Different player organizations should have the right to ban certain archetypes and races as they see fit: After all, a clan of elf hunters should be free of elves. A clan of evil Necromancers should be free of paladins and positive energy clerics. A tree hugger faction should be able to function by using druids in favor of other casters and primitive barbarians in place of their cosmopolitan and well armored fighter counterparts.
I don't think anyone will disagree with me that this type of selection may happen, but I'm here to argue that it shouldn't be penalized in game- In other words, this sort of "selective" clan style shouldn't be inherently weaker than a clan where everyone's invited.
My fear is that every (or virtually every) class will be NEEDED by a clan: Good clerics and paladins for healing, paladins for killing evil opponents, wizards and sorcerers for save or suck spells.
This kind of system reminds me of world of warcraft, and I really don't like it. I believe a clan should be able to function without every class role covered.
In short, I guess I'm issuing a plea to goblinworks: Please keep any one class from monopolizing any ubiquitous and oft needed role. A druid should be able to heal fairly well in a village that has banned traditional clerics. A heavily armored company that bans squishy cloth casters and monks should be able to overcome their weakness with potent cleric magic and good old fashioned sword fighting. A game where all 11 classes are needed by every company is a game that misses the point: Heroes and villains, city dwellers and country folk, skirmishers and heavy infantry, these different peoples look differently and fight differently from each other.
Goblin Squad Member
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What is this "clan" you speak of? Are you talking a party or a chartered company?
I'd think some people may choose to group as a archetype-pure company, like a crafting or professional guild. Companies that are geared towards combat or settlement will be stronger if they have a mix of archetypes, just as a military unit that includes cavalry, pikemen, and archers is stronger than a pure unit of any of those. That doesn't mean they will have all 11 archetypes, but they'll have more than one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I 100% agree on the idea of no 1 class monopolizing any roles, or even any role being 100% necessary for most dungeons, quests etc... (though I don't mind a handful of exceptions, just greatly oppose it being a majority). The good news is goblinworks themselves seems to agree on this. They have mentioned a few times that they intend to avoid the trinity to the best of their ability.
I do actually hope for some sort of support for sub-groups. Similar to how thornkeep is described in the blog.
After settling the Baron's role and nature to my satisfaction, I refined my list of factions just a little bit. I wanted to make sure there was something appealing for each character I could imagine beginning a campaign in Thornkeep. For example, I imagine that many barbarian characters will want to be from Thornkeep, so I made sure that a local barbarian tribe was represented—the Wolfmanes, a clan of Kellid barbarians living in the Echo Wood. The Goblinworks team is naturally jazzed about the idea of featuring goblins in the game, so we kicked around some ideas for a goblin tribe living right underfoot and why the humans of Thornkeep might tolerate that. This gave us the idea for the Brambleclaw Tribe, the wretched survivors of the great goblin Kingdom of Zog, and the potential for ruined goblin strongholds and castles scattered throughout the Echo Wood. A classic thieves' guild was a must, so the Three Daggers joined the mix, a gang of thugs and brigands extorting protection from half the common folk in the town. And a mercenary company supports a variety of different character types, so the Blue Basilisk Company took shape as a place where anyone can find a job. There are other organizations, but I'll stop there; we want to keep a few surprises!
Basically several orders, groups etc... are within the city of thornkep, but thornkeep itself is 1 city under 1 leadership, but each of the subgroups, could be viewed as clans or whatever you want to call them. If thornkeep goes to war, all of those groups would be on the same side if they chose to participate, yet they also are more or less their own inner circles. This sort of thing I'm hoping there is an in game system within kingdom creation to make.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I first started reading this I was thinking "If you don't want them in your company, don't let them in!!!" but after reading this I see your point. No class or role should be so essential a company cannot do without if their roleplay hinges on it.
I do agree to a point. I think making it so that you can run a company of all paladins or monks shouldn't be effective unless the idea is that you send your monks/paladins out to help more mixed groups. But I fully agree that a good aligned clan should not need evil players, an evil aligned clan should not need good players, and no single class or race should be so indispensable that you can't do without.
If I want to say, "We are chaotic evil, we only accept chaotic evil, so no paladins, no druids, and no good aligned clerics!!!" We should be able to do so.
If I want to say "We are lawful neutral conceited elves so no barbarians, rouges, or non-elves" I say more power too them... damn stuck up elves. Grow a beard sissies!!! *Storms off to find some dwarves to share a pint with*
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree with this. We are going to get into the homogenized, solo, one person can do everything type game again. My own opinion is that everyone should be able to train whichever skill they want but that not everyone should be able to do all things equally as well. A character that specializes in the healing arts should be better at them than one that doesn't. And in certain group situations the better healer should be necessary, or the better lockpick, or the better crowd controller, etc.
I also think the world should be dangerous enough that grouping with these specialized individuals will be a necessary thing. If one wants a clan of only elves and barbarians, perhaps some of those elves and barbarians should train in the healing arts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to agree with Misere, the last thing I want to see is everyone able to do everything (at a high skill), even if it does take them a long time.
Ryan has stated previously that the game is going to be designed to work with others, as it is a MMO. Quoting him directly:
Just remember our goal: "Maximize meaningful human interaction"
That was used on a different topic, in regards to combat, but I feel they are going to apply it to all aspects of the game. And if you've read the blogs, Ryan has made it clear that PFO is heading in the direction, where yes, you could solo to an extent, but you are going to need to work with others to do things most effectively.
I've said this in another thread, but I feel that archtypes will share skills to a certain extent.
Like for example, a Wizard may have the 'Shield' skill in his skill tree, but it probably only will be for bucklers, or maybe even small shields. Also, the Wizard will most likely not be able to go to the highest skill tier for shields. Where a Fighter will have 'all' the different type of 'Shield' skills and will also be able to go to the max skill tier.
This is of course only a guess on my part, as none of this has been confirmed. But I think (and hope) it will work something along like this.