Dark Good?


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Silver Crusade

I have always pictured LG and Superman as one and the same. Can LG be played dark and brooding? What fictional characters can I look at?


I suppose those that are more lawful/rules and orders driven than they are "good".


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Judge Dredd


brent norton wrote:
I have always pictured LG and Superman as one and the same. Can LG be played dark and brooding? What fictional characters can I look at?

Superman and lg are not the same, but superman is probably lg. Dont forget, alignement are guide, not absolute. A guy like Vincent, from Final fantasy, can be lg, but he his dark and tormented. But he his a soldier, loyal to his friend, can follow order and he his benevolent and kind. Lg

But also dark and brooding.

Batman can be lg. Dont kill beacause of his code of conduit, get out of the law, but because he believe in order, not because he refuse order. And he his good, even if he use tactic like mild torture and intimidation.

(you could argue that the bat is neutral good or chaotic good, but I prefer to stick with lg)

etc...


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I think of The Bat-Man as being that way; he has a very strong code of justice, and is brooding.

Bat-Ninja'd by vince-.


A lawful good character can decide that being LG is the best way to go for whatever reason, but not like it. So he is LG in all ways, but broods about it.

Dark Archive

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Batman is indeed Lawful Good - the same as Superman. Don't let the word "lawful" fool you... it has nothing to do with the law unless you want it to. It has to do with codified behaviour and personal discipline.

The Exchange

a lot of games denote that Paladins have the authority to be Judge, Jury and Executioner in uncivilized lands. Working with that assumption, one could easily play a 'dark' paladin, simply put them to the sword instead of seek redemption for them, unless mercy is asked for.

Silver Crusade

What about gray knights from the warhammer 40k universe? I always JD was LN like St.Cuthbert.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Severus Snape?


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BltzKrg242 wrote:
Judge Dredd

the poster boy for LN imho

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
brent norton wrote:
What about gray knights from the warhammer 40k universe? I always JD was LN like St.Cuthbert.

There is no good alignment in 40k.


hellharlequin wrote:
BltzKrg242 wrote:
Judge Dredd
the poster boy for LN imho

He's doing the best he can for the common man. Enforcing the law and protecting the population.

That's pretty well LG isn't it?


Judge Dredd is LG - in the world the character inhabits, anyway.

Paladin who were called upon by their deity or community without ever wanting to be a Paladin in the first place could be pretty P.O. about that, and end up "dark and brooding" while still doing "what needs to be done".

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BltzKrg242 wrote:
hellharlequin wrote:
BltzKrg242 wrote:
Judge Dredd
the poster boy for LN imho

He's doing the best he can for the common man. Enforcing the law and protecting the population.

That's pretty well LG isn't it?

Definitely LN

But what little I've read of Dredd, and not counting the Stalone flick, the man has always cared about the LAW.

Batman can be what ever alignment he wants

Dark Archive

In DnD 3.5 the complete scoundrel book had "scoundrel alignments" and examples of fictional characters Batman fell under Lawful Good Scoundrel.

Grand Lodge

My favorite example is Ned Stark from Game of Thrones. He was loyal, honest, had a personal code of conduct... But also put men to the sword for Desertion (always being the one to swing the sword himself) and killed in battle. Dark LG works best in a dark world where the cultural mores and expectations are a lot harsher.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

But but but Batman is CN...

Scarab Sages

Characters can be portrayed different ways, but the thing to remember is that actions define a character's alignment, not personality. You could very well play a character that wishes everyone were dead and hates people, but is kind and benevolent because he lacks the willpower to act on his inclinations. Such a character would be considered good, likely until such a time as he finds the willpower to act on his truer desires.


Harry Callahan.

Grand Lodge

My favorite example of a "dark" Lawful Good character is Ned Stark from Game of Thrones. He was loyal, honest, had a strict personal code of honor that he strayed from once and spent the rest of his life trying to atone for it. But he still put men to the sword for desertion (and even performed it himself), killed men in battle without hesitation, and brooded quite a bit---with good reason.

Dark LG is easier to do in darker worlds with harsher cultural mores and norms. You'll be hard pressed to find a lot of good examples in the mostly sanitized world of comic books.


Ned Stark was Lawful Stupid.

Shadow Lodge

I once played a paladin that was given/cursed by his sister as she died. He was just a stuck up noble until then. He was given the power to see evil and was asked to do something about it. He didn't want to see all the evil in the world but he couldn't stop. after 2 years of drinking to forget he finally decided to do something. He was actually a mercenary who would read the souls of those who hired him and those he was asked to fight, and somethings change sides. Once had to fight a party member about it. He was dark and vicious when it did come time to fight though. There was no forgiveness for the willfully evil.


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One thing I'm doing for a setting I'm working on is including one (or three) orders of paladins or paladin-like people whose requirement for entry is that prospective members must have done some great evil, realised their sin and now seek to undo their evil and fight others who would do the same. They believe that only the redeemed can truly understand the fight against evil and that those that have been good the whole time are naive (if well-meaning) fools.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
only the redeemed can truly understand the fight against evil and that those that have been good the whole time are naive (if well-meaning) fools.

Damn straight U.R.! This sums up my RL approach to life. When those "good" English magistrates sentenced thousands of poor "evil" folk to be transported to Australia as convicts for the merest infringements, they had no idea of the struggles of poor dispossessed people - for them, the blind eyes of justice were not moderated by any understanding of what might drive a person to commit "criminal" acts. Like hunger, malnutrition or intergenerational unemployment. If they did understand, they didn't care. Either naive or calculatingly bereft of ethics, no matter how lawful. (okay so my rant drifted - but my point is those who haven't known "evil" have no context or appreciation for it, thus no true understanding or proper compassion or means to counter it successfully...)

I've always considered fanatic legalists LN - there's very little "good" in them. Personally I would place Judge Dredd in LN with Good tendencies.
Bat-Dude? Depends on the writer! ;) everything from LG, LN, NG, N, CG to CN...

Grand Lodge

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Dammit, sorry for the double post. Had an issue with Firefox and I didn't think it posted the first time.

Anyway...

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Ned Stark was Lawful Stupid.

I disagree with that. He wasn't accustomed to the sort of intrigue and shady dealing he encountered in the south, but he wasn't stupid by any means. The man managed to hold a peaceful reign for twenty years after being suddenly thrust into it, put down an uprising and was a brilliant military strategist.

Truthfully, he was right about almost everything---in particular Daenrrys Targaryen---until... (this is a major spoiler through Feast of Crows, so if you're only watching the show and have not yet read the books, I strongly suggest you don't open the tab)

Spoiler:
...he put his faith in Littlefinger, but NOBODY in those books knew he was the one who poisoned Jon Arryn nor what he was plotting. Just about anybody in his position would've done the same.


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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
only the redeemed can truly understand the fight against evil and that those that have been good the whole time are naive (if well-meaning) fools.

Damn straight U.R.! This sums up my RL approach to life. When those "good" English magistrates sentenced thousands of poor "evil" folk to be transported to Australia as convicts for the merest infringements, they had no idea of the struggles of poor dispossessed people - for them, the blind eyes of justice were not moderated by any understanding of what might drive a person to commit "criminal" acts. Like hunger, malnutrition or intergenerational unemployment. If they did understand, they didn't care. Either naive or calculatingly bereft of ethics, no matter how lawful. (okay so my rant drifted - but my point is those who haven't known "evil" have no context or appreciation for it, thus no true understanding or proper compassion or means to counter it successfully...)

I've always considered fanatic legalists LN - there's very little "good" in them. Personally I would place Judge Dredd in LN with Good tendencies.
Bat-Dude? Depends on the writer! ;) everything from LG, LN, NG, N, CG to CN...

Right now I'm writing three different sects of this faction (note: I don't use alignments so the actual alignment of the following groups is highly subjective):

  • The Circle of the Broken Crown - The broken crown represents the arrogance of sin dashed upon the anvil of humility. The members of the Circle are the most straight-laced of the repentant orders, fighting for purity and virtue in their war against evil. They admit only members who have risen up from evil. Former murderers and rapists are amongst their number. They have sworn oaths never to do evil again and to fight it wherever it appears, for its taint will always dwell in their hearts and haunt them. That fear of returning to the dark ways is what drives them. They are the most forgiving of the orders, often accepting surrender and seeking to induct even their own enemies into their ways. The Circle of the Broken Crown never holds a grudge, but they do not let this keep them from putting an unrepentant villain to the sword if it is necessary.
  • The Knights of Penance - Often seen as simply another kind of evil by the other repentant orders, the Knights of Penance believe that sin can only be cleansed by suffering, both physical and emotional. They perform ritual torture and mutilation of themselves and are engines of terror on the battlefield. Each of them has committed some great sin and each day undergoes the blessed agonies to remind them of the pain they have caused others. They are also the most harsh toward their enemies, rarely giving quarter. Perhaps hypocritically, they believe evil that is surrenders in fear is just temporary cowardice that will again sink into sin. They only admit members whose own self-examination and inner pain at their realisations brought them to the order. The pain in themselves must never be forgotten.
  • The Blades of the Mother's Shadow - More an order of assassins, the Blades believe that their past sins can only be absolved by hunting down and silently dispatching paragons of evil that represent the very same moral failures. They consider themselves more pragmatic and think the righteous crusades the others go on cause more bloodshed than is necessary. While suffering is not their goal, efficacy often calls for the use of poisons and other methods considered nefarious. Nevertheless, the Blades are thorough in researching their enemies and consider it the utmost failure to assassinate a target not truly guilty and deserving of death. To this end, over the years they have compiled what may be the most extensive database of psychological profiles the planes has ever seen.


EntrerisShadow wrote:

Dammit, sorry for the double post. Had an issue with Firefox and I didn't think it posted the first time.

Anyway...

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Ned Stark was Lawful Stupid.

I disagree with that. He wasn't accustomed to the sort of intrigue and shady dealing he encountered in the south, but he wasn't stupid by any means. The man managed to hold a peaceful reign for twenty years after being suddenly thrust into it, put down an uprising and was a brilliant military strategist.

Truthfully, he was right about almost everything---in particular Daenrrys Targaryen---until... (this is a major spoiler through Feast of Crows, so if you're only watching the show and have not yet read the books, I strongly suggest you don't open the tab)

** spoiler omitted **

I gave up on those books after it was clear it was just another "Sword of Truth" or "Wheel of Time" endless series of unfinished stories, incomplete climaxes and gratuitous pornography masquerading as fantasy.

Unfortunately it took until Feast of Crows before I finally gave up on it. So much wasted time...


Jiggy wrote:
Severus Snape?

Verbally abusing students one has custody of, even if the school administration turns a blind eye due to politics, is neither lawful (given that the rules Snape presumably agreed to follow forbid it) nor good.


I view Snape as true neutral.

But applying the D&D alignment outside anything that doesn't use the system is very difficult with complex characters and even more with real life people.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Broody LG?

Sure: LG Dhampyre or Half-Orc or Tiefling Paladin (self-hating but righteous)

LG Human Necromancer (Realizes the error of his ways and tries to do the best he can, always resisting the tempation of darker magic to solve his problems)

LG Bard or Rogue, upholds a personal code of honor in an unjust nation.

LG Monk - Taken vows to make up for past crimes (think Shepherd Book from Firefly)

Brooch LG is easy you use your code to control temptation and you do good to redeem past sins.

Broody NG is harder, because it is pure good, but not impossible either.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Tony Stark(especially Civil War era) is a dark LG example.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Sanjay (Dresden Files) is a repentant Lawful Good.

Silver Crusade

So, this is why I asked this: I am making a PFS Character whose from Mendev. He has grown up there his entire life (25) and with nothing around him but the battles against the demons of the worldwound. After his company died around him he had to find an answer. How can this area ever be purged. He has decided to join the Pathfinders. The texts must know of some great weapons, magic that will finally stop this war. He know believes that he must collect every obscure weapon to help destroy the demons and those who work with them. Even if the has to use demonic weapons against there makers or work with cults to get to what he is looking for.

So, what Alignment and class should he be?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

LN Inquisitor.

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:
LN Inquisitor.

That's what I was thinking. 40k style radical Inquistor. would I be able to mix rogue or ranger into it?


Stannis Baratheon might do the trick as a dark broody LG character, if he is a paladin he might need an atonement every once in a while but still...

Silver Crusade

leo1925 wrote:
Stannis Baratheon might do the trick as a dark broody LG character, if he is a paladin he might need an atonement every once in a while but still...

Game of Thrones?


leo1925 wrote:
Stannis Baratheon might do the trick as a dark broody LG character, if he is a paladin he might need an atonement every once in a while but still...

Stannis defied the rightful king and then defied the usurper king.

Lawful he is not.


Well, he could be of any class and any alignment, depending on how you detail him. The only thing to note is that a Paladin (in case you consider playing that) wouldn't want to use evil-aligned weapons (besides, they aren't healty for any good character and aren't much effective against Demons) and maybe would throw some amount of purification even to a non-aligned Demon-forged/used weapon (despite the fact that, in terms of mechanics, such purification has no real purpose).

Actually, if you choose to play a Paladin with the weapon bond, the bonded weapon could be one of those you find in Pathfinder expeditions; it will grow in power with you.


@brent norton
Yes

@Adamantine Dragon
He dified the rightful king who was chaotic and brought order to the world (or was hoping to) by having another king who is not so mad and then he defied the userper king (a mad and stupid king) in order to protect the world*, bring stability to the realms and take what is rightfully his.

Lawful doesn't mean the laws of the men, it means order, it means exerting force to stop chaos and entropy.

Sure he might have slipped a few times on both the lawful and the good part and a few times even done very evil things but that's what the atonement spell is for.

*remember he thinks that he is the prince of the prophesy

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
brent norton wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
LN Inquisitor.
That's what I was thinking. 40k style radical Inquistor. would I be able to mix rogue or ranger into it?

An Inquisitor can do pretty much anything a ranger or rogue can do.

What do you want to focus on?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Samuel Vimes from Terry Pratchett's Discworld books is pretty LG...and pretty dark as well. No, wait, he's pretty much LG defined.


leo1925 wrote:

@brent norton

Yes

@Adamantine Dragon
He dified the rightful king who was chaotic and brought order to the world (or was hoping to) by having another king who is not so mad and then he defied the userper king (a mad and stupid king) in order to protect the world*, bring stability to the realms and take what is rightfully his.

Lawful doesn't mean the laws of the men, it means order, it means exerting force to stop chaos and entropy.

Sure he might have slipped a few times on both the lawful and the good part and a few times even done very evil things but that's what the atonement spell is for.

*remember he thinks that he is the prince of the prophesy

I'm with Leo on this. Stannis didn't revot against the mad king. He only refused to raise arms against his brother because kinslaying is considered the most vile of sins. He also never recognized Jaime Lannister's bastards as king, so he cannot defy a fake king. It is in fact unjust for Stannis to accept Cersei's children as royalty since they are, in fact, not royal.

Only real issue is whether stannis is technically good. I think he is, or at least he tries to be. He is certainly motivated to do the right thing... though of course he has his moral failures, but who would not be seduced by an attractive prophetess of the flame god (the literal definition of hot).

Also: The Grey Knights of 40k do work as a secretive, brooding LG because of the secrets they keep. 40k Death Watch could also be an extreme example of dark LG.

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:
brent norton wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
LN Inquisitor.
That's what I was thinking. 40k style radical Inquistor. would I be able to mix rogue or ranger into it?

An Inquisitor can do pretty much anything a ranger or rogue can do.

What do you want to focus on?

Thought on this, Inquistors who as part of a ritual tie themselves to outsiders to helpthem track objects and question the other realms. Inquistor/Summomer?

Silver Crusade

pobbes wrote:
but who would not be seduced by an attractive prophetess of the flame god (the literal definition of hot

Before or after learning that she was dark and full of terrors?


It is usually silly to try to describe literary figures in PF or D&D alignment terms. Stannis is a good example. His motivations, associations and actions are sufficient to argue convincingly that he is just about any alignment you want to pick. His association with the demon-spawning sorceress alone is enough to argue that he cannot possibly be "good."

As far as the best literary example of a dark version of Lawful Good as described in the PF rule books, I'll stick with "Dirty" Harry Callahan. If that doesn't work, I'll go with another Eastwood character, the "man with no name" from the "Spaghetti Westerns", especially "A Fistful of Dollars" where he rescues several innocent people and gives them food and money.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
brent norton wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
brent norton wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
LN Inquisitor.
That's what I was thinking. 40k style radical Inquistor. would I be able to mix rogue or ranger into it?

An Inquisitor can do pretty much anything a ranger or rogue can do.

What do you want to focus on?

Thought on this, Inquistors who as part of a ritual tie themselves to outsiders to helpthem track objects and question the other realms. Inquistor/Summomer?

A Samsaran Inquisitor with the Mystic Past Life alternate racial trait will have access to a number of spells to supplement the Divination spells already available to him. Perhaps a few summon spells as well.

Silver Crusade

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Speaking of Samsarans, combined with Umbral Reaver's concept of repentant orders:

A samsaran whose sequence of past lives has been spent trying to overcome the sins he commited in his first. Each life has been lived, and lost, trying to stop the things he set in motion in his first life. The person he once was is practically anathema to the person she wants to become, his own worst enemy. And he is good, but she has to look back and examine that darkness of what he once was in order to be ready and able to undo the damage she's already done. It's a character that has to constantly confront their own sins, own up to them, and overcome them, to transcend what he was and become something better.

Bonus points if he's burn into races and ethnicities that he may have caused the most pain or persecuted in his first life before having his epiphany. Though the samsaran angle does kind of get in the way of that....


Mikaze wrote:

Speaking of Samsarans, combined with Umbral Reaver's concept of repentant orders:

A samsaran whose sequence of past lives has been spent trying to overcome the sins he commited in his first. Each life has been lived, and lost, trying to stop the things he set in motion in his first life. The person he once was is practically anathema to the person she wants to become, his own worst enemy. And he is good, but she has to look back and examine that darkness of what he once was in order to be ready and able to undo the damage she's already done. It's a character that has to constantly confront their own sins, own up to them, and overcome them, to transcend what he was and become something better.

Bonus points if he's burn into races and ethnicities that he may have caused the most pain or persecuted in his first life before having his epiphany. Though the samsaran angle does kind of get in the way of that....

Nameless One?

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