Deeper Darkness at Will and PCs with Daylight

[nosig]

Jiggy wrote:

No one said the elf could see bright light 120ft away. He can't. He still sees dim light past 60ft, it just doesn't hinder him the same way it does a human.

wait... the elf has low light.

low light says: "....Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters."

Daylight says: "You touch an object when you cast this spell, causing the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius."

are you saying the elf does NOT double the 60-foot radius? Why not?

[Jiggy]

nosig wrote:

wait... the elf has low light.

low light says: "....Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters."

Whoa... Where'd you find that? I haven't seen that line before.

[nosig]

Have I been doing low-light vision wrong? I've always just doubled the radius for elves (and gnomes etc.) for light sources. Torch sheds 20' and another 20' of dim, or 40' of light and another 40' of dim for an elf. At least that's the way I've done it till now... am I doing it wrong?

[nosig]

Jiggy wrote:

nosig wrote:

wait... the elf has low light.

low light says: "....Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters."

Whoa... Where'd you find that? I haven't seen that line before.

my post above today says:

CRB pg 173)
"Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and
half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given
radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal
light, and dim light for such characters."

so the Core Rule Book, Page 173, the section on light. (Chapter 7 I think).

[Jiggy]

Shazam.

Alright, so a human and an elf are handcuffed together, and daylight is active on the handcuffs. The human sees bright light to 60ft and dim to 120ft. The elf sees bright light to 120ft and dim to 240ft.

Now, as far as interaction with deeper darkness goes, the universe would implode if the spell had two different areas due to the elf and human standing in the same area and looking in the same direction. So we have to go with the basic 60/120 regardless of who's looking.

Now, as for the issue of how close DD has to get to be "overlapping"... Further down in the Vision and Light section, I see this line:

"Areas of bright light include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of a daylight spell."

So the Vision and Light section seems to define "the area of a daylight spell" as being the part with bright light. So I think we have to consider the "spell area" to be 60ft, and the following 60ft (where it increases light by one step) to be outside the area. So only the part of DD that overlaps with the central 60ft radius of daylight negates/gets negated.

Or such is my interpretation.

[Sniggevert]

Jiggy wrote:

Alright, so a human and an elf are handcuffed together, and daylight is active on the handcuffs. The human sees bright light to 60ft and dim to 120ft. The elf sees bright light to 120ft and dim to 240ft.

Doesn't it step down from bright light to normal light and then dim light in terms of lighting though? Shouldn't there be an extra 60' or 120' radius in there?

[nosig]

wow jiggy. you lost me.
going to have to read this for a while and let it sink in....

[Jiggy]

Sniggevert wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Alright, so a human and an elf are handcuffed together, and daylight is active on the handcuffs. The human sees bright light to 60ft and dim to 120ft. The elf sees bright light to 120ft and dim to 240ft.

Doesn't it step down from bright light to normal light and then dim light in terms of lighting though? Shouldn't there be an extra 60' or 120' radius in there?

Answer to your question's in the spell description.

[Jiggy]

nosig wrote:

wow jiggy. you lost me.

going to have to read this for a while and let it sink in....

More concise version:

• First 60ft is the radius of daylight. Everyone sees bright light here. This is the area where, if it overlaps with deeper darkness, causes mutual negation and returns to the "otherwise prevailing light" level.
• Next 60ft (120ft total) is outside the spell radius, and is therefore affected by deeper darkness as normal - none of that "negated in the overlapping areas" stuff. If not affected by a darkness effect, this area's light level is increased by one step. The elf sees bright light here regardless of the adjusted light level.
• Further out, it's whatever the light level was without the spell. However, if the above section (60-120) was dim light or better, the elf sees an additional 120ft (240ft total).

[Rogue Eidolon]

Jiggy wrote:

nosig wrote:

wow jiggy. you lost me.

going to have to read this for a while and let it sink in....

More concise version:

• First 60ft is the radius of daylight. Everyone sees bright light here. This is the area where, if it overlaps with deeper darkness, causes mutual negation and returns to the "otherwise prevailing light" level.
• Next 60ft (120ft total) is outside the spell radius, and is therefore affected by deeper darkness as normal - none of that "negated in the overlapping areas" stuff. If not affected by a darkness effect, this area's light level is increased by one step. The elf sees bright light here regardless of the adjusted light level.
• Further out, it's whatever the light level was without the spell. However, if the above section (60-120) was dim light or better, the elf sees an additional 120ft (240ft total).

I'm in full agreement with Jiggy, once again.

[nosig]

so...

1)daylight has a radius of 60 feet.

2) the line "Double the effective radius of bright light, normal
light, and dim light for such characters." does not refer to the radius of the spell.

did I get those two correct?

[Jiggy]

Yep.

[nosig]

I am not sure if I agree. I'll need to sleep on it I think. It's the #1 that I am having trouble with... the "daylight has a radius of 60 feet." this is the effective radius of the spell - for creatures without low-light vision. Like a light has an effective radius of 20' and a sunrod has an effective radius of 30'. this is the radius of the effect... for creatures without lowlight vision.

(IMHO) Daylight does not create light in the area of it's radius - it shines into that area from an object (the target of the spell) and can be blocked. Like any other light source. Lowlight vision will increase this radius of light.

[Ninjaiguana]

nosig wrote:

I am not sure if I agree. I'll need to sleep on it I think. It's the #1 that I am having trouble with... the "daylight has a radius of 60 feet." this is the effective radius of the spell - for creatures without low-light vision. Like a light has an effective radius of 20' and a sunrod has an effective radius of 30'. this is the radius of the effect... for creatures without lowlight vision.

(IMHO) Daylight does not create light in the area of it's radius - it shines into that area from an object (the target of the spell) and can be blocked. Like any other light source. Lowlight vision will increase this radius of light.

Low-light vision won't increase the radius at which deeper darkness is negated, though. That's an effect caused by overlapping spells, and has nothing to do with the vision of people caught in the overlapping spells.

So an elf sees 60 ft like everybody else - more than 60 ft, it's into the deeper darkness. This is outside the negation area, so it doesn't matter if he'd normally see 120 ft of bright light - he sees 60 ft, then hits a magical effect that worsens lighting conditions. Then you consultt the table to see what the light level has been reduced to at that >60ft. range, and act accordingly (doubling distance seen if dim, no ability to see more than 60 ft if dark or worse.)

[TetsujinOni]

Ninja, that's not entirely clear from reading the PRD text of daylight without using the following enhanced light level chart:

It *appears* that it creates a 60' spread of supernaturally bright light... making the lighting hierarchy actually this:

sunlight - only provides "normally" bright but has special effects - parallel with next entry
supernaturally bright - daylight effect, not sure what else
bright illumination
normal illumination
dim illumination
dark
supernaturally dark - deeper darkness, other effects.

Normal darkvision works down into 'dark'. There are abilities that work down into supernaturally dark.

With this interpretation, it becomes clear what the spell interaction areas are without worrying about the perceiving characters.

[nosig]

ok, we take Jiggy's two PCs that are handcuffed (daylight on the handcuffs) together and stand them in the center of a cavern 600 feet across. Now let me see if I understand this...
.
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light.
the Elf can see 120' with bright light, and 120 more (240 total) of dim light.

Into the walks a Dark Creeper with a deeper darkness on a torch, and he walks past the pair and out the other side of the cavern.

what do the three of them see when the DC is at:

a) 300'
b) 270'
c) 240'
d) 210'
e) 180'
f) 150'
g) 120'
h) 90'
i) 60'
j) 30'
k) 0'
l) -30' and the reverse of the above.

IMHO:

a) 300' -
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light.
the Elf can see 120' with bright light, and 120 more (240 total) of dim light.

b) 270'
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light.
the Elf can see 120' with bright light, and 120 more (240 total) of dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off a 30' of the 60' radius from the Dark Torch. (interceting circles)

c) 240'
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light.
the Elf can see 120' with bright light, and 120 more (240 total) of dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off everything within 60' radius from the Dark Torch.

d) 210'
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light.
the Elf can see 120' with bright light, and 120 more (240 total) of dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off everything within 60' radius from the Dark Torch. (Interrestingly enough, there begins to be an area PAST the DC which is within 240 of the elf, but not within 60 of the DC... what's the light level there, for the elf?)

e) 180'
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light.
the Elf can see 120' with bright light, and 120 more (240 total) of dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off everything within 60' radius from the Dark Torch. (the area PAST the DC which is within 240 of the elf, but not within 60 of the DC is much larger, on a mapboard the DM can now see the the entire circle of the DD inside the area of Dim light that the elf can see. Plainly a small circle inside a larger one.)

f) 150'
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off a 30' of the 60' radius from the Dark Torch. (interceting circles)
.
the Elf can see 120' with bright light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off a 30' of the 60' radius from the Dark Torch. (interceting circles again), and then 120 more (240 total) of dim light. (does the light shine THRU the area of the darkness to shine on things PAST, or outside the area? in other words does the Darkness cast a shadow? I would say it does shine thru - darkness does not cast a shadow - IMHO).

g) 120'
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off everything within 60' radius from the Dark Torch.
the Elf can see 120' with bright light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off everything within 60' radius from the Dark Torch., and 120 more (240 total) of dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off everything within 60' radius from the Dark Torch.

h) 90'
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off everything within 60' radius from the Dark Torch.
the Elf can see (as above).

i) 60'
the Human can see 60' with bright light, and 60 more dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off everything within 60' radius from the Dark Torch. (this is where the DD has finally reached the handcuffed couple).
the Elf can see 120' with bright light, and 120 more (240 total) of dim light in all directions except north, where the DD cuts off everything within 60' radius from the Dark Torch. the trailing end of the DD is now at the edge of the bright light for the elf.
(Interestingly enough, this is where the edge of the DD will cover the source of the Daylight... and maybe prevent it from radiating at all.)

j) 30' - ah... no light? the source is covered by the area of the DD.

k) 0' - source is covered by the area of the DD. No light shines out.

l) -30' is the reverse of the above.