This is also why I think half elves make a great race for bards, EWP fauchard is just too good.
This still "cost" a feat, to take this trait you lose out on skill focus. By this thinking Humans should be added to this statement.
Prodigy only gives +2 to two skills, not six.
Harmonic Surge: Increases the DC by +1, or increases the duration by +1.
You can expand here that by taking this you can uses these 4 skill points in Knowledge skills to activate your class bonus. Thats a +16 over 4 levels
That isn't really a reasonable way of looking at it. If you take Skill Focus for a skill you would be taking anyway, you can just use the skill point you would have put there into a new knowledge skill each level. There are only 10 Knowledge skills, so it isn't exactly difficult to find a point for each one in your first few levels, even without either feat. Especially for a Bard, who can make triple use of Skill Focus through Versatile Performance, there really is no reason to bother with Human Spirit.
I haven't read the guide yet, but it's leaning towards caster bards being the only option? That's very interesting, since I don't think caster bards can work well and was going to lean away from them quite a bit when I get enough free time for my Not-A-Guide to the bard.
That isn't really a reasonable way of looking at it. If you take Skill Focus for a skill you would be taking anyway, you can just use the skill point you would have put there into a new knowledge skill each level. There are only 10 Knowledge skills, so it isn't exactly difficult to find a point for each one in your first few levels, even without either feat. Especially for a Bard, who can make triple use of Skill Focus through Versatile Performance, there really is no reason to bother with Human Spirit.
I see your point, I was just making the case that its not worthless. Notice I didnt suggest he change the color. I have a bard and it took about 4 levels till I got a skill point in each Knowledge skill. So at that rate its four skill points to Skill focus's +3. Now granted, At 10 Ranks Skill focus goes to +6. Not many of our games get much passed that; PFS games cap out at 12. With the use of Versatile Performance I think Skill focus is much better, but about half the Archtypes give up Versatile Performance.
Still, some also might want it for Flavor or RP reasons or whatever. Its not optimal use of a feat but its not wasted.
Prodigy only gives +2 to two skills, not six.
Stuart Haffenden is correct, but its still a good feat.
EDIT: Infact, now that i look at it, It seems to stack with Skill focus. Using this on your Perform skills will be effectiving giving the bonus to 6 skills. Now that I say that i can see where he got the six from. He should explain that.
Harmonic Surge: Increases the DC by +1, or increases the duration by +1
Im not sure this should not be blue. You have to be inside an artificial building and make your Knowledge(engineering) check for this to work. And the duration extending is better from Lingering Performance.
Also you have Precise Strike (teamworkfeat) as blue. I disagree again. You have to be flanking AND your teammate WITH the feat be the other flanker. Not even counting that I dont think that 1d6 Precision damage is worth a feat if you have to be flanking. Much less have a Specific teammate flanking.
Your Comments on Performance Feats left something out. Performing Combatant Will let you use these in normal combat. I based a character around this once, and while fun, is very feat intensive. So probably not the best use of your feats.
All the World’s a Stage, and You the Stage Director
It's a nice opening, but I think you a verb.
Or a comma.All the World’s a Stage, and You the Stage DirectorIt's a nice opening, but I think you a verb.
Nope, the verb is implied. Grammatical. And there's no comma needed.
I see that you mentioned the aasimar's ability to bump their inspire courage. This is a very strong point for that race (probably the biggest) if you are making a "go team" kind of bard. With the right feat (Flagbearer), a magic item (Banner of the ancient kings), and the aasimar bump you can be inspiring courage as a lvl 17 bard by 9th lvl. Add in the morale bump from the banner and your at a +6 to hit and +6 to damage.
Prodigy only gives +2 to two skills, not six.
I'm fairly sure he is suggesting you take it in 2 of your perform skills that versitile performance will then turn into 6 skills.
Uh, Sound Striker is amazingly awesome. Weird Words absolutely can hit one enemy multiple times, which can deal a tremendous amount of damage. The only major downside is that it's a performance, so it stops your Inspire Courage.the wording for Weird words is ambiguous, but getting an ok blast isn't worth losing suggestion and mass suggestion.
Oh yes, it absolutely IS worth losing suggestion & mass suggestion.
In order to suggest, you must first fascinate. Assuming success, your fascinate is disrupted by practically any offensive action, such as your allies readying themselves for the approaching battle. But let's say you've fascinated three opponents and your allies are standing around inventorying their ear wax so as to not disrupt your one-man efforts. There's usually more opponents anyway, so one of THEM can sound the alarm and break the fascinate. So you've beaten the odds with that nigh-useless trap that is fascinate, and you actually want to suggest something? Guess what? New save!
No thanks! I'll take direct damage over that dog-with-fleas any day!
And this from someone who regularly plays bards.
Prodigy only gives +2 to two skills, not six.I'm fairly sure he is suggesting you take it in 2 of your perform skills that versitile performance will then turn into 6 skills.
Right, but since perform checks are only glorified profession checks (i.e. useless) it's really only a bump to 4.
Spoiler alert: Fascinate / Suggestion isn't meant for combat. Unless you're a Celebrity bard, and then it suddenly becomes on at 8th level.
For melee bards I like to use the longspear + combat reflexes and fight with reach. To me d8 for hps is still a little low even with a shield and light armor to constantly stay in the front lines.
I agree with your use of a longspear as a Bard, but I'm a little confused by your statements here.
Why would one less average HP per level be that big of an issue? It's not like Bards have weak AC. At level 2, I have 17 AC (Chain Shirt, 14 Dex, and a Buckler so I can be the Flagbearer), and the highest AC in the party is 18. If I were an Archer or Dervish Bard instead, I'd have 18 or 20 Dex instead, so my AC would be the highest. The Fighter and Paladin have 3 more HP than I do, but I'm second place there, too.
I don't see any reason why a Bard would be unable to survive the front lines. I'm built to be pure support and control, and I can survive there if I wanted, after all. If I had made a primarily fighting Bard instead, I imagine I'd be more than fine.
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Quoted for truth. Caster bards are pretty awful.I strongly disagree. My caster helpful bard is quite useful and effective.
Seconded. I wouldn't exactly call myself a "caster bard," though, more of a "total support/control" bard. I mean, I certainly don't have the spell slots to chain cast in combat or anything, but I pretty much never make regular attacks because I have a lot of supporty (Su)s to fall back on.
Spells, Performances, Masterpieces--and when those fail, I either Aid Another or use Disrupt Undead (this is Carrion Crown and I took Two World Magic to grab it, since it deals the same damage as my shortbow would and doesn't stop me from "flagbearing"). And if even that fails to be useful, I can use my whip to trip/disarm before enemy CMDs get out of hand.
Eventually, at level 6, I'll be able to throw Weird Words in there when I need it, instead--just at the level when my other options cease to be very helpful.
I certainly don't think my bard is weak at all, but that is because I recognized the potential hurdles (not much to do early on/when I run out of useful spells/performances to start) and solved them (cross-class damage cantrip, whip, etc.). If you just run in blind and think you can take the base bard and "caster bard" it, you'll be sorry.
Another point I must make.....[Rage Face] Why you dump Dex![/rage face]
Seriously. Bard's are a light armor only class and you are suggesting a Dex of 10 for the melee bard. I just don't see that surviving. Even with a shield you are going to be toast. You have an armor class of 16 + enhancements. So end game...end game....you have an AC of 26 (Maybe 29 if you spend for a +6 belt in a stat you don't care about) and your going to stand up next to the fighter and get destroyed. Edit: Most high CR creatures have 30+ to hit, so they will only miss you on a 1.
It's much better to invest a little in Dex (say a 14) and ditch the shield for REACH (longspear for the win). Then you can stand behind the fighter / barbarian, do more damage, and be less likely to be hit / die. These points will likely have to come from Con / Int but you already have a lot of skills and you can take toughness to cover the HP difference.
Part of my issue with caster bards are that you can't chain spells. You either don't have the spell slots for it or the spells you do have won't be versatile enough to cast during each round that can actually do something.
Granted, my opinion was partially formed when only the APG was released, so perhaps UM really changed this. The sonic spells they added would help, certainly.
But even reading mplindustries' example character gives a much different picture than "caster bard", at least to me. A caster bard primarily casts spells and uses wands and such. Once you start mixing in using weapons and aid another actions and the like, you're no longer a caster bard IMO. You're just a bard ;)
Also, flagbearer has got to be one of the strangest thematic feats I can think of. Charging headfirst into a dungeon with a flag in one hand without all the patriotism and indoctrination? that makes them work in the real world in large armies.
Also, flagbearer has got to be one of the strangest thematic feats I can think of. Charging headfirst into a dungeon with a flag in one hand without all the patriotism and indoctrination? that makes them work in the real world in large armies.
It all depends on your flag sir.
Spoiler alert: Fascinate / Suggestion isn't meant for combat. Unless you're a Celebrity bard, and then it suddenly becomes on at 8th level.
Perhaps you mean is, Fascinate / Suggestion isn't meant for success?
How often do you encounter number of opponents equal to, or less than, that which you can fascinate, out of combat? And how often do they all fail their save? Just one success will wreck it for the whole bunch. And how often do your companions give their full cooperation to this tactic?
I didn't even mention how it takes at least two rounds to pull this crap off.
Let's see what I used it for last time I played a bard. This was 2 years ago, so I'm probably forgetting some.
- Got a nice discount using it successfully on a merchant.
- Convinced a few guards to go somewhere else, allowing us to break into a vampire den. (And then teleport a vampire that was swallowed whole by a T-Rex outside, but that's a different story)
- Kept the attention of a bartender so the rogue could sneak into his cellar.
- Ended a gnoll ambush in the middle of a desert when we had the lower ground. Turns out quickly figuring out who the leader of a group is useful. Eventually ended up making peace with them, teaching them how to make rain, and fast forward 200 years was directly responsible for the near eradication of humans from the island continent the gnolls inhabited. All thanks to suggestion :D
Probably more. Always having what is effectively a constantly heightened suggestion up your sleeves is actually pretty useful.
If Spellsong had been released back then, I would've probably grabbed that too. Makes it very hard for them to detect that you're even doing something.
the wording for Weird words is ambiguous, but getting an ok blast isn't worth loosing suggestion and mass suggestion.I dont have my books but the SRD does NOT have it replacing Mass suggestion.
Yeah it just says it replaces suggestion. Usually if you don't get the lower level ability, you can't get the better one, but the wording is broad enough that they could be completely decoupled.
- Got a nice discount using it successfully on a merchant.
- Convinced a few guards to go somewhere else, allowing us to break into a vampire den. (And then teleport a vampire that was swallowed whole by a T-Rex outside, but that's a different story)
- Kept the attention of a bartender so the rogue could sneak into his cellar.
- Ended a gnoll ambush in the middle of a desert when we had the lower ground. Turns out quickly figuring out who the leader of a group is useful. Eventually ended up making peace with them, teaching them how to make rain, and fast forward 200 years was directly responsible for the near eradication of humans from the island continent the gnolls inhabited. All thanks to suggestion :D
Probably more. Always having what is effectively a constantly heightened suggestion up your sleeves is actually pretty useful.
If Spellsong had been released back then, I would've probably grabbed that too. Makes it very hard for them to detect that you're even doing something.
Merchants? Use Diplomacy.
Convince guards? Use Cash, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate or an illusion.Bartender? Same.
Gnoll ambush? I'm guessing poor DM adjudication here. Just because initiative hasn't been rolled doesn't mean fascinate is viable.
Nice tries. Fascinate is still a dog with fleas.
Right, but since perform checks are only glorified profession checks (i.e. useless) it's really only a bump to 4.Prodigy only gives +2 to two skills, not six.I'm fairly sure he is suggesting you take it in 2 of your perform skills that versitile performance will then turn into 6 skills.
I clarified that the 6 is for versatile perform.
Merchants? Use Diplomacy.
Convince guards? Use Cash, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate or an illusion.
Bartender? Same.
Gnoll ambush? I'm guessing poor DM adjudication here. Just because initiative hasn't been rolled doesn't mean fascinate is viable.Nice tries. Fascinate is still a dog with fleas.
I just want to point out that Sound Strikers do not lose Fascinate (how could they if still kept Mass Suggestion?).
So, from that list, distracting the bartender could still work (but yeah, also spells like Charm person, Illusions, or mundane social skills). Likewise, fascinating the gnolls still prevents the fight and lets someone attempt diplomacy.
And personally, as a Dirge Bard, I'd rather have Suggestion as a spell anyway, because Secrets of the Grave lets me use mind-affecting spells on undead, but doesn't help my music.
- Got a nice discount using it successfully on a merchant.
- Convinced a few guards to go somewhere else, allowing us to break into a vampire den. (And then teleport a vampire that was swallowed whole by a T-Rex outside, but that's a different story)
- Kept the attention of a bartender so the rogue could sneak into his cellar.
- Ended a gnoll ambush in the middle of a desert when we had the lower ground. Turns out quickly figuring out who the leader of a group is useful. Eventually ended up making peace with them, teaching them how to make rain, and fast forward 200 years was directly responsible for the near eradication of humans from the island continent the gnolls inhabited. All thanks to suggestion :D
Probably more. Always having what is effectively a constantly heightened suggestion up your sleeves is actually pretty useful.
If Spellsong had been released back then, I would've probably grabbed that too. Makes it very hard for them to detect that you're even doing something.
Merchants? Use Diplomacy.
Convince guards? Use Cash, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate or an illusion.
Bartender? Same.
Gnoll ambush? I'm guessing poor DM adjudication here. Just because initiative hasn't been rolled doesn't mean fascinate is viable.Nice tries. Fascinate is still a dog with fleas.
The fact that you cannot come up with any uses of it does not mean it's useless. The fact that there may be other methods to achieve the same result does not mean it's useless.
Having magical means of getting people to do what you want is wonderful. Even if you're Friendly with the merchant doesn't mean he'll give you a huge discount. But that's not the case when magic is in the mix. It's why having magic + skills will trump skills any day of the week, especially for an ability with such a low resource cost.Fascinate and suggestion have their uses and someone skilled at playing a bard will know when it's best to use them. They aren't indispensable, but just ignoring them is only shooting yourself in the foot.
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But even reading mplindustries' example character gives a much different picture than "caster bard", at least to me. A caster bard primarily casts spells and uses wands and such. Once you start mixing in using weapons and aid another actions and the like, you're no longer a caster bard IMO. You're just a bard ;)
Call it what you want, but my 1/2 ling helpful bard is quite effective, at least at the relatively low levels he has been played at so far.
He has a Cha of 20, Str as a dump stat and only fair Dex (16). He has weapon finesse so that he can use his whip to trip people from a distance. He has enough spells so that he can cast spells when they'll be particularly useful (a well placed and timed grease has saved our ass on more than one occassion).
He has enough spells that he has a reasonable (not great, but reasonable) selection of things he can do. And with his Charisma the save DCs vs his spells are reasonably high without investing in spell focus
Most importantly, when casting spells isn't practical (wrong spells, he has run out) he can still contribute by helping others. Providing a +6 to hit for the fighter is darn useful (+2 flank, +4 helpful 1/2 ling).
If I made him today I could make him significantly more powerful by making him an Aasimar (PFS character so that wasn't an option when he was created).
You may want to mention that the human alternate racial trait "focused study" trades out the bonus feat for three skill focus feats. That can be a significant boon to those archetypes that retain versatile performance.
You may want to mention that the human alternate racial trait "focused study" trades out the bonus feat for three skill focus feats. That can be a significant boon to those archetypes that retain versatile performance.
That would be awesome choice if you had planned on taking a skill focus feat anyway. Great choice for a skill focused bard.
With the right versatile performance and ifyou chose skill focus:Perform 3 times that'll be like 9 skill focus feats.You may want to mention that the human alternate racial trait "focused study" trades out the bonus feat for three skill focus feats. That can be a significant boon to those archetypes that retain versatile performance.That would be awesome choice if you had planned on taking a skill focus feat anyway. Great choice for a skill focused bard.
Bingo +1
Oh good, now I don't have to do this.
Hmm... Now I'm wondering if I should bother finishing my spell guide... My Dark Souls addiction is kind of stealing away my free time anyway.
Anyway, Kudos on the guide!
I'm sure I have a very different opinion than you on some things, but that's how it is.
The fact that you cannot come up with any uses of it does not mean it's useless. The fact that there may be other methods to achieve the same result does not mean it's useless.
I am suddenly reminded of the hundreds of monk conversations where I say exactly this to you.
You mention TWF, but bards, by and large, should not TWF. .....The harder problem is that two handed weapons just do more damage...
Agreed. The real issue is that Bards do not have the feats to make two-weapon fighting compete with Two-handed. My recommendation for melee is 1) two-handed with some Dex to make up the AC or 2) Sword and board with the understanding that you will not be competitive with damage.
You mention TWF, but bards, by and large, should not TWF.
The first problem is hands. Any spell with a somatic or material component needs a free hand. That rules out any weapon configuration where you cannot regrip. Light shields are in. Two handed weapons are in. Everything else is out. This means that if you want to TWF other than shield bash or use a heavy shield you're pretty much looking at Arcane Duelist. Or a half elf with exotic proficiency in a double weapon with better than 1d6 x2 stats.
The harder problem is that two handed weapons just do more damage. Your accuracy/damage ratio for TWF doesn't beat two handed power attack unless you are getting better than double performance benefits and arcane strike. That requires either a non-competence damage boosting performance and another bard or at least a level 4 spell.
If you're already planning to use a shield for AC TWF will keep your damage output from being absolutely pitiful, but you don't need to rely on just AC. You have the miss chance buffs on your list. Judging by the bestiary table you shouldn't drop into the can't be missed AC levels as long as you keep three AC items going up by +1 per 4 levels each and wear the best light armor in the CRB (elven chain) The shield certainly will help, but you're looking at a lot of stat and feat investment to TWF with shield bash and a pretty pitiful damage output without. Two handed is two feats and done.
I mention TWF, but it's rated as orange (substandard choice). The free hand issue is easily fixed via weapon cord (swift to regrab).
First off thanks for creating this guide! It's really nice to see the Bard get some more love on these boards.
That said I noticed a potential error under the Sandman section of the Archetypes page. You recommend the Improved Feint feat for this build but the feint maneuver specifically calls out that it's for melee attacks on page 201 of the core book. If that's the case Sneakspell would only activate if your spellcasting involves an attack roll, wouldn't it?
I second that the Archaeologist Bard gets to disarm magic traps at 6th level, as a part of Clever Explorer. It basically makes that archetype a Rogue who is trading sneak attack for spells.
I second that the Archaeologist Bard gets to disarm magic traps at 6th level, as a part of Clever Explorer. It basically makes that archetype a Rogue who is trading sneak attack for spells.
Thanks, Obviously I missed that and the last guy who commented didn't respond when I asked where it said that. I will change it right now.
First off thanks for creating this guide! It's really nice to see the Bard get some more love on these boards.
That said I noticed a potential error under the Sandman section of the Archetypes page. You recommend the Improved Feint feat for this build but the feint maneuver specifically calls out that it's for melee attacks on page 201 of the core book. If that's the case Sneakspell would only activate if your spellcasting involves an attack roll, wouldn't it?
Good catch. Feint is for melee attacks only. Drops sneakspell to orange, but doesn't effect the overall rating for Sandman.
Finished the Spells section. The link is on the front page of the guide, but can be found HERE. As always, constructive criticism is appreciated.
I'm going through the spells now and will be doing so more later. A few comments on level 0s:
There's absolutely no reason you have to glow with the Light spell. In fact, that's not even possible, as the range is object touched.
When my bard travels somewhere dark, I cast Light on a feather or marble or something light and use Prestidigitation to hold it out 10' in front of me, and Mage Hand it around corners and stuff.
I've also cast on arrows/sling stones pretty frequently and shot them up ahead to see what's further down the tunnel.
You can also put it on an ally's stuff--your tank, for example--if you must. I think Light is extremely useful, way more so than Dancing Lights.
Message is amazing--you can communicate with your entire party in near silence. It's great.
Oh, and Read Magic is not needed for reading scrolls, by the way--you can use Spellcraft to decipher one, too. I don't have it, and have had no issue with scrolls.