| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps this is a silly question, but I notice that Paizo offers a lot of non-Paizo made products, such as Book of the River Nations. What is the general consensus on these books?
I don't mean in terms of quality, but are they generally accepted as part of the general Pathfinder canon? I'm trying to decide if they would fit as seamlessly into my game as the actual Paizo products (which, I assume, are made to fit together and by at least some of the same people).
Thanks for any info.
Thanks for the move to the right message board. Didn't see this section.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
3pp published products are not useable in Pathfinder Society games. Whether they count as canon in your home games is, of course, up to you. Book of the River Nations is an excellent book and is derived straight from Paizo published material. It should fit seamlessly into your game. As to any other material, that depends entirely on your game and your gaming style and the contents of any given book.
I would advise you, if you are interested in a particular type of book that you simply do your homework by reading the reviews, letting it be known what you are looking for and asking questions. Most of us author types are more than happy to talk about what we did, what choices we made and why we think it would or would not work with your particular game.
You might also just pick up a PDF here and there and look it over. For my part, let me offer you a free module to get started.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't had the chance to pick that one up yet, but I'm pretty sure that all of the River Nations material by Jon Brazer is designed to work with the Kingmaker adventure path. You can certainly find a lot of other setting-neutral supplements and adventures, but always read everything you can on it before buying. Most give a pretty good indication of the contents..
EDIT: doh!
Whereas none of the 3PP (third party publisher) material is official canon for society play, there are many, many great sources of material within the 3PPcommunity. I would second Wicht's advice, and do some reading up on a product if you are interested, check the reviews, contact the publisher/author. The really nice thing about the 3PP community in general is that most if not all of these folks are extremely approachable.
Thanks all, that really helped. And I appreciate the link, I will definitely check out the module.
I don't plan on being involved in any Society games, but I do try to stick to official content as much as possible for continuity purposes (and just to make it easier for me and clearer for my players).
If there are any particularly useful and compatible resources you like I would appreciate suggestions. If it helps, my general plan is to create my own town in Varisia and use that setting as the start to my campaign. Most players are new and I'm new to DMing and have only played Pathfinder a handful of times. Thanks again.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am always curious as to why a group or GM makes the decision to stick to "official" material, as opposed to utilizing the vast amount of excellent design available from other companies. Obviously it depends entirely upon a personal choice, and I promise I am not trying to judge, I just find it curious is all. A great deal of the individuals designing 3PP material do in fact have their names within several "official" Paizo products, and technically speaking, Paizo themselves were in fact a 3PP at one time, producing game material for 3.5 that evolved into the Pathfinder game system.
I would look into Rite publishing for a massive amount of source material as well as adventures, and the excellent Kaiden setting (Think old school KaraTur brought up to speed, and shot full of awesome). Perhaps Super Genius Games for an immense amount of cool new feats, spells, traits and such...
I can understand a GM wanting to limit the sheer amount of classes, as it can get overwhelming to just open the flood doors, but there are some fantastically designed potential additions to a game just waiting to be discovered.
A quick rundown of the companies I personally would recommend looking into (all of which I do believe offer some form of free material to let you get a look at what they are doing)
Rite
Super Genius Games
AdventureaWeek.com
TPK Games
Raging Swan
Also, there are two free e-magazines, Pathways by Rite publishing, and Wayfinder (not sure who handles them. Both can be found by searching Paizo's site, and they are both free, and filled with highly useful stuff that will give you a great look into the design chops of a lot of folks.
The thing I tell folks to remember is, even Paizo supports 3PP, which is one big stamp of approval as far as its credibility to the game table.
Joshua KTFish7 Gullion
|
|
If it helps, my general plan is to create my own town in Varisia and use that setting as the start to my campaign. Most players are new and I'm new to DMing and have only played Pathfinder a handful of times. Thanks again.
That helps for a handle on how to better advise you.
My advice would be that initially, with new players, stick to the core book for them. Don't flood them with 3pp options until they have a game or two under their belt.
As a fellow GM though, I would advise you to start with, in addition to the Core book and the first Bestiary,the Complete Tome of Horrors and Rite Publishings 101 Not-So-Simple Templates. You might also check out The Book of Monster Templates for some ideas. The Tome of Horrors should, in particular be high on your list of must-have books, especially if you plan on designing your own adventures. You will find Paizo authors themselves use it.
That should get you well on your way.
You might also, if I can plug one of my own offerings, check out Coliseum Morpheoun as a high level adventure to aim for, and possibly for some campaign ideas.
|
A great deal of the individuals designing 3PP material do in fact have their names within several "official" Paizo products
Greg A. Vaughan is the only writer to have written a volume for each one of Paizo's APs to date, I believe. He's also known for being a founding member of Frog God Games, and his recently completed magnum opus, The Slumbering Tsar Saga (published by Frog God Games).
I appreciate all the advice.
As to why I am trying to stick to "official" products... it's mostly an arbitrary line to provide clarity for the players. Right now we are all reading/learning Pathfinder and I just wanted to give some boundaries so we are all on the same page. I want to branch out myself when it comes to third-party content so that I can vet it. I can't imagine all third-party product flow with the "official" content as well as others.
I appreciate the suggestions. I will definitely be checking out the publishers mentioned and may spend tonight with 3 or 6 beers reading the 101 Not-So-Simple Templates because that sounds fun. I also think I'll throw down the cash for your Coliseum Morpheuon. I doubt my group will get there for a loooooong time, but you've been too helpful to not check out your writing. Plus it's just cool that actual authors post on the board. If you have any other writings that would apply to the lower levels let me know.
Thanks again all!
I am always curious as to why a group or GM makes the decision to stick to "official" material, as opposed to utilizing the vast amount of excellent design available from other companies. Obviously it depends entirely upon a personal choice, and I promise I am not trying to judge, I just find it curious is all. A great deal of the individuals designing 3PP material do in fact have their names within several "official" Paizo products, and technically speaking, Paizo themselves were in fact a 3PP at one time, producing game material for 3.5 that evolved into the Pathfinder game system.
In my case there are two main reasons:
The first is quality control. A book is more than just it's author and a company the size of paizo can be more thorough about maintaining high standards than a smaller publisher. (this is a general note, im sure there are poor paizo rules options and great ones from various 3PPs but I don't have the time or expertise to work out which is which, so a simple filter by company is an easy way to reduce the amount of allowed, poorly written options).
The second reason I use pretty much exclusively paizo products is my completist urges. I wouldn't be happy with picking up one book by a 3PP, I'd have to get their entire catalog. As such, it's going to be pretty unwieldy. I do have a relatively complete open design collection, but that's partly a function of admiration for the business model as much as because I plan on using it.
I also have zero interest in PDFs and an aversion to low production quality books. Again this isn't a universal truth, but 3PP products do not generally have the physical presence that the larger companies can muster.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I also have zero interest in PDFs and an aversion to low production quality books. Again this isn't a universal truth, but 3PP products do not generally have the physical presence that the larger companies can muster.
My copy of Slumbering Tsar ate all six volumes of Kingmaker.
Frog God Games are an exception, IMO - my leather bound rappan athuk copies are going to be rivals for pride of place with my RotRL collectors editions. :)
Some paizo products have low production values and some 3PP products are of stellar quality. As a rule-of-thumb filter though, only buying from the bigger companies is a pretty good way to minimize the risk of a book with wonky typesetting, faded print, spelling errors and a flimsy spine.
|
I will add to what the others have said and point out. A lot of the 3pp writers are also either Pathfinder freelancers like Greg Vaughn, Neal Spicer, or have freelanced for WotC back when they was still doing 3.5 edition. While most of the 3pp books are not as pretty as Pathfinder official stuff with a few exceptions namely Cerulean Seas Campaign setting which is a stunning book. But many of the 3pp are very well written and more than a few of them are written by the same people that have wrote "official" products.
Though as was suggested research the products, read reviews, ask questions to find the things you want and don't be afraid to buy a product and allow some stuff in it and not others. No works on players just as effectively as on kids, often accompanied by the same whining, crying and tantrums. :)
If you have any other writings that would apply to the lower levels let me know.
Well Wicht is also the author of Rite Publishing's Curse of the Golden Spear (link to part 1) trilogy of adventures for the Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting - my homebrew creation. It's a 3 adventure introductory mini-arc set in a feudal Japan/Asian horror setting for levels 5th, 6th and 7th for a party of 4 adventurers.
Plus there are race guides, faction guides, even a haunts book for Kaidan - the last book is by Trevor H. Gulliver, but the others are by Jonathan. We released Way of the Samurai, our most recent supplement at the end of May.
July 14th, we are starting a Kickstarter project to publish a GM's Handbook, Player's Guide and Bestiary all for the Kaidan setting.
Rite Publishing features lots more than just the Kaidan setting however - Coloseum Morpheuon, Jade Oath, Questhaven settings, plus the entire #30 series, 101 series and much more!
|
I am always curious as to why a group or GM makes the decision to stick to "official" material, as opposed to utilizing the vast amount of excellent design available from other companies. Obviously it depends entirely upon a personal choice, and I promise I am not trying to judge, I just find it curious is all.
As a VC, I GM PFS Organised Play sessions every weekend - that's a lot of sessions, and a lot of players, so obviously I'm going to want to keep up with all the official new releases. [argument for staying with Core]
Because I'm so involved with PFS organised play, on the rare occasion I'm playing a home game with friends, I want to spread my wings and try something different, such as non-core races or classes. [argument for trying third-party]
There are a lot of creative people and companies putting out good work for Pathfinder RPG, and I think this demonstrates the stregth of the system that it can support such a broad range of character, campaign and story ideas, themes and styles.
However, my home GM is a traditionalist and wants to stick to org play rules, which I think is a great idea - 20-point buy, 150 starting gold, average hps etc, help to maintain a level playing field with which everyone is familiar, I'm even okay with the various restrictions in the Additional Resources page, they're there for good reason.
I think new players/GMs particuarly should learn the Core before branching out. GMs are within their rights to say sorry, that concept doesn't really fit into my campaign, or to restrict character options to sources they're familiar with. If you want to play a new race, class or archetype, talk to your GM about it first, and ordering him a copy of the product may also help your cause.
I build for character background and flavour, I'm not seeking additional content to optimise my character build or "win" the game. I'm looking for ideas to inspire me - see a race or class in a new light, as archetypes often do, or the ARG is as I'm currently reading through it.
I do recommend reading product reviews and messageboard threads to judge if a product suits your needs. While there are some great creative ideas out there, it is true that some may not match your style. Take ENWorld's review of the Slumbering Tsar Saga as an example:
In terms of power level and lethality, Slumbering Tsar is Greg Vaughan at his most "over the top". Quite frankly, potential TPKs lurk almost everywhere and frequent character deaths are not simply possible -- they are probable. There are eight pages of a blank Obituary chart included at the end of the book just to record character deaths. While this is a bit of a prank by the author for the .PDF version, the point is well taken: this thing is deadly.
This style might excite power-gamers, or GM egos comparing their kill-counts, but it's not the kind of game I enjoy playing, and certianly doesn't impress me. For the price of such a behemoth product, I was ready to walk away.
It reminds me of D&D's dirty little secret - dragons were deliberately designed higher than their CR, because WotC wanted encounters with their game's namesake to be nail-biting challenges! But CR has a purpose. If you want a nail-biting challenge, you're supposed to design an encounter with a higher CR, dragon or halfling, it makes no difference. Once you mess with that assumption, unsuspecting GMs buildig a high CR dragon encounter will easily TPK their group if unaware of this change. Don't sabotage the games assumed mechanics.
However, two points in ENWorld's review made me reconsider ...
Vaughan uses a lot of monsters from Paizo's various Bestiary products throughout Slumbering Tsar. However, just as often, Vaughan is using a monster from the Tome of Horrors Complete (each stat block is reproduced in Slumbering Tsar so you do not have to have TOHC to play). There are other "go-to" books constantly referred to by Vaughan throughout the Saga. For example. Creature Collection Volumes I,II and III make frequent appearances throughout - with each stat block updated to Pathfinder RPG format by Vaughan. This approach greatly adds to the utility of the work and makes Slumbering Tsar as much a Pathfinder Bestiary as any bestiary product on the market.
I love monster books, and have each of the volumes referred to. It's nice to see third-party creatures given context and brought to life in an adventure such as this, rather than remain museum exhibits on the shelves of my bookcase. That's the spirit of the Open Game Licence.
Some of these NPCs are monsters with strong motivations and backgrounds. Others are humanoids detailed as you might expect them to be in an issue of Pathfinder Adventure Path. Other times, the monster is templated or has class levels added to it together with a backstory and character history which makes all the difference. What would otherwise be an encounter with a nameless, faceless monster in most books becomes an epic showdown with a NPC who simply happens to BE a monster in Slumbering Tsar. This approach has been tried before and has literally been around for decades (Lord Soth is a classic example). However, I don't think I have ever seen this design philosophy resorted to as consistently -- or as extensively -- as Vaughan does in The Slumbering Tsar.
THIS is what woooed me into buying the product, as I enjoy roleplaying encounters, this very much suits my style.
As for the challenge rating? Well, forewarned is forearmed, and maybe I can run my my group a level above recommended.
My point being, reviews and feedback ARE important, and always help me select between third-party products (thanks Dark_Mistress!)
One more thing that helps me decide whether or not to purhcase a third-party product is whether or not it has a Print/PDF Bundle available here at the Paizo store so a) I can combine overseas shipping; and b) all my downloads are in one place. 0one Games The Road to Redemption Campaign looks interesting, but until it's available as a Print/PDF Bundle here at the Paizo store, it'll languish on my Wishlist.
A great deal of the individuals designing 3PP material do in fact have their names within several "official" Paizo products, and technically speaking, Paizo themselves were in fact a 3PP at one time, producing game material for 3.5 that evolved into the Pathfinder game system.
I GMed Burnt Offerings (Rise of the Runelords, Chapter One) when it was first released, but Pathfinder RPG was in Beta, and none of the various Pathfinder supplements we take for granted today were available then. I allowed my players to draw from other 3.5 sources for their character options, including Raptorans (winged elves) from WotC's Races of the Wild, and wove this race into the eternal struggle between Desna and Lamashtu - Raptorans being the chosen of Desna, and Harpies being Raptorans corrupted by Lamashtu. This is a fine example of working third-party content seamlessly into your campaign.
When RotRL Anniversary Edition arrives, I'm giving some serious thought to GMing it and allowing only third-party character options, taking the time to integrate these ideas into the campaign background, hopefully to highlight some of the great content available, and to help dispel the myth that third-party content is going to somehow break your game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
July 14th, we are starting a Kickstarter project to publish a GM's Handbook, Player's Guide and Bestiary all for the Kaidan setting.
I have marked the calendar and am preparing funds now.
My players just started into Kaidan and the Curse of the Golden Spear and we're all loving it. I'll happily fund these books!
If you think that's scary, just wait until you get to the Haunted Ryokan! I'm glad you like it so far - keep us up on your progress.
I've decided to start with the Godsmouth Heresy, but only after having my group explore the city I build and run into some not-so-random-encounters (urban). I read through some of the Coliseum Morpheuon last night and I have to say it's incredibly well-written. It's obvious you had a good time crafting it.
Two specific things I'm looking for now that I have this 3PP issue sorted for myself:
1) I want to build a city in Varisia of my own creation. Any materials to guide me or to make it easier would be much appreciated. I plan on spending a few weeks on it because it will be the most fun for me as I prep for the players.
2) New races. I am still telling the players to focus on core books, but I know each of them very well (all friends or family) and I would like to see if I can find different races for them to play based on their interests. So any resource that might provide me with well-developed non-standard races would be great.
Also, on a side note, as I get more involved with Pathfinder (on the boards and through reading), I notice that it reminds me way more of the AD&D days than anything else. More creativity and "badassness." In comparison I have found the last few editions of D&D to be bland with an attempt to sand down the edges from the game. Which is unfortunate because the edges are the best part.
Finally, reading about Slumbering Tsar reminds me of the hilarious TPK stories and crazy deadly adventures sometimes found in the Knights of the Dinner Table comic, haha.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rite
Super Genius Games
AdventureaWeek.com
TPK Games
Raging Swan
I, too, recommend Rite Publishing and Super Genius Games, as well as Open Design and Dreamscarred Press (if you are into psionics).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I, too, recommend Rite Publishing and Super Genius Games, as well as Open Design and Dreamscarred Press (if you are into psionics).
Aarrgghhh, Wolfgang and Shelly are gonna kill me, I can't believe I left Open Design off of the list, lol. And yes, quite right, if you are looking for the definitive word on psionics in regards to the Pathfinder ruleset, Dreamscarred Press is the place to look.
Here's my post about this similar topic, complete with links and examples
I used to be hesitant about 3pp because many in the 3.5 days weren't very good. I think at the time I only really liked the now defunct Necromancer Games. But I've opened up more to the 3PP, especially the ones that work with Paizo (like Greg A Vaughn of Frog God Games or Owen C Stephens of Super Genius Games).
|
I, too, recommend Rite Publishing and Super Genius Games, as well as Open Design and Dreamscarred Press (if you are into psionics).Aarrgghhh, Wolfgang and Shelly are gonna kill me, I can't believe I left Open Design off of the list, lol.
Ha! There are some spell-less rangers, white necromancers, beast leaders and shaman that might want a word or three with you as well ;P
Am quickly realizing there are many many great companies that belong on a short list of this nature, and there is no way I am going to remember to put them all up here, lol. So, no harm, no foul, lol. Now Marc, if you would be so kind, the dude...in my tree...with the bow...yeah, call him...soon....
Funny thing about me forgetting Frog God Games is I was just filling out my survey for the Rappan Athuk Survey, I can't believe I forgot them, lol.
|
|
1) I want to build a city in Varisia of my own creation. Any materials to guide me or to make it easier would be much appreciated. I plan on spending a few weeks on it because it will be the most fun for me as I prep for the players.
I would recommend Paizo's own Gamemaster's Guide for city building rules. Gives you a method for a rough overview of the city and then you can go from there adding in details.
2) New races. I am still telling the players to focus on core books, but I know each of them very well (all friends or family) and I would like to see if I can find different races for them to play based on their interests. So any resource that might provide me with well-developed non-standard races would be great.
There are quite a few race options out there. There is the newly released racial book from Paizo, which I've only glanced through thus far due to time constraints. Rite has released race books for giants, gargoyles, minotaurs, tengu, kappa, henge, lurkers, and ironborn. Several other companies have other race books out as well, each following a different style and format, though I am a bit biased towards the format Steve started with the Rite books with the racial paragon classes being the capstone of most of the books. The best thing to do is figure out what sort of race you might want and then see who has written on it. If no one has, make a request of one of the publishers and see what happens.
|
|
I've decided to start with the Godsmouth Heresy, but only after having my group explore the city I build and run into some not-so-random-encounters (urban). I read through some of the Coliseum Morpheuon last night and I have to say it's incredibly well-written. It's obvious you had a good time crafting it.
This is a good choice, in so much as Godsmouth Heresy is set beneath Kaer Maga, City of Strangers, that already has a very cool sourcebook that describes the city. It is also a city of outcasts, including tieflings, half-breeds, nagas, trolls and stranger creatures, which might suit your next question about non-standard races.
You might also want to check out PFS Scenarios City of Strangers - Part I: The Shadow Gambit and Part II: The Twofold Demise both can be run for level 1-7 characters.
The great thing about starting your campaign in Varisia is that there is already good support for the region in other products, such as:
Korvosa - Guide to Korvosa
Magnimar - Dawn of the Scarlet Son 5th-level Free RPG Day module, Magnimar, City of Monuments
The following Adventure Paths begin in Varisian cities, and contain articles detailing those locations: Rise of the Runelords (Sandpoint, Magnimar and other locations), Curse of the Crimson Throne (Korvosa), Second Darkness (begins in Riddleport), Jade Regent (begins in Sandpoint), Shattered Star (Magnimar, Kaer Maga, Windsong Abbey). There are free Player Guides for Rise of the Runelords and Anniversary Edition, Crimson Throne, Jade Regent.
And your players might like to keep their eye out for Player Companion: Varisia, Birthplace of Legends releasing next month (Aug 2012).
Two specific things I'm looking for now that I have this 3PP issue sorted for myself:
1) I want to build a city in Varisia of my own creation. Any materials to guide me or to make it easier would be much appreciated. I plan on spending a few weeks on it because it will be the most fun for me as I prep for the players.
While not third-party, I'd recommend checking out some of the Pathfinder products linked above, particularly the free downloads, as they may contain some useful content, such as regional maps, and enough background of Varisian locations to decide where you might want to place your new city. Also don't dismiss the idea of picking up an existing city and breathing your own life into it, as half the hard work has been done, providing you a framework to expand with your own ideas.
2) New races. I am still telling the players to focus on core books, but I know each of them very well (all friends or family) and I would like to see if I can find different races for them to play based on their interests. So any resource that might provide me with well-developed non-standard races would be great.
Re new races, you really can't go past the Advanced Race Guide. It more fully describes every creature from Bestiary I, II or III that is followed by racial abilities for playing as a PC race.
The ARG also contains a system for building your own races. Even if you start with a race from a third-party product that has the background you're after, but the mechanics don't quite fit, you can use it as a base to inspire and direct your choices using the race builder.
Super Genius Games have a selection of Races. I'm currently playing a Chelish character who was always teased for being the bastard Tiefling son of some devil, but his mum told him she was seduced by a Satyr when on a Pathfinder mission in the Mwangi jungle. He knows in his heart he's a half-Satyr (Piper from Races of Hoof and Horn) so he's now on a journey to the Mwangi Expanse to prove it (Serpent's Skull Adventure Path). If you hurry, Super Genius Games currently have a 50% off "can't make it to PaizoCon" sale on all their PDFs.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Super Genius Games have a selection of Races. I'm currently playing a Chelish character who was always teased for being the bastard Tiefling son of some devil, but his mum told him she was seduced by a Satyr when on a Pathfinder mission in the Mwangi jungle. He knows in his heart he's a half-Satyr (Piper from Races of Hoof and Horn) so he's now on a journey to the Mwangi Expanse to prove it (Serpent's Skull Adventure Path). If you hurry, Super Genius Games currently have a 50% off "can't make it to PaizoCon" sale on all their PDFs.
I'll second SGG in general, and their races stuff in particular, as really good and worth getting. They have great crunch in a lot of formats, and it's all broken up by topic, so if you want more battle options you pick up Feats of Battle, if you want more morally ambiguous PCs you pick up The Death Knight. And get all their Bullet Points -- theyre worth it.
In short, SGG can help build a campaign world by giving you rules that inspire plots, which is awesome.
Then I'd recommend Dreamscarred if you want Psionics. Rite if you want big lists of new spells or monsters with their own 20-level classes. Open Design if they cover a topic SGG or Rite haven't already. And Jon Brazer if you want stuff that ties into Kingmaker or Shackled Skull.
And while I've already mentioned SGG, their Super Genius Games Presents line of books deserve their own mention. Unlike the more crunch-heavy SGG books, these have awesome abckground amterial. The rules to support it are rock-solid too, of course, but if you want vile bad guys, dragonfolk, pirate drinking games, and a history of magic and how it ties into the three power words in the core rules, these are for you! You could build a whole campaign from these elements.
I just want to say thank you to Dungeon Grrrl and anyone else that mentioned Jon Brazer Enterprises, my company.
Just want to point out that Super Genius Games is currently selling all their stuff at 50% off. Most of their stuff is already inexpensive and of very high quality. Their Bullet Points are normally only a buck. Now you can buy twice as many for that price.