expecting to draw all the bad guy's attention all the time, deal the most damage, and be the most resistent to damage in your group then you're probably less a tank and more a gloryhound... IMHO, natch... ;)
A standard sword-n-board two-weapon-fighting melee type makes a pretty good tank. Generally you need both armour and a shield to stack the magical AC bonuses to keep your AC at a reasonable level without investing every character resource in doing so, plus the usual ring, amulet, and a healthy Dex bonus too (you're probably aiming at an absolute minimum of your level +20 for your AC at any given level, although more would be better). The sword-n-board style Feats get very nice as you level. Shield Slam is particulary good for adding in some battlefield control (damage plus moving the enemy plus knocking the enemy prone, all in one hit), whether on a full attack or at the end of a charge.
Fighters obviously have the Feats to pull this off, although the high Dex requirements on the TWF Feats make it easier for a Ranger if Ability Scores are an issue (although a nice high Dex helps your AC too, of course, you're generally going to want - Agile weapons aside - a primary focus in Strength to keep your damage-dealing potential at a reasonable level). Rangers also bring a helpful animal companion to the mix as well as a favoured enemy bonus that makes TWF much more deadly (stack as much of it as possible in one FE and rely on the wonderful instant enemy spell against anyone else) and a very nice selection of spells too, so of the two I'd probably lean more towards the Ranger.
Tactics-wise you don't always need to go for the full-attacks, even though you're a TWF type. Feel free to ignore your current enemies and charge any bad guy who tries to do an end-run around you to the squishies: you're built with enough AC so that AoO against you don't scare you, after all. For that matter you can freely dash through enemy threatened squares, provoking AoO you can be fairly confident to ignore, but eating up the bad guys' AoO for the turn so that the rest of your team can move and maneuvre in relative safety.
As you level boosting your AC bonus items in the most cost-effective manner is important, but don't skimp on other stuff for just an extra (and expensive) plus one here and there. If the bad guys tend to tactically target certain types ('kill the healer' or 'kill the wizard' or whatever) then the glamered property on your armour can be worth its weight in gold (after all, who can resist targeting the guy in the pointy hat covered in stars?).
This is just one suggestion, of course - I think it's nice that the thread's pointed out that no one class has an automatic monopoly on this aspect of the game.
In response to the Dwarven Paladin Stonelord and Tower Shield Specialist Fighter I ask: what incentive does the enemy have to attack you? They walk around you and hit your squishies with little or no retribution. Being super durable is a cool tank strategy if you want to fight all the enemies yourself while tripping over the bodies of your dead compatriots.Depends on your build and weapon choice. You can have power attack and use a two-handed weapon with reach or you can go with the shield and 1h route. The 2-handed will give you more DPR and "attract" more attention, but you'll lose a bit of AC in doing so.
IMHO there is no "right" answer to this question because this isn't a video game and you can't grab and sustain aggro like you do in one of them. The best you can do is try to mitigate damage for yourself and your allies and hit hard enough that they don't think they can get past you without some sort of retribution. Since the nerf to Antagonize, there isn't a real way to keep someone really focused on you within range where you can counter their attacks.
The main reason I said Stonelord is because of their versatility to mitigate damage as a tank, you get that elemental companion and the best use of your stance and your companion are when trying to bottleneck the enemies in front of you where they can NOT get past without killing you first, then you have your ranged casters and ranged melee firing over the top of your 4ft frame. Think of yourself as their shield, pick up feats that allow you to aid their AC and take their place in battle.
Your video game reference would make alot more sense if it was talking about mmo pvp (player vs player = players vs gm). Because what you describe is scripted, and can only function that way. Now give the opponents real intelligence, aka controlled by the gm, and now you have a different story.
A traditional tank is good and all, but again, what convinces your intelligent opponents to attack...
That was my point exactly. This isn't a video game that you can "grab aggro" with. This is a game with a GM controlling the monsters and NPC's so you really can't get the kind of tank that the OP was asking about IMO. He asks for the "best tank" and there are tons of different builds that all lend to great tanks in PF, but there is no "best." This is also why I brought up the nerf to Antagonize, because previously everything (wizards included here) would have to drop whatever they were doing and ran over at you to attempt to melee with you. Now they can just focus on you from the back behind cover or behind a line of their allies.
So in my opinion what makes a good tank is someone who has good survivability and that can control the tempo of the battlefield. There are ways of doing this through usage of terrain, reach, spells, feats, companions, and stances (in the case of the stonelord and stalwart defender).
Also, the best tank is the tank that you have the most fun with. Try out different things and see what works best for you and your play style.
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I think the essence of being a tank is preventing things from happening that the healer would have to fix later. If you can make attacks miss (through having them target your high AC, miss chances, whatever) reduce their effect, or negate spell effects, you're tanking.
Importantly, it's not about preventing bad stuff hapening to YOU, but bad stuff happening to the whole party. You have a collective AC pool and effectiveness level: you want these both to stay as high as possible. The healer gets it high after it gets lowered, the tank keeps it from being lowered in the first place.
i submit a druid animal companion Ankylosaurus in full plate. 1st level 29 AC.
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i submit a druid animal companion Ankylosaurus in full plate. 1st level 29 AC.Doesn't work plate barding is way beyond 1st level wealth.
There are meny that are in range. Starting at level 1 you could have medium armor profincey for your animal companion. Chain Shirt Barding is only 200gp, and Breastplate Barding is only 400gp. Both well with in the GP for a level one character.
Ranger with his trip buddy the small cat.
Small Cat (Less damage then the bear. Hase trip on bit attack.)
Dex 5 + Chain Shirt 4 + Size 1 + Natural Armor 1 = AC 21
Level 5 (Did not advance size. +2 Dex, Con)
Dex 6 + Mithral Chain Shirt(+1) 5 + Size 1 + Natural Armor 3 = 25
Level 10
Dex 6 + Mithral Chain Shirt(+3) 7 + Size 1 + Natural Armor 7 = 31
Druid with his death dealing bear.
Bear (Hight damage out put. No specal attacks.)
Dex 2 + Breastplate Barding 6 + Size 1 + Natural Armor 2 = 21
Level 5
Dex 2 + Breastplate Barding(+1) 7 + Natural Armor 4 = 23
Level 10
Dex 3 + Breastplate Barding(+3) 9 + Natural Armor 8 = 30
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Also not sure how you can start level 1 with medium armor proficiency either because it requires light armor proficiency. Last I checked animal companions are not proficient with light armor naturally.
You are correct. Can not take Medium armor till level 2.
So Bear Dex 2 + Chain Shirt 4 + Size 1 + Natural Armor 2 = 19Just pointing out that it is a good way to make a tank. Even if they go for the player and not the animal. There still in trouble. As you will have both your character, and the animal companion.
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You guys are all wrong, snake style and max sense motive and noble scion with a splash of monk. You can roll twice once per round for sense motive, and once a day take 20.
You make sense motive checks against any attack you're aware of and use it as your ac or touch ac.
Add in some skill focus and max it out like a mofo.
Lvl 20 you'd easily see touch ac/ac @ 60
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@lantzkev
The problem with that is that u can only perform the snake style defense 1ce a round against only 1 attack as an immediate action meaning u just ate up a butt load of feats and a swift action to do so. Also a nat 20 will always hit no mater what ur ac is. Now admittedly the most recent build i posted can be done only x amount of times a round but it does not eat up any of ur actions and since its a pure negate that means it can be used against enemy crits. Plus ur ac does not need to be that high since no enemy nor player can hit that high in pathfinder at least.
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actually it's just one level for the monk master of many styles, bam you've got snake style.
Also it's a immediate action, yeah you can only do it once per turn, but how often are you worried about multiple combatants acting on their same turn? (not sure about you but my dm runs multiple initiatives for every npc, unless it's waves of minions)
Consider that with a level dip in monk, and using a single feat (skill focus sense motive)
you're looking at lvl 10, a +21 to sense motive (assuming 10 ranks in sense, +2 from snake, +3 from trained bonus, +6 from feat) Not sure about you but most opponents doing a touch attack will be hard pressed to beat it, and if they aren't all acting on the exact same turn, you can use it on everyone of their turns.
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If you took your build and substituted master of many styles, and pop'd snake style in there, even if they rolled the natural 20, they'd never hit you.
Then again, like you said you're limited to once around, the same weakness you pointed out in my "once a turn" is also present in yours.
Also I'm not sure expertise and fighting defensively stack like the way you're trying to.
crane style is also once per round. it's merely more automatic.
A vote here for Armiger from Super Genius. Incredibly resistent to physical damage, and also improves AC for adjacent friends.
My vote's for Sacred Shield paladin (nearby party members taken 50% less damage is beyond awesome) or Invulnerable Rager barbarian (preferably with a dip in alchemist).
I'm playing on at the present utilizing Stalwart, for a current DR 7/-- (CL 8). It's come in handy so far. I do plenty enough damage to make it a bad idea to ignore me.
I only really skimmed this thread, but I have to say that Heavy Armor is very overrated. It's great at lower levels but after 8 or so, it's all about DEX and magic.
That said, I want to agree that Kensai is an awesome tank. They can hit like a mack truck, they can control the battle field, and jack their AC through the roof. Top it off, their strong saves are Fort and Will and since they need to buff DEX, they get nice saves all around. Get a ring of Evasion and a ring of Freedom of Movement to take care of. The do have lower hit points than the stereotypical tank, but with spells like Vampire Touch they can keep themselves going.
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Best Tank:
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Human Paladin (Divine Defender & Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 14
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 8
CHA - 15 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level)
Traits:
Indomitable Faith
Deft Dodger
Feats:
1st - Fey Foundling
1st - Power Attack
3rd - Deadly Aim
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Extra Lay on Hands
9th - Extra Lay on Hands
11th - Extra Lay on Hands
13th - Extra Lay on Hands
15th - Extra Lay on Hands
17th - Extra Lay on Hands
19th - Extra Lay on Hands
Lay on Hands is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. This character is able to swift self-heal for unbelievable amounts of damage, is able to Smite pretty much at will (adding Power Attack or Deadly Aim into the mix) and can project defensive auras to all of his teammates, increasing their saving throws and armor class. He can use heavy armor and enhance it with Divine Bond, gains a number of immunities, and has astronomical saves. Give him a reach weapon so that he can better control and a bow so that he can Smite from range.
Seriously a bad@ss character built to put the team on his back.
Let's look at the character at, oh let's just say 12th level:
His base saves before enhancement from spells or magic items are Fort +15, Reflex +12, Will +13
He wears heavy armor enhanceable by Divine Bond
He's immune to Disease
He's immune to Fear and grants allies within 10' a +4 bonus to save against it.
He's immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities and grants allies within 10' a +4 bonus to save against them.
He has 19 uses of Lay on Hands a day which can be used to heal himself for 6d6+18 damage as a swift action, can be used to grant +2 AC and saving throws to all allies within 15' for 5 rounds (as well as automatically stabilizing them and making them immune to Bleed damage), can be used to grant himself additional Smites (which include an additional +5 AC bonus) or to fuel the ability Powerful Justice which grants a Smite ability to all within 10'.
At 12th level his spell list would look something like this:
1st: Hero's Defiance (x2), Compel Hostility (x2)
2nd: Litany of Righteousness (x2), Protection from Evil - Communal
3rd: Blessing of Fervor (x2)
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@lantzkev
Snake Style and Skill Focus do not stack since there both a feat bonus and neither of them state they stack with other feats unlike some feats out there like weapon focus.
Also the DMs i have played with sends hordes of monsters at us quite often. Even in most boss encounters other than big bad guy were facing personal guard and traps in combat all at 1ce. I see a lot of DMs out there on these and other boards were im saying to my self "man, this DM is taking it easy on them." Then again i have played primarily in 3e and 3.5 games and has even ventured through the Tomb of Horrors on a few characters. So yes, i do expect to fight things that are going to hit me multiple times and use actual tactics against the party and me.
i submit a druid animal companion Ankylosaurus in full plate. 1st level 29 AC.Doesn't work plate barding is way beyond 1st level wealth.
characters cant rob banks? any amount of money is available at 1st level if you can get away with it.
although my point was that you can have a really high ac starting at first level with no magic, and the creature doesnt need proficiency to get the ac bonus.