Give fire to a man, and he will be warm for a day. Set him on fire, and he will be warm for life.

[Xeriar]

Are you down?

Worried that when the armies of 'righteousness' gather, that there will be none to spit into their smug pretend face, matching them soldier for soldier?

Sure, we have a few organizations that are 'lawful neutral', but so far only a perfectly LEGitamate BREAdmaKING business is willing to do what is necessary to truly make the world a better place.

It's a big place, the world, full of simple people who think that it is all black and white.

They think such a thing as 'innocence' can exist.

They think that, when it comes to making the hard decisions necessary for rulership, that they are prepared.

They never expect to have to choose between what is best for those they claim to love, and what is best for their nation.

----

I have a name picked out - Anem Vora - but I am just gauging interest for now.

If you are familiar with the Scorpion Clan in Legend of the Five Rings, and how they are supposed to behave - then you have a pretty good idea of what I am looking for.

For those not familiar, the Scorpion prize loyalty above all else, and have no shame in doing what it takes to fulfill their goals. The Clan of Secrets and of Lies, they are also the most honest. They wear their masks publicly, for all to see, and if you have a problem, they are very happy to help.

They of course expect returns on such favors. They make valuable friends.

----

As for who I am, I run two of the most active play-by-post forums in the world. The biggest one is often just called 'E' and though I can't link it here, if you put 'roleplaying forum' into Google it shows in second place.

No, this won't be an 'adult' organization. But any members I bring to the table will be adults, experienced roleplayers and good writers. Regardless, I'm not in this alone, and I am very familiar with running large virtual communities.

This would be more than just a chartered company - it would be an actual attempt at creating a player nation. Wherein we play the villains. The Evil Empire complete with spies, assassins, and dreams of world conquest. All for the best interest of its future subjects, of course.

If there is interest, I will start fleshing out the structure more.

[Dumorz]

*Clap Clap Clap Clap*

Thank you very much for this, if it happens, this will be the second time I encounter a "evil" player guild (first was in Matrix online) and Im looking up to see you guys develop.

[Xeriar]

I'm sure the Goons and groups like Ryan describes will show up, but this is meant to be a more 'open' order.

The sort of thing that new players can get involved with, partaking in dastardly deeds without feeling like they are just ruining people's fun. Sometimes we'll even provide a helping hand.

Straight from the heart.

[Elth]

the goons and others like them generally dont have a fun "in character" theme such as Breadmaking does. I'm looking forward to seeing the Totally Legitimate Breadmaking Business in the River Kingdoms and maybe PAulie'S Silent HAirdreSSINg Salon, where the Hairdressers are all mute ;).

[Xeriar]

And Samantha's PastrIES?

Or Sasha's Magnificent UnderGround Games and LINGerie?

Yes, these upstanding businesses need a place they can all call home.

[Andius]

Who says you have to be evil to like spies and smugglers??? If you expect everyone fighting for good to play by the rules then you are in for a nasty surprise.

Anyway welcome to PFO. I won't wish you well in your endeavors but I look forward to crossing swords.

[Xeriar]

Andius wrote:

Who says you have to be evil to like spies and smugglers??? If you expect everyone fighting for good to play by the rules then you are in for a nasty surprise.

Why would we bar any law-abiding citizen from our services? That would be rude. : (

Quote:

Anyway welcome to PFO. I won't wish you well in your endeavors but I look forward to crossing swords.

Game won't be out for at least a year and already we have threats of violence.

Such oppression we suffer. : (

[Andius]

Xeriar wrote:

Andius wrote:

Who says you have to be evil to like spies and smugglers??? If you expect everyone fighting for good to play by the rules then you are in for a nasty surprise.

Why would we bar any law-abiding citizen from our services? That would be rude. : (

A good question. Law and chaos are such trivial matters compared to good vs. evil. The real question is why do you think we would bar them from OUR service?

[Xeriar]

I'm getting this image of a guy standing around in the settlement shouting at every newbie or suspected newbie he can see. "HAY GOOD PEOPLE! WE HAVE SPIES TOO! AND SMUGGLING! AND OTHER SERVICES, COME CHECK US OUT! THESE PEOPLE ARE -EVIL-!"

We could call him George.

And we could ask him "But do you have a George?"

Will you have a George?

[Nihimon]

Poor George, so mistreated and misunderstood. Really, you should just hug him and squeeze him.

[Elth]

Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are all relative and just as trivial from a neutral standpoint. I support both good and evil organizations in this game because without one, the other is meaningless. An organization like Tony's could be a key to keeping the balance from tipping too far into good or evil by helping both sides, breadmaking doesn't discriminate amirite?

[Onishi]

Elth wrote:

Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are all relative and just as trivial from a neutral standpoint. I support both good and evil organizations in this game because without one, the other is meaningless. An organization like Tony's could be a key to keeping the balance from tipping too far into good or evil by helping both sides, breadmaking doesn't discriminate amirite?

From the viewpoints I've seen on occasion, the breadmaking has more of a bias towards good groups, or at least a fear of less than good groups leaning towards harming the community. I would imagine more neutrality to be seen in some of the pure money for power groups like The first file, or pocket ace, that concern themselves far less on the overall ideals of the world.

[Xeriar]

I think the priority list for most major groups is going to be

1) Get rid of the griefers
2) Maintain balance of power
3) Reinforce own power

'Having fun' will probably vary between first, fourth, and 'one of these three IS my fun!'.

I wouldn't be surprised if an effective game-wide alliance forms for the first. But what constitutes griefing is going to be in the eye of the beholder. Not all organizations are going to agree.

Still, may put some hard thought into the concept of 'legitimate' cassus belli. Would be neat if the game had mechanisms for such.

[Elth]

Onishi wrote:

Elth wrote:

Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are all relative and just as trivial from a neutral standpoint. I support both good and evil organizations in this game because without one, the other is meaningless. An organization like Tony's could be a key to keeping the balance from tipping too far into good or evil by helping both sides, breadmaking doesn't discriminate amirite?

From the viewpoints I've seen on occasion, the breadmaking has more of a bias towards good groups, or at least a fear of less than good groups leaning towards harming the community. I would imagine more neutrality to be seen in some of the pure money for power groups like The first file, or pocket ace, that concern themselves far less on the overall ideals of the world.

As Xeriar has pointed out his first priority is getting rid of griefers.

While we all like to think griefers are all evil little kids or adult mouth-breathers in mom's basement, I have witnessed just as much griefing activity from the white-knight community as well.

I can really only go from my experience in Age of Conan when looking at FFA gaming. I played DFO but joined the game too late and didn't last long with their latency. Even though AoC was a themepark game it was amazing when looking into the fishbowl to see the player made factions, griefers, gankers, roleplayers, solo-pvers and white-knights mixed together. Some of the most skilled PvPers in that game were roleplayers and probably more ruthless when it came to retribution griefing.

[Xeriar]

Elth wrote:

As Xeriar has pointed out his first priority is getting rid of griefers.

Well, insofar as I'd be happy to join alliances that took care of nations/settlements/settlements that failed to revoke the charter of griefers.

I'd probably have some clear lines as to what qualifies, though.

Quote:

While we all like to think griefers are all evil little kids or adult mouth-breathers in mom's basement, I have witnessed just as much griefing activity from the white-knight community as well.

White knights very often are after a prize. Rather than doing good for the sake of good, they're out to try and impress someone with their antics, on the one in a million chance they'll get some(thing) in return.

But yeah, it's bad enough to see Chaotic Neutral types going 'I was just playing my alignment!', we're going to see 'But I'm Lawful Good! Even my conduct says so!'

Because people will be able to stay within the bounds of conduct while managing to be epic jerks.

If this nation forms, though, individuals will probably get left for individual chartered companies to handle, individually.

Quote:

I can really only go from my experience in Age of Conan when looking at FFA gaming. I played DFO but joined the game too late and didn't last long with their latency. Even though AoC was a themepark game it was amazing when looking into the fishbowl to see the player made factions, griefers, gankers, roleplayers, solo-pvers and white-knights mixed together. Some of the most skilled PvPers in that game were roleplayers and probably more ruthless when it came to retribution griefing.

I think anyone who actually has their eyes set on running a nation with a chance at achieving that goal is going to be a bit ruthless. Not necessarily evil, but I don't think any of the LN organizations are going to spare someone's watchtower in territory they otherwise dominate just because 'someone else put it up first'.

Which is actually what I'm afraid the initial bout of griefing will be - people putting up watchtowers and forts freaking everywhere, crying foul/victim, enjoying the shift of their targets to evil alignment, or both.

Screw that, I'll take the alignment hit. And do it for others, too, for a price. If our George is having problems with similar people, well, happy to help.

GW might have an initial grace period here, or something (i.e. declare that making/owning/defending a building on a hex you don't have a settlement on is not an innocent act), but they can still play victim, and addressing that annoyance in game might be plenty fun.

[Elth]

Xeriar wrote:

Which is actually what I'm afraid the initial bout of griefing will be - people putting up watchtowers and forts freaking everywhere, crying foul/victim, enjoying the shift of their targets to evil alignment, or both.

In territorial disputes like your tower example I'm predicting that some people will cry grief

regardless. I don't think there should be alignment hits in that case, just declare war
on the group that is offending your land with their presence. There is no good or evil in territory until innocent civilians are butchered in the process, even then there may be an acceptable level of "collateral".

[Xeriar]

In one of the blogs Ryan said that war had to be a mutual event.

I'm hoping that areas without settlements might have laxer rules regarding that, though.