I never said it was better. I said "the beacon of freedom we should have been", not "the beacon of freedom we were". I am not one who thinks the "good old days" were good. The Haymaker Riots,
I don't know why, but I found this typo amusing.
We didn't lose in Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan because they had huge navies and air forces and vastly superior technology. We lost to poorly trained insurgents with (largely) light weapons.
...and diplomatic and political ass-hattery.
Minor problem, I think the British of the 1940's were a bit more civilized (or war weary, or even just flat broke) than the American government of 2012. Non-violence only works if the government you oppose has a conscience or no heart for violence or no means to oppress.
I'm no expert, but Gandhi was only one wing, one part (and I'm not even sure it was the biggest) of the movement for Indian independence.
There was plenty of violence on the subcontinent after WW II.
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Well, the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Otherwise you start arguing that the difference between 18" and 17.5" is negligible and then that 17.5" and 17" is as well and then 17" and 16.5" and so on and you have no regulation at all.That's when a female tells me that length doesn't matter, I laugh and laugh and laugh. And she breaks kayfabes and acknowledges her fib.
EDIT: I know I'm off topic. It just needed a Comrade Anklebiter moment.
That is flat out not true Urizen.
Girth is what matters the most as long as you have enough length but length by itself is sort of a waste if it is only like a 1/2 inch thick you only need about 6 inches and 1 1/2 thickness and most women are pretty happy so its the girth that really makes them happy though.
Wow, this is awesome and wrong on so may levels :-)
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And i have seen lives saved by legal carriers. Different view i guess.Nobody is arguing against you on that Andrew. They are saying that for things designed for no other reason to kill people, perhaps it should be a wee bit tougher to acquire them.Exactly. I've personally been put into danger by drunken "law-abiding citizens" who were legally carrying concealed semi-automatic pistols, so that's kind of a sore point for me.+1
Too bad these examples don't dominate the news cycle for a week or so.
*I wonder why?*
If Kirth is talking about what I think he is, where I think it was, I kind of doubt that idiot had a conceal carry permit.
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Here's the thing BT: not from anyone who's really studied the Constitution, no insult. The writers of the Constitution weren't talking in code. Whatever your reading of the second amendment, a well armed militia, or even the personal right to bare arms don't equal armed revolution.
There are countless mechanisms to avoid a tyrannical head of state taking power in the US, but they're all stuff like separation of powers and the amendment process. No where in the constitution is it written that people stockpiling weapons to overthrow the state is in the interest of the nation.
Mind you, the idea that it is written there is frequently put forth by those who find it politically expedient to do so.
I know that there is basically no way to say this politely, but I am stunned by your historical and political ignorance. I'm honestly not trying to be a wise ass. I will try to provide some information.
"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." – *Tacitus*
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." - Thomas Paine
"How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!" ... - Samuel Adams
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious.-Aristotle
"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other fourty nine." ----Thomas Jefferson
"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." ... Robert A. Heinlein
Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: First a right to life, secondly to liberty, and thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can. ... -Samuel Adams
The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened. ... Norman Thomas, Co-Founder ACLU
Patrick Henry 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836: ... "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."
"The cry has been that when war is declared, ... all opposition should therefore be hushed. ... A sentiment more unworthy of a free country could hardly be propagated. ... If the doctrine be admitted, rulers have only to declare war ... and they are screened at once from scrutiny." ... by:William Ellery Channing (1780-1842)
C.S. Lewis ... "It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satisfied; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity." -Thomas Jefferson
"What a stupendous, what an incomprehensible machine is man! ... Who can endure toil, famine, stripes, imprisonment & death itself ... in vindication of his own liberty, and the next moment... inflict on ... his fellow men a bondage, one hour of which is fraught with more misery ... than ages of that which he rose in rebellion to oppose." -Thomas Jefferson
If you love wealth more then liberty, the tranquility of servitude better then the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. ----Samuel Adams
Samuel Adams, Founding Father & American Patriot:
"... it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds ...."
"The right of revolution is the inherent right of a people to cast out their rulers, change their polity, or effect radical reforms in their system of government or institutions, by force or a general uprising, when the legal and constitutional methods of making such changes have proved inadequate, or are so obstructed as to be unavailable." (Henry Campbell Black)
"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under." (Henry Louis Mencken)
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." (Thomas Jefferson)
"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves." (Thomas Jefferson)
"The cry has been that when war is declared,
all opposition should therefore be hushed.
A sentiment more unworthy of a free country could hardly be propagated.
If the doctrine be admitted, rulers have only to declare war
and they are screened at once from scrutiny."
by:William Ellery Channing(1780-1842)
Infamous Hermann Goering Quote
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."
by: Hermann Goering
(1893-1946) Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and, as Hitler's designated successor, the second man in the Third Reich. [Göring]
Date: April 18, 1946
Source: Nuremberg Diary (Farrar, Straus & Co 1947), by Gustave Gilbert (an Allied appointed psychologist), who visited daily with Goering and his cronies in their cells, afterwards making notes and ultimately writing the book about these conversations.
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." --William Pitt the Younger, British Prime Minister 1783-1801 and 1804-1806
The welfare of the people has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience -- Albert Camus
"For in a Republic, who is "the country?" Is it the Government which is for the moment in the saddle? Why, the Government is merely a servant--merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them." --Mark Twain
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." --10th Amendment to the United States Constitution
Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state lives at the expense of everyone.-Frederic Bastiat
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together
in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal
system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." -Frederic Bastiat
"Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Thus the
beneficiaries are spared the shame and danger that their acts would
otherwise involve... But how is this legal plunder to be identified?
Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to
them and gives it to the other persons to whom it doesn't belong.
See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing
what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then
abolish that law without delay ... No legal plunder; this is the
principle of justice, peace, order, stability, harmony and logic." -Frederic Bastiat
"In the beginning a patriot is a scarce man: Hated, feared and scorned; but in time, when his cause succeeds, the timid join them, because then it costs nothing to be a patriot."----Mark Twain
My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
Thomas Paine
My mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine
Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.
Thomas Paine
One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.
Thomas Paine
Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law.
Thomas Paine
Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
Thomas Paine
Reputation is what men and women think of us; character is what God and angels know of us.
Thomas Paine
A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right.
Thomas Paine
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.
Thomas Paine
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
Thomas Paine
An army of principles can penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot.
Thomas Paine
Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true.
Thomas Paine
Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.
Thomas Paine
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine
But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing.
Thomas Paine
Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine
Every religion is good that teaches man to be good; and I know of none that instructs him to be bad.
Thomas Paine
Every science has for its basis a system of principles as fixed and unalterable as those by which the universe is regulated and governed. Man cannot make principles; he can only discover them.
Thomas Paine
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Thomas Paine
He that rebels against reason is a real rebel, but he that in defence of reason rebels against tyranny has a better title to Defender of the Faith, than George the Third.
Thomas Paine
He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
Thomas Paine
He who is the author of a war lets loose the whole contagion of hell and opens a vein that bleeds a nation to death.
Thomas Paine
Human nature is not of itself vicious.
Thomas Paine
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
Thomas Paine
I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.
Thomas Paine
If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
Thomas Paine
If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately.
Thomas Paine
Is it not a species of blasphemy to call the New Testament revealed religion, when we see in it such contradictions and absurdities.
Thomas Paine
It is an affront to treat falsehood with complaisance.
Thomas Paine
It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.
Thomas Paine
It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving, it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.
Thomas Paine
It is not a field of a few acres of ground, but a cause, that we are defending, and whether we defeat the enemy in one battle, or by degrees, the consequences will be the same.
Thomas Paine
It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes.
Thomas Paine
It is the direction and not the magnitude which is to be taken into consideration.
Thomas Paine
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
Thomas Paine
Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.
Thomas Paine
My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
Thomas Paine
My mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine
Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.
Thomas Paine
One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.
Thomas Paine
Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law.
Thomas Paine
Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
Thomas Paine
Reputation is what men and women think of us; character is what God and angels know of us.
Thomas Paine
Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best stage, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one.
Thomas Paine
Suspicion is the companion of mean souls, and the bane of all good society.
Thomas Paine
That God cannot lie, is no advantage to your argument, because it is no proof that priests can not, or that the Bible does not.
Thomas Paine
That which we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly.
Thomas Paine
The abilities of man must fall short on one side or the other, like too scanty a blanket when you are abed. If you pull it upon your shoulders, your feet are left bare; if you thrust it down to your feet, your shoulders are uncovered.
Thomas Paine
The greatest remedy for anger is delay.
Thomas Paine
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.
Thomas Paine
The instant formal government is abolished, society begins to act. A general association takes place, and common interest produces common security.
Thomas Paine
The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.
Thomas Paine
The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress, and grows brave by reflection.
Thomas Paine
The strength and power of despotism consists wholly in the fear of resistance.
Thomas Paine
The Vatican is a dagger in the heart of Italy.
Thomas Paine
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum.
Thomas Paine
The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
Thomas Paine
There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice.
Thomas Paine
There are two distinct classes of what are called thoughts: those that we produce in ourselves by reflection and the act of thinking and those that bolt into the mind of their own accord.
Thomas Paine
These are the times that try men's souls.
Thomas Paine
Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.
Thomas Paine
Time makes more converts than reason.
Thomas Paine
'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.
Thomas Paine
Titles are but nicknames, and every nickname is a title.
Thomas Paine
To establish any mode to abolish war, however advantageous it might be to Nations, would be to take from such Government the most lucrative of its branches.
Thomas Paine
To say that any people are not fit for freedom, is to make poverty their choice, and to say they had rather be loaded with taxes than not.
Thomas Paine
Virtues are acquired through endeavor, Which rests wholly upon yourself. So, to praise others for their virtues Can but encourage one's own efforts.
Thomas Paine
War involves in its progress such a train of unforeseen circumstances that no human wisdom can calculate the end; it has but one thing certain, and that is to increase taxes.
Thomas Paine
We can only reason from what is; we can reason on actualities, but not on possibilities.
Thomas Paine
We have it in our power to begin the world over again.
Thomas Paine
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value.
Thomas Paine
When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon.
Thomas Paine
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
‘‘Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? ... If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?’’
— Patrick Henry
‘‘No slave shall keep any arms whatever, nor pass, unless with written orders from his master or employer, or in his company, with arms from one place to another. Arms in possession of a slave contrary to this prohibition shall be forfeited to him who will seize them.’’
— A Bill Concerning Slaves, Virginia Assembly, 1779
‘‘No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements).’’
— Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution (with his note added), 1776. Papers 1:353
‘‘To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...’’
— Richard Henry Lee, 1787
"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
We must make our election between economy and liberty
or profusion and servitude.
If we run into such debt, as that we must be taxed in our meat and
in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and
our amusements, for our calling and our creeds...
[we will] have no time to think,
no means of calling our miss-managers to account
but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves
to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers...
And this is the tendency of all human governments.
A departure from principle in one instance
becomes a precedent for [another ]...
till the bulk of society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery...
And the fore-horse of this frightful team is public debt.
Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."
Quote by:
Thomas Jefferson
(1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President
Source:
Letter to Samuel Kercheval, Monticello, July 12, 1816
A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny. ~ Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended. Its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and morals, engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. - James Madison
We didn't lose in Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan because they had huge navies and air forces and vastly superior technology. We lost to poorly trained insurgents with (largely) light weapons.
After 20+ years of fighting before America even got there, I'm pretty sure the NLF weren't "poorly trained."
Hit dice, I'll have much much more soon.
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Listen, I know we're not going to solve a decades-if-not-centuries old debate in one morning on the internet, but citation please?Because the intent of the second amendment was to allow for armed revolution to always be a possibility. It had nothing to do with hunting.Holmes had a 100 round drum magazine, that apparently jammed somewhere around shot 50.
There has to be some balance between a reasonable ability to defend yourself and something that dangerous. What POSSIBLE rational is there for a 100 round clip to be legal? If you need that many shots to hit the deer you really, really don't belong out in the woods.
Start with the Federalist Papers, then start reading Jefferson's collected works. Do your own research on this one, it'll be enlightening.
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Down with gun control!
For international proletarian socialist revolution!
Vive le Galt!!!!!!!
Oh yeah, someone said something above about left-wing authoritarianism. Well, there's no such thing, and if you disagree, I'm sending you to the Fun-Timey Reeducation Through Labor Supercenter, stooge!
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I never said it was better. I said "the beacon of freedom we should have been", not "the beacon of freedom we were". I am not one who thinks the "good old days" were good. The Haymaker Riots,I don't know why, but I found this typo amusing.
Dude, I'm doing this from memory on zero sleep and too much gurgle gurgle :-)
We didn't lose in Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan because they had huge navies and air forces and vastly superior technology. We lost to poorly trained insurgents with (largely) light weapons.After 20+ years of fighting before America even got there, I'm pretty sure the NLF weren't "poorly trained."
In the context of BNW's statement I would disagree.
In the context of my statement that highly motivated and experienced light infantry and insurgents can be extremely deadly against forces that we would normally assume to be superior I would say that this is the point.
BT, I'm not arguing that the sentiment hasn't been expressed throughout history a zillion and a half times from Tacitus to Solzhenitsyn, that a tyrannical state is a very very bad thing. But TWF claimed that it was the intent of the second amendment that armed revolution always be a possibility, and thus there can be no limit on the right to bear arms. I asked for a citation on that, not a wall of text on the evils of tyranny.
Y'know, I love Thomas Paine, too, but damn, BT, spoiler tags are your friend!
Dude, I'm doing this from memory on zero sleep and too much gurgle gurgle :-)I never said it was better. I said "the beacon of freedom we should have been", not "the beacon of freedom we were". I am not one who thinks the "good old days" were good. The Haymaker Riots,I don't know why, but I found this typo amusing.
I don't know if it was this thread or the other one about guns that got into a gun at a knifefight at a fistfight discussion, so, I laughed.
In the context of BNW's statement I would disagree.
In the context of my statement that highly motivated and experienced light infantry and insurgents can be extremely deadly against forces that we would normally assume to be superior I would say that this is the point.
That's right, GI, highly-motivated and experienced.
(I forgot I had this alias.)
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But we outlaw the rocket launchers,tanks, and fighter jets that you'd need to take a serious go at it. The idea of doing anything more than making a token resistance against the government went out with world war I. Sure, you can make the government go through greater lengths to take you down and that will raise a greater public outcry, but you'll have the same effect with 14 shots as with 100.
You are utterly wrong.
If you think light infantry and insurgents can't defeat a vastly superior force in terms of technology, army, navy, air force, marines, money, satellites etc. then I submit that you have missed decades of asymmetrical warfare.
We didn't lose in Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan because they had huge navies and air forces and vastly superior technology. We lost to poorly trained insurgents with (largely) light weapons.
So if that's the purpose, then we should be fine with outlawing concealed carry and you should be working towards actual assault rifles, RPGs, mortars, SAMs and IEDs. That's what gets used for asymetric warfare.
The other important factor in those cases was that they were all wars of occupation, waged by foreigners against an enemy that had the support of a good part of the civilian population.Frankly none of this would matter in a 2nd American Revolution scenario. If you try armed resistance without a significant segment of the military coming to your side you're going to be squashed. If a significant part of the military comes over, you'll have the weapons you need. If you don't have the support of at least a solid majority of the civilian population, you shouldn't be rebelling.
I think you'd be a lot better off with unarmed non-violent resistance, at least to start with. The military is a lot less likely to slaughter unarmed protesters than to attack groups of armed domestic terrorists. You'd get less sympathy and thus less support, both from other civilians and from potential military sympathizers.
...
Considering the percentage of military from Red states compared to Blue states, I think the chance of the military crossing over in any useful numbers kind of depends on who's sitting in the Oval Office. I'll give you a hint, the blue states are poorly represented. And people from the blue states in the military tend not to vote blue.
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BT, I'm not arguing that the sentiment hasn't been expressed throughout history a zillion and a half times from Tacitus to Solzhenitsyn, that a tyrannical state is a very very bad thing. But TWF claimed that it was the intent of the second amendment that armed revolution always be a possibility, and thus there can be no limit on the right to bear arms. I asked for a citation on that, not a wall of text on the evils of tyranny.
Again, Federalist Papers, then Jefferson. The Framers were a prolific bunch when it came to writing, the only people who seem to have trouble figuring out what they meant when they wrote the Constitution are people who need to bury it because they disagree with the Constitution.
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Laws tend to be all or nothing things. You are allowed or not allowed to do soemthing. Laws with a bunch of caveats are even harder to enforce and clog up bureaucrasy and also usually do little toward the purpose they have been written. We have many laws like this.
The second anmendment says US citizens may keep and bear arms. So any law that would be passed would have to be very carefully worded, or be repealed due to being unconstitutional. I can understand why a foreigner would have trouble with our legislative process :)As to whether or not those criminals would have had access to guns, you'd have to ask yourself whether criminals would obey any gun legislation in the first place.
In fairness, it isn't that simple. More restrictive laws would make it harder to get guns illegally. Whether or not a given criminal would still have managed it is unknowable.
In any event, until those who wish to make gun ownership illegal can amend the Constitution, the point is moot. "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed" is pretty clear.
In theory the war on drugs should have made drugs harder to get and more expensive, but in the real world we have wasted about a TRILLION dollars and drugs are easier for kids to get, and cheaper and stronger. We also have almost a million non violent drug offenders in prison and millions in the system.
Respectfully I'm not convinced that more restrictive laws would make it harder to get guns at all or help public safety in any real way, but i' sure that the black market would continue to expand.
BT, I'm not arguing that the sentiment hasn't been expressed throughout history a zillion and a half times from Tacitus to Solzhenitsyn, that a tyrannical state is a very very bad thing. But TWF claimed that it was the intent of the second amendment that armed revolution always be a possibility, and thus there can be no limit on the right to bear arms. I asked for a citation on that, not a wall of text on the evils of tyranny.Again, Federalist Papers, then Jefferson. The Framers were a prolific bunch when it came to writing, the only people who seem to have trouble figuring out what they meant when they wrote the Constitution are people who need to bury it because they disagree with the Constitution.
Oh, I don't know. They pretty ably hid the fact that they wanted the country to be ruled as a plutocracy where slaveholders and wealthy merchants made all the decisions.
And I'd say that the people who need to cite other works to clarify what they meant are those who disagree with what they actually wrote; thus the conversation.
BT, I'm not arguing that the sentiment hasn't been expressed throughout history a zillion and a half times from Tacitus to Solzhenitsyn, that a tyrannical state is a very very bad thing. But TWF claimed that it was the intent of the second amendment that armed revolution always be a possibility, and thus there can be no limit on the right to bear arms. I asked for a citation on that, not a wall of text on the evils of tyranny.
I'll get you more soon, but there is a lot of it.
Oh, they were pretty up front about that too. After all, they had to amend the damn thing twice just to get everyone the vote, three times if you count changing the voting age to the "we can force you to die for your country" age.
You forgot the fine, hard-working residents of Washington, D.C., so that's at least four times.
But, still, I didn't see the word "plutocracy" in the Constitution s'all I meant.
Y'know, I love Thomas Paine, too, but damn, BT, spoiler tags are your friend!
Fixed
tired
Considering the percentage of military from Red states compared to Blue states, I think the chance of the military crossing over in any useful numbers kind of depends on who's sitting in the Oval Office. I'll give you a hint, the blue states are poorly represented. And people from the blue states in the military tend not to vote blue.I'm assuming, and God I'm hoping, that all of you talking about armed rebellion are doing so theoretically. About a situation that is far beyond the levels of repression we have now. About situations like those in Syria and other Arab Spring countries where mass demonstrations aren't put down with tear gas and pepper spray, but with bullets and helicopters and tanks.
Not about partisan electoral politics.Because an armed rebellion in the US, assuming it wasn't simply crushed at the start, would lead to years of fighting with hundreds of thousands dead, millions displaced, and quite likely, even if successful, a more repressive regime than it replaced. The history of such rebellions isn't promising.
They are sometimes necessary, but only as the least worst option.
Yes, of course, Comrade Jeff, I'm only speaking theoretically.
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For handy reference, in free e-text format: The Federalist Papers!
Just as an aside: does anyone here actually think the government of the US has YOUR best interest at heart when making decisions?
No need to respond to that hypothetical question, but it's something to keep in mind, at least.
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Considering the percentage of military from Red states compared to Blue states, I think the chance of the military crossing over in any useful numbers kind of depends on who's sitting in the Oval Office. I'll give you a hint, the blue states are poorly represented. And people from the blue states in the military tend not to vote blue.I'm assuming, and God I'm hoping, that all of you talking about armed rebellion are doing so theoretically. About a situation that is far beyond the levels of repression we have now. About situations like those in Syria and other Arab Spring countries where mass demonstrations aren't put down with tear gas and pepper spray, but with bullets and helicopters and tanks.
Not about partisan electoral politics.Because an armed rebellion in the US, assuming it wasn't simply crushed at the start, would lead to years of fighting with hundreds of thousands dead, millions displaced, and quite likely, even if successful, a more repressive regime than it replaced. The history of such rebellions isn't promising.
They are sometimes necessary, but only as the least worst option.
Dude, we're not that far off. Our poor are getting really poor, our middle class is shrinking, and the fat cats are sweating lard they're getting so fat. Couple that with our jack booted thugs continually shooting defenseless and unarmed people, and clashes getting crazy any time people gather to have their voice heard (rubber bullets and tear gas now, but I'm certain we're going to have some Kent State style panic shootings from cops that push too far and can't deal with the backlash). We have an entire segment of our population who is more disenfranchised than they were twenty years ago, and suffer police oppression you and I probably can't fathom.
And it will keep deteriorating because we have a large segment of the population that couldn't care less as long as they get their Pawn Stars and Teen Mom 24/7. A majority of Americans don't even bother to vote because the either don't care, or feel like it is pointless in the face of no real choice. We are a doomed nation, frankly. We had our run, but we are toast. Even the party that is supposed to watch out for the common man's interest is choking on Wall Street's fun place like a porn star.
For handy reference, in free e-text format: The Federalist Papers!
Just as an aside: does anyone here actually think the government of the US has YOUR best interest at heart when making decisions?
No need to respond to that hypothetical question, but it's something to keep in mind, at least.
Actually, i think a response is required.
A large part of the problem is that there is no one unified 'Government of the US'. 'the government' cannot think, cannot want, cannot have my best interests at heart etc... People within it can.
I know there are parts of government that want to help people. I know there are people in the EPA for instance that really care about the pollutants being dumped in our drinking water and get up every day and go to an office to put up with a lot of crap when they'd rather be out hiking. It IS annoying, it is a lot of red tape, it is a lot of paperwork, it is a bureaucratic mess... but its been done with good intentions and with good results. Anyone that says otherwise really ought to look into when rivers used to catch on fire.
I also know there are other parts of government all too happy to take a bribe and send our military into harms way for corporate profit, but the vast majority of the government is just people showing up trying to do their jobs so they can go home to their family's.
Hm. Anyone here believe in a happy medium?
Well, what can I tell you, my point was that there's no footnote in the Constitution which reads "See everything else we wrote but didn't include for clarification."
I'm more than willing to talk about second amendment rights vs gun control, which I personally don't see as a clear cut issue in either direction. But saying that armed overthrow of the US government is the point of the second amendment is as pointless to the conversation as saying that the founders couldn't foresee the invention of fully automatic weapons, so they weren't talking about the right to bare those arms.
As always, we can't have a conversation about reasonable gun control without the early response being, "The authoritarian state can never have my guns!"
BT, I'm not arguing that the sentiment hasn't been expressed throughout history a zillion and a half times from Tacitus to Solzhenitsyn, that a tyrannical state is a very very bad thing. But TWF claimed that it was the intent of the second amendment that armed revolution always be a possibility, and thus there can be no limit on the right to bear arms. I asked for a citation on that, not a wall of text on the evils of tyranny.I'll get you more soon, but there is a lot of it.There may be a lot of it but try to focus more. You posted a ton of stuff about the evils of government, but little specifically about the intent of the 2nd amendment.
I didn't see any, but I gave up reading and only skimmed after the first few said nothing about the 2nd amendment or rebelling against the US government.
Although I gotta say, one doesn't usually see Tacitus, Solzhenitsyn, Norman Thomas and C.S. Lewis all rounded up in one post.
That's pretty neat.
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For handy reference, in free e-text format: The Federalist Papers!
Just as an aside: does anyone here actually think the government of the US has YOUR best interest at heart when making decisions?
No need to respond to that hypothetical question, but it's something to keep in mind, at least.
Actually, i think a response is required.
A large part of the problem is that there is no one unified 'Government of the US'. 'the government' cannot think, cannot want, cannot have my best interests at heart etc... People within it can.
I know there are parts of government that want to help people. I know there are people in the EPA for instance that really care about the pollutants being dumped in our drinking water and get up every day and go to an office to put up with a lot of crap when they'd rather be out hiking. It IS annoying, it is a lot of red tape, it is a lot of paperwork, it is a bureaucratic mess... but its been done with good intentions and with good results. Anyone that says otherwise really ought to look into when rivers used to catch on fire.
I also know there are other parts of government all too happy to take a bribe and send our military into harms way for corporate profit, but the vast majority of the government is just people showing up trying to do their jobs so they can go home to their family's.
You mistake the workers for the powers that be. The man was talking about the 535+9+2+the cabinet who actually make decisions.
Oh, and I think a big reason Cleveland is the fastest shrinking city in America is that the Cuyahoga River doesn't catch fire any more. At least that was something to wonder at. Now, there's nothing that distinguishes Cleveland from, say, Beirut.
Hm. Anyone here believe in a happy medium?
Well there was that fortune teller who got a 100 dollar tip...
Other than that I'd like to see a cap on gun capacities and rates of fire on new guns being manufactured.
I have a suspicion that HD only mentioned Cleveland so that I could post a Musical Interlude.
"Just as an aside: does anyone here actually think the government of the US has YOUR (meaning you, specifically. possibly also your family) best interest at heart when making decisions?"
Yes, but only where there is mutual benefit. That's how the whole thing works. Always has.
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I have a suspicion that HD only mentioned Cleveland so that I could post a Musical Interlude.
Dude, I haven't gurgled nearly enough to listen to that...
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"Just as an aside: does anyone here actually think the government of the US has YOUR (meaning you, specifically. possibly also your family) best interest at heart when making decisions?"Yes, but only where there is mutual benefit. That's how the whole thing works. Always has.
Yeah, unfortunately, it seems the PTB see less and less mutual benefit every day.
No seriously, though, does it have to be all or nothing on gun control?
I mean, I believe in serious gun regulation while also believing that a state where only the authorities are armed is a very bad thing.
I actually think we have a lot of gun rights in the US now, and fewer wouldn't be a total deal breaker.
More guns is a silly (and probably ineffective) solution, no guns is a solution with unintended consequences. Guns to the right people is common sense, but subject to many of the same problems as no guns.
In the absence of a perfect solution, I'll take our ongoing give-take democratic system where everyone's a little unhappy and call it a day!
But we outlaw the rocket launchers,tanks, and fighter jets that you'd need to take a serious go at it. The idea of doing anything more than making a token resistance against the government went out with world war I. Sure, you can make the government go through greater lengths to take you down and that will raise a greater public outcry, but you'll have the same effect with 14 shots as with 100.
You are utterly wrong.
If you think light infantry and insurgents can't defeat a vastly superior force in terms of technology, army, navy, air force, marines, money, satellites etc. then I submit that you have missed decades of asymmetrical warfare.
We didn't lose in Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan because they had huge navies and air forces and vastly superior technology. We lost to poorly trained insurgents with (largely) light weapons.
So if that's the purpose, then we should be fine with outlawing concealed carry and you should be working towards actual assault rifles, RPGs, mortars, SAMs and IEDs. That's what gets used for asymetric warfare.
The other important factor in those cases was that they were all wars of occupation, waged by foreigners against an enemy that had the support of a good part of the civilian population.Frankly none of this would matter in a 2nd American Revolution scenario. If you try armed resistance without a significant segment of the military coming to your side you're going to be squashed. If a significant part of the military comes over, you'll have the weapons you need. If you don't have the support of at least a solid majority of the civilian population, you shouldn't be rebelling.
I think you'd be a lot better off with unarmed non-violent resistance, at least to start with. The military is a lot less likely to slaughter unarmed protesters than to attack groups of armed domestic terrorists. You'd get less sympathy and thus less support, both from other civilians and from potential military sympathizers.
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Sad
I can be in favor of the fundamental human right to self defense against a tyrannical state and petty criminals at the same time.
LOOK! I'm doing it now. It's not mutually exclusive.
We aren't as stupid as you think we are. We know what we will need to do to avoid nuclear holocaust. We understand that you and your kind will happily exterminate tens of millions to enforce your power just like you did in the first civil war, and you will probably sleep well the same night.
I don't see nonviolent resistance changing any of that in the slightest.
Some of the military will follow orders, and some of the military will follow the Constitution. Human nature is to obey like cattle, but I think many of our troops are better than that. We don't need many nukes. We just need enough to make the folks who think they own us think twice. This won't be settled with polite disagreement. If you want to strip me and my family of our fundamental human rights then come and take them if you can.
We just wanted to mind our own business. That's all we wanted, but you and people like you had to try to control us.
The time will come sooner than you think when this all ends very very badly. All we wanted to do was run our own lives. It doesn't seem like too much to ask.
We just wanted to mind our own business. That's all we wanted, but you and people like you had to try to control us.
The time will come sooner than you think when this all ends very very badly. All we wanted to do was run our own lives. It doesn't seem like too much to ask.
Your use of the past tense is scary and akin to giving up.
I think there's a spectrum of viewpoints on these issues. Not everyone has to side with you or BNW. Many many people are in the middle.
Even if you think the "other side" are lunatic extremists or fascist authoritarians, you've got to realize that the end result of this country ought to put us in the middle somewhere.
Not much of a factor, eh? I think the families of those killed in said spree killings would disagree. But I guess they are just acceptable collateral damage so people can get their shiny cool guns.So, a high rate of gun violence probably points to severe societal problems.Yes.
In that case, would it not be responsible to make the access to guns more difficult to reduce the tendency to solve these problems at gunpoint?The problem there is that it won't really work. We'd switch to knives and bats to solve disagreements. It might make spree killings harder, but those are so far into the minority to not be much of a factor here.
The simple fact of the matter is that such killings make up less than a percent of all gun killings. That doesn't have much effect on the overall violent crime rate, which is what gun control is supposed to tweak.
Furtheremore, there are a LOT of guns in the country, and they won't go away if banned. Even if all guns were made illegal in the US, any criminal who wanted one would be able to get one. All gun control here would do is disarm those who actually obey the law.Yup, like the guy who just legally purchased all the weapons he used to kill 12 people.
And gun control =/= a complete ban on guns. It's a straw man argument.
I never said anyone wanted a complete ban on guns. I was just pointing out that, no matter how far we go with gun control, guns will still be easy to get. They are everywhere in this country, and if banned they will not go away, because a lot of people would ignore such a law.