Hey all.
So my Magus is about to buy a headband of int +2
I am planning on having the skill be linguistics.
As I gain ranks equal to my HD I assume I also gain all the languages?
I looked for a standard PFRPG ruling, but there does not seem to be one.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Linguistics Skill: "Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language."
Seems pretty clear to me.
thats what i assumed as well, so I just pick whatever languages I want?
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They would have to be hardwired into the band by the creator, so it would have to be the languages he knew.thats what i assumed as well, so I just pick whatever languages I want?
But because you get to pick which skill is in any headband of intellect you purchase, you would also get to pick whichever languages the creator knew as well.
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I am planning on having the skill be linguistics.What?
In case you're asking the question I think you're asking...
But since that could easily be abused with an INT headband (take it off, put it back on for different skill ranks), the item description for INT headbands says they're keyed to one skill and a given headband will only ever put those ranks into that one skill (overlapping any "real" ranks in that skill, rather than stacking).
Since PFS character have access to the best markets in the world, they can buy INT headbands keyed to any one skill they like. Thefurmonger chose Linguistics.
Feel free to ignore that spoiler if I misinterpreted your question.
Of the available selection, which isn't spelled out in PFS.
And this is part of why I posted this question in the PFS area.
But like 99% of the PFS questions that get posted, it was moved here where we get totally non-PFS anwsers.
Awesome.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And the languages need to be hard-coded, so that you can't give me your headband of intellect +2 (linguistics) and let me decide which languages I suddenly understand/speak.
(And a reminder that the belt of dwarvenkind grants its wearer the ability to speak and understand Dwarf. In case you wanted your pet monkey to speak Dwarf.)
If a 10th level crafter makes a headband with his 10 ranks of Know(planes), does a 15th level mage who puts it only still only get 10 ranks of Know(planes) out of it?
No, he gets a number of skill ranks in that skill equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. The creator doesn't need to have those ranks, that's just the skill he chose when he created the Headband of Vast Intelligence.
The problem is that whenever you put a rank into Linguistics you learn to speak and read a new language. If those languages are not set when the headband is created, then people can simply remove the headband and gain a whole other set of languages a day after they put it back on. So, for the same game balance reasons, it makes sense for the bonus languages to be set when the item was created, just like the skills.
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On the other hand, having to pick more languages than you have levels when you first buy the headband would be kind of silly, so the best approach is probably just to be good and not change languages (or even take off the headband).
Not that the ability to abuse a non-hardcoded headband's languages is anything but the tiniest of corner cases anyway...
EDIT: Note that I'm speaking in the context of PFS, where the odds of encountering a language, needing to read it, and having the time to reset the headband and wait a day but not having access to comprehend languages... well, let's just say the odds of that specific situation are REALLY small. So unless someone knows another way to abuse this, I'd categorize the language issue as "not worth giving two flips about".
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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but this would mean that if I have one rank in Lingustics (which gave me Dwarven) and then put on a headband keyed to Lingustics which knew languages X1,X2,X3,X4 etc., but NOT Dwarven, that my Dwarven would be overlaid by X1?
I don't think so, no.
Whenever you already have a few ranks in a skill, and don a headband of intellect that gives you ranks in that skill, it increses your ranks up to your level.
Example nosig's 6th-level cleric has 2 ranks in Disable Device, but no ranks in Stealth. He wears a headband of intellect +4 that grants Disable Device and Stealth. As soon as the skill ranks come on-line, the cleric has 6 ranks in both Disable Device and Stealth.
So, let's say your 5th-level orc witch PC has two ranks in Linguistics, and knows the languages Taldan, Orc, Goblin (for high Intelligence), Aklo, and Vuldrani (for Linguistics). She buys a headband of intellect +2 (Linguistics: Elf, Goblin, Draconic, Azlanti, Osirioni, Chelish... .) She gets (level - current ranks) 3 additional ranks in Linguistics. I'd let her skip the Goblin tongue since she already knows that one. She'd be suddenly fluent in Elf, Draconic, and Azlanti.
It doesn't write over any current knowledge.
On the other hand, having to pick more languages than you have levels when you first buy the headband would be kind of silly, so the best approach is probably just to be good and not change languages (or even take off the headband).
Not that the ability to abuse a non-hardcoded headband's languages is anything but the tiniest of corner cases anyway...
Agreed. By the strict argument, the GM should set the languages in the headband, since it's the creator who would choose them. Unless the pc is having it specially made and seeks out a crafter who can put those languages in it.
Pick the languages when you level, don't change them. Don't try to abuse the rules.
Also don't forget that removing the headband resets the Int bonus to temporary.
Naturally the creator chooses "all languages", since there is no limit to how many you can learn, since it's entirely based on the wearer's HD.
I think everyone is making this way more complicated than it needs to be. You put the headband on, you get skill ranks, you pick your languages. If you want to remove your headband for 24 hours and then put it back on again to change your languages around, I don't see that as being all that broken.
The most consistent and elegant approach would be to simply ban Linguistics as a helm skill choice. No other skill is built the way Linguistics is.On the other hand, having to pick more languages than you have levels when you first buy the headband would be kind of silly, so the best approach is probably just to be good and not change languages (or even take off the headband).
Not that the ability to abuse a non-hardcoded headband's languages is anything but the tiniest of corner cases anyway...
Agreed. By the strict argument, the GM should set the languages in the headband, since it's the creator who would choose them. Unless the pc is having it specially made and seeks out a crafter who can put those languages in it.
Pick the languages when you level, don't change them. Don't try to abuse the rules.
Also don't forget that removing the headband resets the Int bonus to temporary.
Naturally the creator chooses "all languages", since there is no limit to how many you can learn, since it's entirely based on the wearer's HD.
I think everyone is making this way more complicated than it needs to be. You put the headband on, you get skill ranks, you pick your languages. If you want to remove your headband for 24 hours and then put it back on again to change your languages around, I don't see that as being all that broken.
Not really, because the system is already inelegant. You get skill points just for having your Intelligence modifier raised for 24 hours or more. The headband is redundant, and RAW gives you twice as many skill points as you should have.
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The headband could just be hyper activating the point of your brain so you learn languages much faster, so they don't need to be ones the creator knew and explains why you get 20 extra languages when you're an archmage when the schmuck that made it was only 7th level.
Not really, because the system is already inelegant. You get skill points just for having your Intelligence modifier raised for 24 hours or more. The headband is redundant, and RAW gives you twice as many skill points as you should have.If I wear a headband of vast intelligence, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?
No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence. You don't get the item's built-in skill ranks and another set to assign however you want.
That doesn't affect anything I said, thejeff. The rules are quite clear. It isn't the item's fault.
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That doesn't affect anything I said, thejeff. The rules are quite clear. It isn't the item's fault.The headband is redundant, and RAW gives you twice as many skill points as you should have.If I wear a headband of vast intelligence, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?
No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence. You don't get the item's built-in skill ranks and another set to assign however you want.
Unless you misspoke, Ashiel, his citation flatly contradicts you.
You said that the headband's effect makes you end up with twice as many skill ranks as you should have. Presumably (as I can't think of any other interpretation of your words) you mean that you get the assigned skill ranks mentioned in the headband's description in addition to skill ranks gained from now having a higher INT mod.
That's exactly what the cited FAQ says doesn't happen. So were you meaning something else?
That doesn't affect anything I said, thejeff. The rules are quite clear. It isn't the item's fault.The headband is redundant, and RAW gives you twice as many skill points as you should have.If I wear a headband of vast intelligence, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?
No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence. You don't get the item's built-in skill ranks and another set to assign however you want.Unless you misspoke, Ashiel, his citation flatly contradicts you.
You said that the headband's effect makes you end up with twice as many skill ranks as you should have. Presumably (as I can't think of any other interpretation of your words) you mean that you get the assigned skill ranks mentioned in the headband's description in addition to skill ranks gained from now having a higher INT mod.
That's exactly what the cited FAQ says doesn't happen. So were you meaning something else?
Nope. I don't really mean anything else. I'm saying there has been no official errata, only a FAQ entry, that does not mesh with the rules as they exist. Maybe they will eventually make an errata, but the core rules state directly that any bonus that lasts for 24+ hours is considered a permanent bonus and grants you skill points retroactively. The item then gives as an ability of the item additional skill points. RAW, you get the skill points for the +2, +4, or +6 Intelligence bonus AND the extra skill points that the magic item grants. Is that what is intended? No. But that's what occurs RAW, because the rules are very poorly written concerning these things.
It's two different rules interacting in a way that the writers just frankly didn't fix. Look at it like a computer program for a moment. Let's pretend that there is a rule that says getting +2 Intelligence grants retroactive skill points. Then someone writes a subscript that says that this item gives +2 Intelligence and then for every 2 points of Intelligence bonus the item grants additional skill points. Now you might have intended for these additional points to have been the points from the standard rule, but you did a crappy job of scripting it.
So the result? You end up with a glitch that is granting points twice. Hence why I said it's not elegantly in the first place. It's a bit of a mess. The initial fix broke it more. It's why I ignore the skill effect of the items and instead just go with the old 3.x version that just gives the +X Intelligence modifier, and let the retroactive skill points work as they say they do in the rules for gaining ability score bonuses.
The headband description should have said "You gain extra skill points when you wear this for more than 24 hours, as is standard for any intelligence attribute increase", since they intended the extra text as a reminder as opposed to a new rule.
Exactly.
Ashiel, you could just say you don't count the FAQ. I'd have been able to extrapolate the rest from there. ;)
Sorry, I was trying to explain the issue so you wouldn't have to do as much legwork. Sometimes running around the PRD to reference all the stuff folks are talking about can be tedious, aye? (^_^)"
That doesn't affect anything I said, thejeff. The rules are quite clear. It isn't the item's fault.The headband is redundant, and RAW gives you twice as many skill points as you should have.If I wear a headband of vast intelligence, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?
No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence. You don't get the item's built-in skill ranks and another set to assign however you want.Unless you misspoke, Ashiel, his citation flatly contradicts you.
You said that the headband's effect makes you end up with twice as many skill ranks as you should have. Presumably (as I can't think of any other interpretation of your words) you mean that you get the assigned skill ranks mentioned in the headband's description in addition to skill ranks gained from now having a higher INT mod.
That's exactly what the cited FAQ says doesn't happen. So were you meaning something else?
I think Ashiel is saying the FAQ contradicts RAW. I see the point he is making, but I think intent trumps RAW. The question of how it plays at the table now becomes do you go by RAW or RAI.
Of course the idea of gaining a language for intelligence after character creation has never been answered to my knowledge. I always thought the intent was for your intelligence modifier to only give you bonus languages at character creation, but I saw some good arguments for the other viewpoint in another thread.
This leads to another question, but it requires an entire thread. I will start the thread when I get home.
PS:It is on the merits of FAQ vs Errata.
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I guess I always figured the official FAQ counted as, well, official. PFS holds you to it, and heck, sometimes it actually alters the rules text, just like an errata document would. Never found someone who didn't count it before.
You might want to give folks a heads-up on that in the future, Ashiel. ;)
Nope. I don't really mean anything else. I'm saying there has been no official errata, only a FAQ entry, that does not mesh with the rules as they exist. Maybe they will eventually make an errata, but the core rules state directly that any bonus that lasts for 24+ hours is considered a permanent bonus and grants you skill points retroactively. The item then gives as an ability of the item additional skill points. RAW, you get the skill points for the +2, +4, or +6 Intelligence bonus AND the extra skill points that the magic item grants. Is that what is intended? No. But that's what occurs RAW, because the rules are very poorly written concerning these things.You're misreading the text.
And you're misreading my posts. Let's call it even.
I think Ashiel is saying the FAQ contradicts RAW. I see the point he is making, but I think intent trumps RAW. The question of how it plays at the table now becomes do you go by RAW or RAI.Of course the idea of gaining a language for intelligence after character creation has never been answered to my knowledge. I always thought the intent was for your intelligence modifier to only give you bonus languages at character creation, but I saw some good arguments for the other viewpoint in another thread.
Something I would also note is that I was not advocating any particular viewpoint. Merely pointing out the mechanical implications. I honestly do not care if someone uses the FAQ or not, or fixes it themselves. I myself just ignored the extra effect of the item and went with the core rules. Do I particularly care that removing a headband for a full 24 hours, and then having to done it and wait another full 24 hours, could allow you to swap a few skill points around? No, no I really don't.
As far as I can tell, Ashiel is simply trying to say that the item should have been written a different way to match the intent, not that it should be played differently than the FAQ states.
As far as I can tell, Ashiel is simply trying to say that the item should have been written a different way to match the intent, not that it should be played differently than the FAQ states.
Pretty much. I was saying that as it is, it's horribly inelegant.
On the other hand, having to pick more languages than you have levels when you first buy the headband would be kind of silly, so the best approach is probably just to be good and not change languages (or even take off the headband).
Not that the ability to abuse a non-hardcoded headband's languages is anything but the tiniest of corner cases anyway...
Agreed. By the strict argument, the GM should set the languages in the headband, since it's the creator who would choose them. Unless the pc is having it specially made and seeks out a crafter who can put those languages in it.
Pick the languages when you level, don't change them. Don't try to abuse the rules.
Also don't forget that removing the headband resets the Int bonus to temporary.
Naturally the creator chooses "all languages", since there is no limit to how many you can learn, since it's entirely based on the wearer's HD.
I think everyone is making this way more complicated than it needs to be. You put the headband on, you get skill ranks, you pick your languages. If you want to remove your headband for 24 hours and then put it back on again to change your languages around, I don't see that as being all that broken.
Perhaps not broken, but flatly against the spirit of the Int headband, which hard-codes skills specifically so you can't take the headband off and change the skills around.
I hate, hate, hate this headband so much, but my players won't let me ban it. They seldom pick one up before 15th level, (which we rarely play unto), yet they still won't let me ban it.
Do I particularly care that removing a headband for a full 24 hours, and then having to done it and wait another full 24 hours, could allow you to swap a few skill points around?
Where are you getting the first 24 hours from? If you remove it, even for a moment, it's no longer functioning. Since you're not wearing the item, when you put it back on, it's granting a temporary bonus again.