I felt that exotic weapons are weapons that are either extremely rare like a repeating heavy crossbow, or represented something generally unwieldy or requiring special skills like a double axe, sword breaker or bastard sword.
I was surprised to find the wasazashi in such a class as it seems to be essentially a single edged short sword or long dager but not necessarily rare or difficult to use.
any idea why Wakazashi would fall into the exotic realm?
To give that special awesomeness factor to certain classes.
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I liked the 3.x way of handling it too. Not every katana (or any other oriental weapon for that matter) made was created to the exacting standards that a weapon made for a daimyo would have been. Historically, Japanese bandits had katanas and they were typically poorly made crap.
Pathfinder has simply gone the route of many fantasy games with the assumption that oriental=better.
Exotic weapons tend to be better than martial weapons. With the Wakazashi though, this holds true. I wouldn't say it's worth the EWP feat, but for a character who has access to it for free(like a Ninja), there is no reason not to use it.
I think i am going to go the kalshane rout as it also matches the katana's double proficiency.
wakazashi is a one handed martial weapon or a light exotic weapon.
Yeah, not sure why it is exotic, given the context of the other Samurai weapons.
Katana = martial ( if used two-handed )
No-dachi = martial
Naginata = martial
No idea why they thought the Wakizashi needed to be exotic.
no reason it should be, it's just a finessable scimitar.
because it outclasses the Kukri, a Light Martial weapon (1d4 18-20/2x)
by 1 freaking point of damage. knifemasters will still prefer the kukri.
1 point of damage adds up quite quickly, and the kukri is already pretty much the best light weapon choice for most. Definitely requires the exotic to be light.
having said all that I am equally suprised that a Starknife is considered a standard martial weapon. they seem awkward as hell to use and deal fair damage for a light weapon both melee and at range.
Huge size Wakizashi? 2d8 dmg, 18-20/x2 crit, -4 non-proficiency, wielded as 2h weapon.
a larger size weapon is not just a step up in hands to use.
a large dagger is not just a short sword for a medium wielder.
a medium long sword is not just a two handed sword for small wielders.
The biggest problem with exotic weapons is that its a catch all for things that are more powerful or hard to use but since its a feat to get them a good number end up not used to to the fact that i can get an equal or better weapon without the extra feat.
I kind of wish weapon proficiency was a skill, kind of like linguistics. players would still get a list of proficiencies at level one but past that they would have to apply a certain amount of skill points to learn new weapons. maybe its one skill point per weapon, maybe different weapons require different amounts of skills, or maybe the number of skills applied to a weapon open up additional abilities with that weapon.
I think it would be pretty cool.
hm... maybe i should homebrew that
1 point of damage adds up quite quickly, and the kukri is already pretty much the best light weapon choice for most. Definitely requires the exotic to be light.
One point of damage ( on average ) per hit is utterly and completely irrelevant in the grand matter of things, as soon as you hit something like level three.
I liked the 3.x way of handling it too. Not every katana (or any other oriental weapon for that matter) made was created to the exacting standards that a weapon made for a daimyo would have been. Historically, Japanese bandits had katanas and they were typically poorly made crap.
Pathfinder has simply gone the route of many fantasy games with the assumption that oriental=better.
Not so.
Rapier-martial-1d6/18-20/x2 and it's piercing.
No other piercing weapon gets that Crit range.
That's a handout.
At least the Wakizashi, Katana and No Dachi follow a consistent dynamic with other curved blades.
The other Asian swords kinda suck, butterfly sword and the 9 Ring Broadsword are lame by comparison.
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I kind of wish weapon proficiency was a skill, kind of like linguistics. players would still get a list of proficiencies at level one but past that they would have to apply a certain amount of skill points to learn new weapons. maybe its one skill point per weapon, maybe different weapons require different amounts of skills, or maybe the number of skills applied to a weapon open up additional abilities with that weapon.
I think it would be pretty cool.
hm... maybe i should homebrew that
back in the days of AD&D every character had a certain number of proficiencies, and they just selected which ones they wanted.
I've always thought that classes should get a number of free weapon proficiencies based on their BAB: 1/2=0 3/4=1 1/1=2. Feats are rare, incredibly important, and not something that is ever going to be wasted on a weapon proficiency.
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I've always thought that classes should get a number of free weapon proficiencies based on their BAB: 1/2=0 3/4=1 1/1=2. Feats are rare, incredibly important, and not something that is ever going to be wasted on a weapon proficiency.
I have two exotic weapon proficiencies on my PFS character.
One of them is the Wakazashi.
Some people build for concept, not min/max.
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I'm not touching that argument with a 10 foot pole, I know a trap when I see one.
That said: people are more likely to take a level in a different class than EWP.
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I'm not touching that argument with a 10 foot pole, I know a trap when I see one.
That said: people are more likely to take a level in a different class than EWP.
More likely....yes.
As an absolute statement....no.
And it was not a trap. It was a response to your absolute statement. A few more games and I will be swinging both a katana and a Wakazashi. Not because it is an optimal choice, but because it is how I envisioned the character when I created him.
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Use these weapon proficiencies instead.
Interesting.
I enjoyed how weapons and armor worked in Rolemaster.
Every weapon had a full page table cross referencing its effectiveness vs all 20 AC values. Light weapons were very easy to hit with and very effective vs lightly armed opponents. Heavy weapons more difficult to hit with, but able to punch through armor.
Someone with a Maul would be hard pressed to hit Conan (unarmored and fast). Someone with a rapier could tag an opponent in full plate armor at will...for 1 point of damage. Reverse targets and the weapons are devastating.
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I'm not sure if people care or not, but a wakizashi not only is 1d6, a light weapon, and has an 18-20 threat range, but it also deals slashing AND piercing -- something that no other 18-20 weapon can do.
Is this a deal-breaker? I don't know, how many monsters are there that have DR/slashing, and how many monsters are there that have DR/piercing?
As for the Deadly property... if you can manage a coup de grace on a target, something tells me that a fort save increased by 4 is the least of its problems.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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IIRC, the Wakazashi is effectively one step better than the rapier by doing P/S damage.
Wakazashi - Light, finessable, 1d6, 18-20 X2, P or S, Deadly.
Rapier - Medium*, finessable, 1d6, 18-20 X2, P
Scimitar - Medium, 1d6, 18-20 X2, S
*Rapier is a medium weapon, but can be finessed, it cannot be used two handed for extra damage (Something Inego Montoya apparently forgot).
So for the Wakazashi it's the P/S and Deadly that 'bump it up' to being 'better-than-a-rapier' exotic. (Whether you feel that's enough, is up to you.)
I do note that the 'make the scimitar finessable feat' precludes getting the benefit for using it two handed, so it's (roughly) equal to using a Wakazashi in the first place.
Eh, just take one of the classes (Yojimbo ranger or one of the samurai archetypes) from Rite Publishing's Way of the Samurai who get both katana and wakizashi as standard weapon issue without the need for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. If your character is not from a Japan-like setting both weapons should be unknown, let alone exotic.
I thought it was exotic to keep people who aren't samurai from using it.
Thank god I don't have to see a bunch of European farmers and elves running around with katanas and wakizashis because they are "better".
They really aren't better though, sure they have a slight statistical advantage, but they are also cost-prohibitive to NPCs, do you want a long sword, or this other word that's slightly better and costs more than 3 times as much as the longsword? Also, no one really knows how to make the second weapon, so you are going to have to travel to where they do know how to make it, at least as far as Magnimar, maybe Sandpoint, maybe the Linnorn Kingdoms.
or if you live in the shackles, buy one off a tengu trader.
or if you live in the shackles, buy one off a tengu trader.
Right, forgot about them.
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Exotic=/=Better in this game. Also Exotic=/=worthwhile
I'm sorry but I'm just going to reskin my weapon and not take the feat hit thank you very much.
or ask your DM if you can abuse your ethnicity as a means to gain a form of racial weapon familiarity.
like a Tian of Minkan descent treating the katana, shuriken, and wakazashi as martial weapons, or a human of Taldan descent treating the Falcata as a martial weapon as examples.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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But, strictly speaking the Wakazashi is better than the kukri or rapier. Two damage types, special property.
Now we can argue if it is worth the feat, but it is more versitile than either 'western' weapon (calling the kukri western is funny).
Reskinning I understand. My character I try to write about calls his sword a kherev which I describe as an oversize scimitar that can be used one handed by an expert. In game terms, it uses the mechanics of the katana, or would use the bastard sword, if I couldn't use the katana.
Rapier can be used for Power Attack, the Wakizashi can't. You can't use the Rapier for a two-handed attack, that's true. Rapier is mostly equal, IMO.
Personally in a home game if someone wanted to use the oriental weapons and was playing a class with martial proficiencies it would simply end up as a swap. Most normal martial weapons become exotic, and a big chunk of the oriental weapons become martial. Now for some character who has traveled for one of the oriental themed lands and is with a party mostly in normal territory, this would make it difficult to upgrade weapons from normal to masterwork, and mean it would be very rare to find an upgrade for his weapons in loot form. I personally have already discussed this with the other DM in my group to do it with a magus. His starting languages will not contain common and there will be lots of roleplaying going on to integrate him into the party. Yes part of the reasoning behind my choice is that I want a D8 1h weapon with the longer crit range, but I also think it will be fun to play an oriental character out of his home lands.
Asta
PSY
Well, while the Wakizashi definitely is an upgrade over a short sword, the Rogue and Ninja don't depend on critical hits very much for their damage output. At least the dexterity variant, but if you go the strength variant way, then a Wakizashi becomes sub-optimal against the Katana, because you can two-hand power attack with the Katana.
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Rapier can be used for Power Attack, the Wakizashi can't. You can't use the Rapier for a two-handed attack, that's true. Rapier is mostly equal, IMO.
Hmmm..
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Unless I am missing a rule somewhere (possible) you are reminiscing a 3.x rule that wasn't transplanted in Pathfinder.
The thing is that Longswords are used across several nations and cultures such as the British, French, Scots, Irish, Nordic, Germanic (Nordic probably falls under this), essentially all of Europe as well as China. Japan also has historic cases of straight edged double edged swords as well. However, how common is a single edged slightly curved sword made like the katana and wakizashi? Only Japan with their katana and wakazashi and China with the miao-dao. Although this argument then does bring up the deal with Nodachis being Martial Weapons and not Exotic.
Ah... Scimitar, Cutlass, Falchion are also curved single edged swords... just putting that out there.
The thing is...
The nodaichi, an unwieldy difficult to use sword with an extremely long blade in the real world, is martial.
The Katana, essentially a bastard sword with a curved well made blade, is a martial weapon if you chose to use it two handed and only requires exotic weapon proficiency to use such a large but well balanced weapon with only one hand.
The Wakazashi, arguably the easiest to use effectively in the real world, is instead treated as the most unusual weapon of the three for no discernible reason.
We are not talking about trying to use a chain, or a sword with hooked blades, or a double ended Axe. we are talking about swords by another name.
Unless I am missing a rule somewhere (possible) you are reminiscing a 3.x rule that wasn't transplanted in Pathfinder.
I was referring to this:
Rapier
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
Drawback: You can't wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage.
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Unless I am missing a rule somewhere (possible) you are reminiscing a 3.x rule that wasn't transplanted in Pathfinder.I was referring to this:
Rapier
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
Drawback: You can't wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage.
My comment was about this:
Rapier can be used for Power Attack, the Wakizashi can't.
so, why you think that a wakizashi can't be used with power attack?
Yeah, you're right, I forgot that this doesn't apply anymore in PF. It happens.