.
So, an adept gains a familiar once she hits level 2. What are the familiar's abilities based on?
Her full level (as she has a class that grants a familiar)?
Her level-1 (as she doen't gain the familiar right away)?
.
Next question, let's assume she likes to obtain a shiny new quasit familiar. No problem, the feat Improved familiar can do just that... umm... the prerequisites for an Improved Familiar, any Improved Familiar read 'Arcane Caster Level'. Unfortunately, our Adept is regarded a divine caster.
So, would one count her as 'arcane' for purposes of acquiring a familiar... or is she pretty much royally screwed?
Last but not least (this one is not a rules question)... why are so very few Adepts in the existing adventures? Most low level adventures sport experts galore, warriors up the wazoo... but I cannot recall a single adept in all the APs I know.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Following the link in the PRD from the adept leading to the section Wizard/Familiar and reading the table, it becomes clear that the familiar's abilities are based upon the adept's full level. The table talks about Master Class Level, so it doesn't matter when the adept becomes eligible to a familiar (it's similar to a paladin choosing to bond with an animal at lvl 5).
Since the entry in the PRD talks about the adept being a divine caster and NPC classes are supposed to be weaker than PC classes, she is not able to gain an improved familiar by game mechanics.
Having said all this, I still like the adept. It can never be the uber adversary, but when have you ever given a villanious NPC NPC class levels to stand any chance against a group of 4+ adventurers?
I usually play them as the gruffy old lady/lord, usually unkempt and totally absorbed in what they're doing and/or representing, a little insane, too. In my games I use them as a little comic relief between all the hardships I throw in earnest against the PCs.
Ruyan.
I think they can make great second teir problems or a weird village priest/ wise man/woman. Also can be used as an extra NPC class level to things like an orc or goblin to give then a sort of light prest/ warror as a sub leader for a gang or tribe.
.
So, an adept gains a familiar once she hits level 2. What are the familiar's abilities based on?
Her full level (as she has a class that grants a familiar)?
Her level-1 (as she doen't gain the familiar right away)?
.
Next question, let's assume she likes to obtain a shiny new quasit familiar. No problem, the feat Improved familiar can do just that... umm... the prerequisites for an Improved Familiar, any Improved Familiar read 'Arcane Caster Level'. Unfortunately, our Adept is regarded a divine caster.
So, would one count her as 'arcane' for purposes of acquiring a familiar... or is she pretty much royally screwed?Last but not least (this one is not a rules question)... why are so very few Adepts in the existing adventures? Most low level adventures sport experts galore, warriors up the wazoo... but I cannot recall a single adept in all the APs I know.
I love adepts. As an NPC class, I've always been under the impression (partially due to how the spread of classes is actually spread out based on the 3.x rules) that Adepts are supposed to be more common than heroic characters, and are more akin to warriors and experts in terms of frequency.
In my games, adepts (and warriors, experts, and aristocrats) are frequent. Very frequent. Most of the normal jobs and roles are covered by these classes. Adepts are the most frequent artisans of magical goods, since they can easily produce most magic items as early as 3rd level (which a very mundane level of character, given that they only have 3d6 HD, a +1 BAB, +1 Fort/Ref, +3 will, 6 skill points, and a familiar). If you go to most temples, it will be adepts providing common services. Most hedge wizards will be adepts. Most shamans, healers, and even "priests" will be adepts.
From a mechanical standpoint, dropping a level or two of adept on an NPC grants a nice saving throw boost to will and opens up a lot of spells via wand usage. Two levels adds +1 CR, gives +2d6 HD, +1 BAB, +3 will, and a familiar. Familiars have HP and statistics based on their master's total; so a brute enemy with 2 levels of adept will have 1/2 the brute's total HP and use the owner's saves.
From an encounter standpoint, adepts can actually be quite challenging. NPC classes add +1 CR for every 2. A 9 HD adept is around CR 4, but might drop a 9d6 lightning bolt as his "big attack". Admittedly the save DC is probably quite low, but they do have some pretty cool spells and a caster level vs CR advantage in their favor.
You know, I've always wanted to run a short one-off Zombie apocalypse game, using only NPC classes. Thanks, Ashiel, for reminding me that NPC classes increase CR by 1 per 2 levels. I could totally feel justified by tossing a group of 10th level NPC class people, against a hoard of zombies.
Erm... wasn't that 1 CR per 2 levels thing a 3.5 rule? IIRC, PF did something along a CR = Level-2 thing...
(Actually, I do not consider making a commoner the same CR as a Warrior, or Adept of the same level a good thing... but that may just be me...)
I use them a lot. Had no idea they were the least loved.
You know, I've always wanted to run a short one-off Zombie apocalypse game, using only NPC classes. Thanks, Ashiel, for reminding me that NPC classes increase CR by 1 per 2 levels. I could totally feel justified by tossing a group of 10th level NPC class people, against a hoard of zombies.
I've done this exact thing. I ran a zombie apocolypse game and all the PCs played warriors, experts, and adepts. I gave them some extra bonus feats to round out their characters with though. In some ways, it was a bit like fallout 3 (I gave them a bonus feat every even level, so they got 1 feat every level). It was fun actually, and a nice change of pace.
Erm... wasn't that 1 CR per 2 levels thing a 3.5 rule? IIRC, PF did something along a CR = Level-2 thing...
(Actually, I do not consider making a commoner the same CR as a Warrior, or Adept of the same level a good thing... but that may just be me...)
Nope, it's still alive and well. Check the Bestiary. When advancing creatures, add +1 CR for every 2 NPC class levels. Now some argue that's only for monsters with racial HD but honestly a gnoll with 8 warrior HD is CR 5, so why would a human with 9 warrior HD be CR 7?
The problem is the core rulebook gives very bad rules for advancing NPCs, and those rules are only mentioned in the Gamemastering section, and don't line up with the way everything is supposed to run. It's not as bad with PC-classed NPCs, but falls all apart with NPC classed ones. For example...
The Core Rulebook would have the CR of the NPC be level -1 (PC classed) or level -2 (NPC classed). You would then give them gear based on their class level (on the chart). This works great right up until about 3rd level, and then it all goes to hell.
Firstly, you're setting the CR to level-1 for a PC classed character, but giving them treasure for a CR equal to their level. Already this is a math error, because you're basically giving them CR+1 equipment. Now NPC classed characters are CR = level-2, but have wealth -1, so now you have an enemy that is weaker than a CR+1, but has the same treasure.
Then there is the fact the scaling is terrible. Build a 10th level warrior NPC using Core Rulebook method. It would tell you that this pitiful 3 point buy NPC is a CR 8 encounter, with CR 9 treasure. Now compare it to any CR 8, or hell even CR 4 enemies in the Bestiary. It doesn't take long to realize they are woefully over-treasured and under-powered. Your NPC exists as a walking "Monty Haul". It's like the secret joke enemies in some video game RPGs who are really weak but strangely give out tons of XP and treasure when you kill them.
Now go back and rebuild the NPC using the Bestiary rules. The bestiary rules would have you set his CR at around CR 4-5, with appropriate NPC gear based on CR (in other words, the same wealth as a level 4-5 heroic NPC). The result is an NPC who is of similar power and capability to other NPCs in the bestiary of the same CR, and likewise gives them reasonable treasure values.
The Bestiary also provides rules for multiclassed NPCs. For example, the core rulebook breaks down if you try to ask it what the CR for a Fighter 2 / Adept 2 is. The Bestiary says it's CR 2, and that's about right by my estimates as well.
The bestiary rules are more accurate and have been working for ages (it's more or less the 3.x method). Now that being said, commoners are the class that throws a monkey wrench into it. In both systems commoners mess things up (but at least the bestiary is a bit more fair about it, as the core rulebook would set a 12th level commoner as a CR 10 with CR 11 treasure, which is a sick joke). If you actually want a good guideline, commoner HD add +1 CR for about every 4 levels you add (every 4 levels is +2 BAB, +4d6 HP, +1.3 saves). Rolling up a 20 HD commoner results in roughly a CR 5 enemy. No joke. Only about 70 HP baseline, +10 to hit, +6 to saves. The most optimized the lil' guy could get would be optimizing HP (toughness and emphasizing Con with his 3 PB), and that would just turn him into a damage sponge with a terrible AC.
Ugh.
I don't want to redo all my NPC's. You shouldn't have said all that.
Ugh.
I don't want to redo all my NPC's. You shouldn't have said all that.
Heh. Well if it makes you happier, the core rulebook method isn't so terrible when it's only dealing with PC-classed NPCs. In that case, it only gives them too much gear (CR+1 gear actually). Not the end of the world. It really falls apart with NPC classed enemies though. >.>
It shouldn't be that hard. I find it actually makes it easier for me to produce NPCs quickly with a calculator. It's very easy to acquire their core statistics on the fly and know it's about the right CR.
For example, if I want a CR 6 warrior, I take the base warrior 1 (let's say a human) who is less than CR 1, then add 12 warrior levels. The result is 13d10 HD, +13/+8/+3 BAB, +8 Fort, +4 Ref, +4 Will, and 3 skills at 13 ranks. Throw on some feats, apply ability modifiers, and gear 'em with 4,650 gp. Done deal, and he or she comes out great for a CR 6 NPC.
I've made scores of NPC-classed enemies in the last few weeks using the "Creating NPC's" rules from core. The wealth from Table: NPC Gear just felt wrong to me so I treated them all as one level lower (and the ones with Heroic stat array as Basic).
Maybe that was a good instinct.
I made A LOT of NPC's this way. Like for example, an entire cult with different levels in adept to represent different degrees of initiation, and different feat selections to represent different roles. Even made all the females different then the males (more powerful).
I really want them balanced too, and giving out too much treasure and xp would break my campaign. Very sandboxy hexcrawl thing I'm doing.
Cringe.
I've made scores of NPC-classed enemies in the last few weeks using the "Creating NPC's" rules from core. The wealth from Table: NPC Gear just felt wrong to me so I treated them all as one level lower (and the ones with Heroic stat array as Basic).
Maybe that was a good instinct.I made A LOT of NPC's this way. Like for example, an entire cult with different levels in adept to represent different degrees of initiation, and different feat selections to represent different roles. Even made all the females different then the males (more powerful).
I really want them balanced too, and giving out too much treasure and xp would break my campaign. Very sandboxy hexcrawl thing I'm doing.
Cringe.
Yeah, sounds like you have good instincts indeed. I'm fairly certain that it wouldn't be that hard to modify them. All you should need to do is tweak their CR a little and their gear. Worse case scenario you get to add more low-powered NPCs to make a larger (and more epic) encounter, or you drop a couple hit dice on your bosses to bring them in line.
For example, if you've got a cultist adept who you want to be CR 6, and you made her 4 HD (more like CR 2), just drop some more levels on her until she hits the correct CR. It'll just be some +1s here and some +2s there. :)
I just opened Hero Lab to see what I did with 1st level mooks and I have 90 of them with nothing but a dagger and one potion, so I guess I intuited some of the logic of what you are saying. Even the High Priestess and the Half-Fiend Spirit Naga with class levels who they worship has NPC gear, not PC gear, despite JJ's advice to give bosses PC gear.
So maybe I can get away with running this cult as is, and doing it your way from here on out. You think?
I just opened Hero Lab to see what I did with 1st level mooks and I have 90 of them with nothing but a dagger and one potion, so I guess I intuited some of the logic of what you are saying. Even the High Priestess and the Half-Fiend Spirit Naga with class levels who they worship has NPC gear, not PC gear, despite JJ's advice to give bosses PC gear.
So maybe I can get away with running this cult as is, and doing it your way from here on out. You think?
Err, now I'm confused. It actually sounds like you have less gear than expected. A 1st level NPC generally has 260 gp worth of goods minimum. A dagger + 1 potion sounds more like 51 gp. O.o
I would recommend against giving bosses PC gear. I would recommend against it greatly. Heroic NPC gear appropriate to their CR is plenty if your NPCs are fairly smart or work as teams. If you need to add a bit more punch or durability to an NPC for a boss battle, NPC classes are your friend. For example, if you have a 5th level Fighter (CR 4) and want to make him CR 6 for a boss encounter, add 4 levels of warrior. CR goes up by 2, but he gets +4 HD, +4 fortitude, +1 reflex and will, and +4 BAB.
As for getting away with it and doing differently later, yeah you probably could. Sometimes you can eyeball equipment and such. Fixing gear on the fly is probably the easiest thing to do. In fact, if you make a gear list you can generate equipment on NPCs as soon as you introduce them.
For example, make a list of items that cost about the same amount, then you can just grab items from that list when you spawn them into the game. So if your party encounters 4 CR 1/3 adept cultists, you know each has 260 gp of gear, so you look on your list that looks like this:
25 gp Items: 0-level potion, 1st level scroll, 2 acid flasks, 2 smokesticks
50 gp Items: 1st level potion, CL 2 1st level scroll, 2 alchemist fires and 1 acid flask, 5 acid flasks, 1 tanglefoot bag
100 gp Items: CL 4 1st level scroll, CL 2 1st level potion
Each adept could have the same standard issue gear (say longspears + studded leather armor or 30 gp) and then you could "spend" the remaining 230 gp, so adept #1 has a collection of 1st level scrolls, adept #2 has a mixture of potions and alchemical goodies, and so forth. You can make grander lists with all sorts of items to use as a quick reference.
Right an Adept 1 has 260 GP, but I treated everything as one level lower on the NPC Weath table, so where did that leave an Adept 1? I couldn't remember so I checked my work in Hero Hab, and it looks like I gave them almost no gear, and great numbers, making them a balancing factor. They can add difficulty without making the party too rich.
I like the Adept also.
What does everyone here do to update the Adept (if anything)?
In example, do you give them reusable Orisions? Do you add to the Adept's spell list?
Do you use alternative Adepts like those from Frost & Fur or Mongoose's Ultimate NPC? (I know these are old but they are all that I can think of.)
I just give them more levels simple as that. Keeps them simple to run, without the PCs seeing how little is going on behind the curtain.
Likewise I used to think they were easy to generate and balance.
Then this thread happened (-_-)
Well adept does have arcane spells too. It's an arcane/divine blend.
Ugh.
I don't want to redo all my NPC's. You shouldn't have said all that.
Heh. Well if it makes you happier, the core rulebook method isn't so terrible when it's only dealing with PC-classed NPCs. In that case, it only gives them too much gear (CR+1 gear actually). Not the end of the world. It really falls apart with NPC classed enemies though. >.>
It shouldn't be that hard. I find it actually makes it easier for me to produce NPCs quickly with a calculator. It's very easy to acquire their core statistics on the fly and know it's about the right CR.
For example, if I want a CR 6 warrior, I take the base warrior 1 (let's say a human) who is less than CR 1, then add 12 warrior levels. The result is 13d10 HD, +13/+8/+3 BAB, +8 Fort, +4 Ref, +4 Will, and 3 skills at 13 ranks. Throw on some feats, apply ability modifiers, and gear 'em with 4,650 gp. Done deal, and he or she comes out great for a CR 6 NPC.
Wrong a level 13 human warroir is CR 11.
Races with no hit dice are CR equal to PC class level -1 or NPC class level -2.
Adding NPC class level to monster with hit dice is +1 CR per class level.
Ugh.
I don't want to redo all my NPC's. You shouldn't have said all that.
Heh. Well if it makes you happier, the core rulebook method isn't so terrible when it's only dealing with PC-classed NPCs. In that case, it only gives them too much gear (CR+1 gear actually). Not the end of the world. It really falls apart with NPC classed enemies though. >.>
It shouldn't be that hard. I find it actually makes it easier for me to produce NPCs quickly with a calculator. It's very easy to acquire their core statistics on the fly and know it's about the right CR.
For example, if I want a CR 6 warrior, I take the base warrior 1 (let's say a human) who is less than CR 1, then add 12 warrior levels. The result is 13d10 HD, +13/+8/+3 BAB, +8 Fort, +4 Ref, +4 Will, and 3 skills at 13 ranks. Throw on some feats, apply ability modifiers, and gear 'em with 4,650 gp. Done deal, and he or she comes out great for a CR 6 NPC.
Wrong a level 13 human warroir is CR 11.
Races with no hit dice are CR equal to PC class level -1 or NPC class level -2.
Adding NPC class level to monster with hit dice is +1 CR per class level.
Tom, I think you missed Ashiel's point. The point was the the bestiary suggests that NPC classes give +1 CR for every 2 levels, which the core book suggests level -2 for CR. Ashiel is suggesting that the figure from the bestiary is a much more reasonable source for determining the CR, as it fits better in line with the way CR actually works.
Bingo.
After that, Ashiel was helping me crunch some numbers since I have just finished statting huge numbers of NPC's ( a cult with 1st ,2nd,3rd,4th,5th and 6th level adepts as well as a high priestess and a naga. A huge regionally zoned very hierarchical Druidic order. A legion of soldiers with bowmen, infantry, cavalry, warrior-priests and champion-knights) and I was beginning to notice the cr's and treasure values were a mess before I saw this thread and considered using the bestiary method.
Ugh.
I don't want to redo all my NPC's. You shouldn't have said all that.
Heh. Well if it makes you happier, the core rulebook method isn't so terrible when it's only dealing with PC-classed NPCs. In that case, it only gives them too much gear (CR+1 gear actually). Not the end of the world. It really falls apart with NPC classed enemies though. >.>
It shouldn't be that hard. I find it actually makes it easier for me to produce NPCs quickly with a calculator. It's very easy to acquire their core statistics on the fly and know it's about the right CR.
For example, if I want a CR 6 warrior, I take the base warrior 1 (let's say a human) who is less than CR 1, then add 12 warrior levels. The result is 13d10 HD, +13/+8/+3 BAB, +8 Fort, +4 Ref, +4 Will, and 3 skills at 13 ranks. Throw on some feats, apply ability modifiers, and gear 'em with 4,650 gp. Done deal, and he or she comes out great for a CR 6 NPC.
Wrong a level 13 human warroir is CR 11.
Races with no hit dice are CR equal to PC class level -1 or NPC class level -2.
Adding NPC class level to monster with hit dice is +1 CR per 2 class levels.
The broken thing in Pathfinder NPC class level are never count associated class levels.
And there fore always count at the rate of +2 levels to +1 CR.
So a level 20 Goblin adept is CR 18 while level 20 Troll adept is CR 15.
(Troll CR 5 +(20levels/2)=15CR) witch I think is Broken.
Any time class levels are greater than Racial Hite Dice then They should Add at the rate of +1 per level. As was in 3.5 D&D.
Also after you advance any monster and Add it new gear, you should check it new CR vs the CR on table 1-1 on page 291 of the Bestiary to see if it new CR is right. It may need to go up or down by 1.
Also do not drop the fractions ie Ogre is CR 3 while at same time Ogre Warrior 2 is CR 3 and Ogre fighter 1 is CR 3. That is Broke as well.
Also do not drop the fractions ie Ogre is CR 3 while at same time Ogre Warrior 2 is CR 3 and Ogre fighter 1 is CR 3. That is Broke as well.
Huh? If the Ogre is CR3, an Ogre Warrior 2 would be CR4. As would be an Ogre Fighter 1 (I guess you could call Fighter levels associated for an Ogre.)
(BTW: Paladin (and thus, Anti-Paladin as well) never being associated is, in my opinion, one of the worst ideas Paizo had)
NPC class level -2=CR so 2-2 =0.
PC class level -1 = CR so 1-1 =0.
Actually, that's not true Tom. A 0 HD race, such as Human, Dwarf, Halfling etc, has a CR = Level -1 because the base race, is only a CR 1/3. The next step up from CR 1/3, is CR 1/2, or CR 1 - 1 = CR 1/2.
Gonna do some Quoting!!!
Determining the final CR for a creature with class levels requires careful consideration. While adding a class level to a monster that stacks with its existing abilities and role generally adds 1 to its CR for each level taken, adding classes that do not stack is more complicated.
Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role (see Monsters by Role). Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.
Now, I thought about quoting the Monster Roles section, but that's a huge list of monsters. Suffice to say, an Ogre is a Combat Monster. Therefore, 1 level of fighter, adds +1 to an Ogres CR. 2 Levels of Warrior, adds +1 to an Ogre's CR. So an Ogre is CR 3, an Ogre Warrior 2 is CR 4, and an Ogre Fighter is CR 4.
[Edit] fixed a brain fart.
For a race without racial hit dice it's CR = level -2 steps, not CR = level -2.
Likewise a Commoner is CR = level -3 steps.
So A human warrior 2 is CR 1/2. A human commoner 2 is CR 1/3
On monsters with class levels the system is entirely different, and I think that's where the confusion is coming from. Not everyone knows the difference between calculating CR for monsters and CR for NPCs.
I prefer the Monster CR calculation, it's more accurate, I think, than the NPC CR calculation in the CRB.
It's my belief that there is no practical difference between "monsters" and "monsters". There is no reason that a gnoll with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 6, while a dwarf with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 8. Given the two systems, Bestiary one produces more realistic results no matter what the base race is; and is directly derived from the system in the 3.x MM which has been working really well for a long time, compared to the newer incomplete system in the CRB. If you wonder why it is incomplete, tell me -- using on the core rulebook -- what the CR of a fighter 3 / expert 12 is. :P
Since this is a thread filled with those who seem to like the Adept, I am going the run this idea up the flagpole and see if any salute.
I have been updating the Adept variants from Mongoose's Ultimate NPCs. Reviews are welcome. First is the Soothsayer (formerly the Seer).
Note: I am only going to make superficial changes to table 14-1: The Adept on page 448.
The Soothsayer is an adept who specializes in divination. In tribal societies, they are called on to predict if a coming battle will go well or if some looming menace threatens the tribe. They rarely partake in combat and have very few combat-oreinted spells.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6.
Class Skills
The Soothsayer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Soothsayer NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Soothsayers are skilled with all simple weapons. Soothsayers are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Spells: A Soothsayer casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Soothsayer spell list. Like a cleric, a Soothsayer must choose and prepare her spells in advance. Unlike a cleric, a Soothsayer cannot spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.
To prepare or cast a spell, a Soothsayer must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Soothsayer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the Soothsayer's Wisdom modifier.
Soothsayers, unlike wizards, do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them as divine inspiration or through their own strength of faith. Each Soothsayer must choose a time each day during which she must spend an hour in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a Soothsayer can prepare spells.
Like other spellcasters, a Soothsayer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 14–1. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score.
Where Table 14–1 indicates that the Soothsayer gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level.
Each Soothsayer has a particular holy symbol (as a divine focus) depending on the Soothsayer's magical tradition.
Orisons: Soothsayers can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Soothsayer under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
Seer focus: At 1st level, a Soothsayer gains Spell Focus: Divination as a bonus feat.
Seer bonus: At 2nd level, a Soothsayer gains the Skill Focus feat (as a bonus feat) for a Knowledge skill of her choice; this Knowledge skill must not already be Skill focused.
Soothsayer Spell List
Soothsayers choose their spells from the following list.
0 Level: create water, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, light, mending, message, prestidigitation, purify food and drink, read magic.
1st Level: bless, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, deathwatch, detect chaos/evil/good/law, detect undead, identify, protection from chaos/evil/good/law.
2nd Level: augury, bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, calm emotions, delay poison, find traps, invisibility, locate object, mirror image, obscure object, see invisibility.
3rd Level: arcane sight, bestow curse, clairaudience, clairvoyance, continual flame, invisibility purge, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, neutralize poison, remove curse, remove disease, speak with dead, tongues.
4th Level: detect scrying, discern lies, divination, locate creature, scrying, sending.
5th Level: break enchantment, commune, contact other plane, greater command, true seeing.
Designer's note: If you are including spells from an outside source (i.e Rite Publishing's 101 * level spells), then PLEASE infuse appropriate Divination spells into the Soothsayer's spell list. I would try to develop a game mechanic to allow the NPC adept to gain additional spells but I do not feel that would work best.
I envision Soothsayers using their Divinations and, especially, Knowledge skills to become trusted advisers to the tribal leaders.
For a reason I can not explain, I think, at about level 8, Soothsayers could become Loremasters; I know that tribal advisers and educated spellcasters should not mix but, somehow, this could work in some strange way.
It's my belief that there is no practical difference between "monsters" and "monsters". There is no reason that a gnoll with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 6, while a dwarf with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 8. Given the two systems, Bestiary one produces more realistic results no matter what the base race is; and is directly derived from the system in the 3.x MM which has been working really well for a long time, compared to the newer incomplete system in the CRB. If you wonder why it is incomplete, tell me -- using on the core rulebook -- what the CR of a fighter 3 / expert 12 is. :P
A Gnoll with 10 levels of Warrior wouldn't be CR 6. It would actually be a CR 11 monster. Non-key classes (including all NPC classes) only count as 1/2 CR prior to the monster's total number of levels meeting its base CR. In the case of a CR 1 or lower monster, every level of any class adds 1 to the CR.
(Personally I would drop it to CR 10 for being of an NPC class. Otherwise it's the same CR as a Gnoll fighter 10, which doesn't make sense)
I like the Soothsayer, and have been pondering on 'beefing' the Adept class in my own time in some way. Currently, the only thing I have in the works, is the Bath Sal... Zombie Apocalypse using the NPC classes. This idea actually spawned exclusively around the idea of an Adept being fairly useful in a Z-Day event based off the spell Lightning Bolt.
The other thing I've got in the works, is for my own custom game. I plan on introducing a Kobold Menace later on. I really enjoyed Ashiel's Dread Kobold and some ideas from the Kobold Dungeon in his 'Mean GMs' thread, but I'll be expanding on it. Specifically, I think a Dragonbreath Kobold form Classic Monsters revisted, turning him into a Dragonbreath Dread Kobold, with 9 or so levels of Adept. At the end of a narrow, trapped, tunnel, the Kobold will taunt the PCs into coming after him. After they enter the tunnel, he will unleash his 9d6 lightning bolt, and then a scorching ray on the nearest target. After that, three Dread Kobolds (the Dragonbreath's sons) will come up to the entrance, 1 with a tower shield to block the entrance, and the other two with crossbows. The tower shield will first throw a Smoke Bullet, also from Classic Monster Revisited, giving his two brothers concealment, and sneak attack damage when in range.
Currently, my group regards Kobolds as nothing more thank jokes. The last time we encountered them, was in Kingmaker, and they were stoned/drunk/otherwise intoxicated, and we slaughtered them before they could even stand up. Later on, we made their clan allies, but that's besides the point.
It's my belief that there is no practical difference between "monsters" and "monsters". There is no reason that a gnoll with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 6, while a dwarf with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 8. Given the two systems, Bestiary one produces more realistic results no matter what the base race is; and is directly derived from the system in the 3.x MM which has been working really well for a long time, compared to the newer incomplete system in the CRB. If you wonder why it is incomplete, tell me -- using on the core rulebook -- what the CR of a fighter 3 / expert 12 is. :PA Gnoll with 10 levels of Warrior wouldn't be CR 6. It would actually be a CR 11 monster. Non-key classes (including all NPC classes) only count as 1/2 CR prior to the monster's total number of levels meeting its base CR. In the case of a CR 1 or lower monster, every level of any class adds 1 to the CR.
(Personally I would drop it to CR 10 for being of an NPC class. Otherwise it's the same CR as a Gnoll fighter 10, which doesn't make sense)
Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added).
Actually, a Gnoll Warrior 2 would be CR 2, as he needs one level of warrior to equal his CR 1 rating. After that point, each level of Warrior adds to his CR. So a Gnoll Warrior 10 would be CR 9. The key with NPC classes, is to find things with lots of racial hit die or high CR. Take a Giant, and toss on Warrior levels until the Warrior levels equals his CR. For example, a Hill Giant is Cr 7, so tossing 7 levels of warrior on him, makes him a CR 10 encounter. Each level of Warrior after 7, increase his CR on a 1 to 1 ratio.
Semi-OT - To me, there is a glaring hole in the NPC classes...the arcane equivalent of the adept. We have the watered-down version of the fighter (warrior), rogue (expert), and cleric (adept). Where's the watered down version of the wizard/sorcerer?
There is an Arcane Adept on some wiki somewhere; I saw it recently.
It is a spontaneous caster and Charisma is the attribute.
Next is the Smite Caster (formerly the Smiter):
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6.
Class Skills
The Smite Caster's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Smite Caster NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Smite Casters are skilled with weapons and are proficient with armor and shields since the prerequisite to the Smite Caster class is, at least, one level of Warrior (or Barbarian or Fighter or Magus or Paladin/AntiPaladin).
Spells: A Smite Caster casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Smite Caster spell list. Like a cleric, a Smite Caster must choose and prepare her spells in advance. Unlike a cleric, a Smite Caster cannot spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.
To prepare or cast a spell, a Smite Caster must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Smite Caster's spell is 10 + the spell level + the Smite Caster's Wisdom modifier.
Unlike wizards, Smite Casters do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them as divine inspiration or through their own strength of faith. Each Smite Caster must choose a time each day during which she must spend an hour in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a Smite Caster can prepare spells.
Like other spellcasters, a Smite Caster can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table Smite Caster. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score.
Where Table Smite Caster indicates that the Smite Caster gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level.
Each Smite Caster has a particular holy symbol (as a divine focus) depending on the Smite Caster's magical tradition.
Orisons: Smite Caster can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Smite Caster under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
Prerequisite: No Smite Caster will train another to be a Smite Caster unless the applicant has trained as a warrior (read as at least one level of Warrior or Barbarian or Fighter or Magus or Paladin/Antipaladin).
Smiter bonus: At 2nd level and every two levels after, the Smite Caster may select one spell from either the Evocation school or the Necromancy school from any spell list; the spell must be of a level the Smite Caster can cast and is subject to all alignment restrictions. The Smite Caster now treats this selected spell as if it appears on the Smite Caster Spell list.
Smite Casting: Her levels of Warrior (or Barbarian or Fighter or Magus or Paladin/AnitPaladin) add to her levels of Smite Caster to determine her casting level.
Smite Caster Spell List
Smite Casters choose their spells from the following list.
0 Level: daze, detect magic, ghost sound, guidance, light, prestidigitation, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue.
1st Level: bane, bless, burning hands, cause fear, chill touch, inflict light wounds, obscuring mist, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, sleep.
2nd Level: aid, bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, darkness, inflict moderate wounds, resitance, scare, scorching ray, shatter.
3rd Level: animate dead, bestow curse, contagion, continual flame, daylight, deeper darkness, fireball, inflict serious wounds, lightning bolt, poison, rage.
4th Level: black tentacles, divine power, fire shield, ice storm, inflict critical wounds, minor creation, polymorph, stoneskin, wall of fire, wall of ice.
5th Level: baleful polymorph, break enchantment, cloudkill, insect plague, mass inflict light wounds, slay living, wall of stone, wall of thorns.
Design notes: My concept behind the Smite Caster is an Amazon Sorceress for Orcs. Yes, I could have given her the Light Armor and Martial Weapon feats for free but I thought it was simply better to require her to be a warrior before becoming a spell-caster. Since armor does not interfere with divine spell-casting, I thought this would be a good idea.
One of my favorite things about Adepts is that they do not need the Wisdom of a demigod to cast spells. This is espeically important for races with a penalty to the Wisdom attribute. The Smite Caster provides a variety of offensive spells for primitive peoples.
It's my belief that there is no practical difference between "monsters" and "monsters". There is no reason that a gnoll with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 6, while a dwarf with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 8. Given the two systems, Bestiary one produces more realistic results no matter what the base race is; and is directly derived from the system in the 3.x MM which has been working really well for a long time, compared to the newer incomplete system in the CRB. If you wonder why it is incomplete, tell me -- using on the core rulebook -- what the CR of a fighter 3 / expert 12 is. :PA Gnoll with 10 levels of Warrior wouldn't be CR 6. It would actually be a CR 11 monster. Non-key classes (including all NPC classes) only count as 1/2 CR prior to the monster's total number of levels meeting its base CR. In the case of a CR 1 or lower monster, every level of any class adds 1 to the CR.
(Personally I would drop it to CR 10 for being of an NPC class. Otherwise it's the same CR as a Gnoll fighter 10, which doesn't make sense)
You may wish to re-read it. It specifically says NPC class levels are never treated as key, noting it after the rule that levels are considered key after X becomes equal to Y. NPC levels are more like racial HD in terms of power, and as such are only providing a +1/2 per level.
You may wish to re-read it. It specifically says NPC class levels are never treated as key, noting it after the rule that levels are considered key after X becomes equal to Y. NPC levels are more like racial HD in terms of power, and as such are only providing a +1/2 per level.It's my belief that there is no practical difference between "monsters" and "monsters". There is no reason that a gnoll with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 6, while a dwarf with 10 levels of warrior would be CR 8. Given the two systems, Bestiary one produces more realistic results no matter what the base race is; and is directly derived from the system in the 3.x MM which has been working really well for a long time, compared to the newer incomplete system in the CRB. If you wonder why it is incomplete, tell me -- using on the core rulebook -- what the CR of a fighter 3 / expert 12 is. :PA Gnoll with 10 levels of Warrior wouldn't be CR 6. It would actually be a CR 11 monster. Non-key classes (including all NPC classes) only count as 1/2 CR prior to the monster's total number of levels meeting its base CR. In the case of a CR 1 or lower monster, every level of any class adds 1 to the CR.
(Personally I would drop it to CR 10 for being of an NPC class. Otherwise it's the same CR as a Gnoll fighter 10, which doesn't make sense)
I saw that myself, and that's how I run it (also, I knew you would comment on that line :P), but I think, in practice, it's used as I posted it. I can't be sure though, because I never see NPC classes actually being used in 'official' publications. They might be in PFS, but I've only ran one of those scenarios, and it didn't include them. Maybe if there was some published material with NPC levels, high enough for us to break down, we could find out the one that the devs/editors/writers use themselves.
It personally makes sense to treat them as only 1/2 levels. With the possible exception of Warrior and Adept, you really don't gain that much when it comes to NPC classes. Sure, Aristocrat, and Expert add lots of skills, but when it comes to determining CR, having 10,000 skill points isn't going to make them any tougher.
Hmm, though a Hill Giant with tons of levels in Expert, and the Master Crafstman Feat to make him a Magic Item Creation prodigy, would be hilarious. Have him sit in his cave, leading the tribe, and when the PCs come in, he's got the classic "Posh" interior, speaks with a well refined and cultured accent, and is a 'frightfully intelligent chap' would certainly be hilarious. Bonus points for top hat, monocle and pipe. [Edit] Given a little more thought, I'll definitely be rolling this guy to sit in my NPC file. It's just too fun not to use. Maybe even turn him into an ally at a later date. But the thought of this guy but 17 ft tall and thrashing the party with a cane just makes me giggle inside.
That's a hilarious thought for a giant. I've used smart giants as enemies and allies of PCs before, but that's a new one on me. :)
It's true. Warrior and Adept levels aren't that impressive, but are usually the two obvious choices for certain things. However, expert levels actually aren't bad if you plan to add quite a few. They get 3/4 BAB, d8 HP, and good will saves; and you'd be surprised as to how useful some extra skill points can be (Knowledge: Nature can reveal specifics about the party, while Stealth and Perception are obvious choices, Spellcraft can help an enemy make strategic choices, Linguistics allows enemies to know a variety of languages which may surprise players when they speak in something off the wall like Halfling only for the enemy to react accordingly, and things like Acrobatics can be really useful).
Really, adding HD for either expert or aristocrat is similar to adding humanoid HD. If humanoid or undead HD are good enough, then those will be too. :)