"Because us dwarves have mastered the art of cleavin'"
I am enjoying playing this Dwarven Urban Ranger in Hell's Rebels (Two-handed weapon combat style). He had great cleave by lvl6 as well as goblin cleaver and orc hewer.
Because the image of cutting through one guy to hit another is cool? Because the DM uses an alternate system such as the Unchained Action Economy where getting multiple hits off a 2-act attack might be worth it? Because your DM actually tries to accommodate for the choices of their players and puts lots of mooks in the fights so your choice is validated rather than saying "well that was stupid, you should've optimized"? Because you're playing Mythic and plan on making some horrific Power Attack / Cleave / Improved Cleaving Finish reach kineticist and abusing your huge size and extremely high base damage while simultaneously doing things like entangling enemies on hit?
I get that it's not the best feat, but come on. Maybe for PFS it isn't worth it, since the DMs can't actually alter the modules, but for home games it should be fine as long as your DM works with you to fulfill the concept.
If an option is only good because you alter the game to make it so, it's not really good, is it? This is like people claiming Rogues are awesome when you houserule the crap out of stealth, flanking and sneak attack.
Yeah, houserule Rogues can do lots of cool things and Cleave is super useful against those 1 HP goblin hordes that didn't exist until just now, but we're discussing Paizo Rogues and Cleave in relation to natural, uncaring encounter design. Both of which suck.
Your post comes off to me as passive-aggressive, but I'll assume that's unintentional because I'd rather not start something off a misinterpretation. I said Cleave should be fine in situations where your game doesn't adhere to the assumptions of the core rules - whether by houseruling or using alternate systems such as the ones presented in Unchained or Ultimate Combat - or if your DM works with you to fulfill your character concept. Most APs and Modules make you fight single enemies or small groups (likely because large, detailed fights with lots of bodies on the field can be difficult and time-consuming to run and take up too much page space), but in home games you may encounter something more like this for smaller spaces, or even something like this for much larger-scale conflicts. Such scenarios aren't unreasonable when the BBEG has lots of prep time, and most hordes and armies aren't composed of 1000+ CR-appropriate enemies because most creatures on Golarion aren't actually that powerful. Most people never run into a true dragon or a lich because they're pretty rare, but many will end up seeing or even fighting a goblin, orc, skeleton, etc because they're much more common creatures. If your DM has a campaign featuring necromancy or large-scale conflicts you will likely end up in many situations where having Cleave is pretty useful because that's what Cleave was made for. Unfortunately that isn't very common in published material and thus PFS rarely sees it, but for home games where the DM can alter content it's a pretty bad decision to fail to consider the abilities of your party when designing encounters. If you have a player whose character revels in being in the middle of combat, cleaving enemies left and right for the thrill of battle, and their character takes the Cleave feat line but you only rarely have fights with lots of enemies then the DM is the one making the feat bad. The comparison to the Rogue class isn't really relevant because the Rogue lacks a clear direction with their class features - they have lots of skills but skills rarely do much, they have sneak attack which could make them strong combatants but have terrible survivability and only 3/4 BAB, and they have Rogue Talents that are largely underwhelming or just feats. The class lacks direction, but it's pretty clear what situations Cleave was made for.
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And as for Rogue .At level 10 and up its why bother they are pretty useless. But try making it to level 5 without one in the group. I prefer to play at low level as at high level it easy for any spell caster that has a brain to break the game.
You misspelled, "And as for Rogue. It is completely superfluous and multiple other classes perform all aspects of its 'job' only better. You can play at any level without one easily."
There is a way in the weapon masters handbook to combine vital strike and cleave. You have to have improved vital strike to take it though.I think you are talking about All-Consuming Swing which is kinda cool, but when you do it you take the extra vital strike damage (not blocked by DR) as well as the enemy. Which severely limits it in my eyes.No, I'm talking about the two-handed weapon trick Cleaving Smash.
Cleaving SmashAdditional Prerequisite(s): Cleave, Improved Vital Strike, Power Attack
When you use Cleave, you can add the additional damage from Vital Strike to both your initial and your secondary attacks. If you also have the Greater Vital Strike feat, you can instead add the damage from Improved Vital Strike to both your initial and your secondary attacks.
Wow! why would anyone take all-consuming swing when that feat exists?
Wow! why would anyone take all-consuming swing when that feat exists?There is a way in the weapon masters handbook to combine vital strike and cleave. You have to have improved vital strike to take it though.I think you are talking about All-Consuming Swing which is kinda cool, but when you do it you take the extra vital strike damage (not blocked by DR) as well as the enemy. Which severely limits it in my eyes.No, I'm talking about the two-handed weapon trick Cleaving Smash.
Cleaving SmashAdditional Prerequisite(s): Cleave, Improved Vital Strike, Power Attack
When you use Cleave, you can add the additional damage from Vital Strike to both your initial and your secondary attacks. If you also have the Greater Vital Strike feat, you can instead add the damage from Improved Vital Strike to both your initial and your secondary attacks.
Well, All-Consuming Swing works with any weapon unlike Weapon Trick (Cleaving Smash), so if you're using something like a natural weapon (a vital striking cleaving hippo druid for example) then All-Consuming Swing still has a use.
All-Consuming Swing also gets you an extra die since the weapon trick downgrades you one from the level of vital strike you're at which ACS doesn't do.
I'm not sure if All Consuming Swing would work with Mythic Vital Strike, but it could be really painful if it did...
Cleave is an auto for most martials in my opinion.
At any level the ability to close and make two attacks against groups of enemies is essential.
It gets worse though if your GM has some kind of "All mobs have avoiding cleaver opportunities hardwired into their brain" disease.
Cleave is an auto for most martials in my opinion.
At any level the ability to close and make two attacks against groups of enemies is essential.
It gets worse though if your GM has some kind of "All mobs have avoiding cleaver opportunities hardwired into their brain" disease.
If most of the warrior characters you've made have Cleave... why wouldn't any experienced enemy wise up and not stand in Cleave positions? Cleave positions that look remarkably similar to Fireball positions
and Black Tentacle positions.
and stop-taking-actions-cloud positions.
Unless you're a shield wall phalanx vs. melee martial characters, the risk-reward is not there for it.
Cleave is an auto for most martials in my opinion.
At any level the ability to close and make two attacks against groups of enemies is essential.
It gets worse though if your GM has some kind of "All mobs have avoiding cleaver opportunities hardwired into their brain" disease.
If most of the warrior characters you've made have Cleave... why wouldn't any experienced enemy wise up and not stand in Cleave positions? Cleave positions that look remarkably similar to Fireball positions
and Black Tentacle positions.
and stop-taking-actions-cloud positions.
Unless you're a shield wall phalanx vs. melee martial characters, the risk-reward is not there for it.
This is a very good point; the existence of caster AOE's radically changes the tactics in Pathfinder vs. the real world. Clustering in a uniform group is simply bad strategy when doing so could get your entire unit wiped out in a single spell. In that way, phalanx formations aren't actually "realistic" within the Pathfinder ruleset because no one with experience fighting magic would ever use them, preferring to spread out.
This is a very good point; the existence of caster AOE's radically changes the tactics in Pathfinder vs. the real world. Clustering in a uniform group is simply bad strategy when doing so could get your entire unit wiped out in a single spell. In that way, phalanx formations aren't actually "realistic" within the Pathfinder ruleset because no one with experience fighting magic would ever use them, preferring to spread out.Cleave is an auto for most martials in my opinion.
At any level the ability to close and make two attacks against groups of enemies is essential.
It gets worse though if your GM has some kind of "All mobs have avoiding cleaver opportunities hardwired into their brain" disease.
If most of the warrior characters you've made have Cleave... why wouldn't any experienced enemy wise up and not stand in Cleave positions? Cleave positions that look remarkably similar to Fireball positions
and Black Tentacle positions.
and stop-taking-actions-cloud positions.
Unless you're a shield wall phalanx vs. melee martial characters, the risk-reward is not there for it.
Phalanxes might have developed in Golarion among gay Teamwork-feat users with Shake It Off, Phalanx Fighter, Shield Wall, etc. It's still caster bait, of course, but I could see why they'd think it works at low levels.
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I do have fond memories of using this with my first Pathfinder Half-Orc Barbarian. Started out at level 4. The DM had randomly generated a +1 Mighty Cleaving Earthbreaker from a high level encounter. I managed to snag the Cleave feat by the very next level and the next couple of games were GLORIOUS.
It's very fun at low levels in tight quarters where you can control the flow of mooks more easily. And to be fair, I DID end up lucking out on random treasure, which helped immensely.
Another tactical advantage to this feat (And by extension, great cleave) is that I was able to keep enemies from swarming me, or at least influence the positions they attack from if they knew that I'd be able to wipe the floor with all of them with a single standard action. Especially useful for a barbarian with lower AC and much higher than normal damage output. It either made enemy mooks that were overly aggressive die much more quickly. OR it made them too timid and gave my allies time to rally and push into the battlefield, attacking higher value targets.
I won't argue that it's usefulness does dwindle a little bit during higher levels. Still, my first Pathfinder experience was that much more enjoyable because of it. If a feat can do that for a first time player. Then I say it's okay in my book.
Because Surprise Follow-through!
SNEAK ATTACK ON A CLEAVED TARGET!!!
and Improve Surprise Follow-Through allows sneak attack against all cleave targets
I Actually don't use cleave that much at low levels but it can be conditional.
I think something that could be nasty would be say a lizardfolk with a longspear vs casters at low levels that that then uses the bite attack adjacent and still has the longspear to threaten. This also works with a toothy half orc. As you can still at low levels bite the person if they get adjacent.
Actually when I moved from 3.5 to pathfinder nimble moves and step up were feats that made me even more interested. Cleave might be a good feat depends on character and campagin.
Actually 1st level orc warriros are a lot easier to drop with the bludegoner feat if your GM sees ferocity as only working if you are at negative hit points and not agianst nonlethal damage. Aslo this is how orcs would take other orcs as slaves. But in most campaigns this will not be an optimal choice.
Wow talk about thread necromancy. Saw the topic and wondered who was asking the same question I asked years ago without realizing it was my old thread untill I actually clicked on it.
3 Slayer 2: Power Attack, Ranger Combat Style: two-handed style: Cleave
If you have a Slayer or a Ranger or any other character with the right Combat Style, can't you just take Great Cleave directly without having regular Cleave? Does Cleave serve a purpose to that character?
and Improve Surprise Follow-Through allows sneak attack against all cleave targetsBecause Surprise Follow-through!
SNEAK ATTACK ON A CLEAVED TARGET!!!
now combine that with the dwarven feats that take away the positioning restrictions, and add in a reach weapon + enlarge + lunge and you can sneak attack ALL THE TARGETS ALL THE TIME