Is there any feat or trait (or anything else) that would allow you to be able to take two archetypes at once that would normally not be able to take together (in this case master of many styles and monk of the four winds)?
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Is there any feat or trait (or anything else) that would allow you to be able to take two archetypes at once that would normally not be able to take together (in this case master of many styles and monk of the four winds)?
There is a back door entrance into the elemental fist of the monk of the four winds via the Dragon Ferocity feat on page 98 of Ultimate Combat. You can take it as your second feat as a master of many styles after taking Dragon Style itself and then you can take Elemental Fist and it's damage will increase with levels at the same rate as Monk of the four winds. If you wanted the Monk of the Four winds for anything else then I cannot help you out. Hope the information helped.
The build i was making was Master of Many Styles, Martial Artist. That takes Dragon Style at lv 1, Dragon Ferocity at lv 2, and Elemental Fist at lv 3. Then I was going to take Efreeti style upon lv up to max out my fire damage potential.
Unarmed fighter can get an elemental style after being a four winds monk, but you'll be waiting a long time for a second or final elemental style.
I was actually already using the dragon style entrance to the more d6 damage for elemental fist from monk of the four winds. The ability I REALLY want from monk of the four winds (besides the increase in damage) is the 12th lvl ability Slow Time so that I can do multiple elemental style attacks in a round from the third feat in the elemental style trees (Djinni Spin, Efreeti Touch, etc.). I am doing the first 2 dragon style feats and then all 4 elemental style feats all the way thru for a kinda of Avatar last airbender type character.
The problem is what you want the ability.city to cherry pick which archetype abilities you get would be too strong.
I was hoping that there was a feat or trait that would allow me to trade out like one of the abilities for another or something. The only reason I can't take both is because they both replace Perfect Self at 20th lvl.
The problem is what you want the ability.city to cherry pick which archetype abilities you get would be too strong.
I sometimes wonder how strong this would really be
Ask your GM if you can create a custom archetype. I've done this once with a Sohei for a campaign where mounts were almost non-existant. We stripped out all the mount-related stuff and pasted in bits from other archetypes (some from Weapons Adept and one from Martial Artist, IIRC).
The other route would be to make something like "Crossblooded" that Sorcerers have.
Ask nicely to your DM !
When the only thing limiting you is a common replacement to the 20th level ability, we are surely not talking about intended game balance anymore. I believe it is the only example in the rules of such occurence between two archetypes.
There are a few examples of such, and I strongly suspect most 20th level ability replacements are in place specifically to prevent certain archetypes from stacking.
So beware when modding things which work as is, just not how you like.
There are a few examples of such, and I strongly suspect most 20th level ability replacements are in place specifically to prevent certain archetypes from stacking.
So beware when modding things which work as is, just not how you like.
I pretty seriously doubt this, actually. It implies a level of coordination and balance way beyond what we normally see. This is not to denigrate Paizo, mind you. Just that with multiple freelancers and books and constant changes right up until publication, it would be very surprising if incompatibilities were specifically included as a subtle inter-archetype balancing trick and not just an artifact of the archetypes happening to switch the same toggles. Beyond that, I can't really think of any combinations that both would be particularly powerful AND are only incompatible in the capstone.
Do you have any examples where this might be the case?
There are a few examples of such, and I strongly suspect most 20th level ability replacements are in place specifically to prevent certain archetypes from stacking.
So beware when modding things which work as is, just not how you like.
I pretty seriously doubt this, actually. It implies a level of coordination and balance way beyond what we normally see. This is not to denigrate Paizo, mind you. Just that with multiple freelancers and books and constant changes right up until publication, it would be very surprising if incompatibilities were specifically included as a subtling inter-archetype balancing trick and not just an artifact of the archetypes happening to switch the same toggles. Beyond that, I can't really think of any combinations that both would be particularly powerful AND are only incompatible in the capstone.
Do you have any examples where this might be the case?
Your point, in general is good and I think is generally probably true.
The one example I can point to atm though, where I feel like I'm on to something, is master of many styles. It's capstone feels really tacked on (it doesn't do anything but mimic half of a feat you either have or decided you didn't need; a fifth style on top of four others seems... Unlikely?), and it serves next to no function other than to prevent the archetype from stacking with other monk archetypes.
The degree to which I really want it combine with them, I consider a warning sign it probably shouldn't :)
But I'll admit the possibility the designer though the capstone was just really cool exists. Do we know who wrote it?
The degree to which I really want it combine with them, I consider a warning sign it probably shouldn't :)
Well, we can look at what it is actually preventing the class from combining with. From a look at the srd, we have Martial Artist, Monk of the Four Winds, Monk of the Healing Hand, and Weapon Adept.
Monk of the Healing Hand and Weapon Adept are pretty much right out. They don't seem to have anything that would become particularly strong when combined with styles. Martial Artist is a possibility, but not in terms of actual Monk power. Mostly, it would let everyone, regardless of alignment, take a two level dip to get a whole style. However, given how rare alignment restrictions are, this would pretty much just exclude Monk/Barbarian. Don't think that would be worth the effort, personally.
Monk of the Four Winds would be the strongest case, as it prevents people from getting early access to the Elemental Styles. However, for this to be necessary for balance, the Elemental Styles would have to be really good, which I just don't see. Efreeti and Shaitan style do let you deal 1d6 elemental damage on a miss, which is nice at low levels. However, you will only be doing it 2/day, and the automatic damage isn't any better than a magic missile. The second style feats add elemental resistance (less valuable at low levels) and a rider that doesn't matter ever (deafened, on fire), doesn't matter much at low level (staggered), or can be easily replicated (Marid style, meet net). Finally you get the area of effect abilities that deal damage as a unarmed strike + elemental along with the (fairly weak) riders. This damage is comparable to a burning hands and really eats into your few Elemental Fists. Besides, you can get similar stuff out of Dragon Style (from extra damage to the unarmed AoE). Overall, nothing to really worry about in my opinion.
TL;DR: Go forth and houserule this with confidence. Even if intended as a balancing measure, the MoMS capstone isn't stopping anything particularly abusive. Someone probably just thought the capstone should be more MoMSy and went with it.
There is NO way my DM would allow me to houserule something beneficial. Our group is pretty strict on third party rules and homebrewed feats and classes. I was hoping I would be able to do the whole 3 of the elemental style feat attacks in one round with the Slow time ability.
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There is NO way my DM would allow me to houserule something beneficial. Our group is pretty strict on third party rules and homebrewed feats and classes. I was hoping I would be able to do the whole 3 of the elemental style feat attacks in one round with the Slow time ability.
Honestly, just because it is "beneficial" does not mean it is "overpowered".
You decide to deal additional elemental damage with your standard actions, something most creature of your level will have resistance or immunity to.Instead, you may very well use Vital Strike + Devastating Strike with Dragon Style three times per round (all the while wearing Monk's robe) to deal 3x(2x2d8+2)=12d8+6, or 3x(2x3d8)=18d8+6 base damage if enlarged + 3x(1,5 times Str modifier). It goes to 18d8+12 or 27d8+12 base damage when enlarged at level 14 with the IVS qinggong power.
And even then, it would cost 6 or 7 Ki points to pull off. Fun part is that it's legal.
What irks me is that while you can make a Maneuver Master that is also a Weapons Adept, you can't make a Master of Many Styles that is also a Weapons Adept. Why would that be ?