RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Somewhere Kenny Loggins smiles, as his work is used as a metaphor for gaming. Rest in peace, Kenny. Rest in peace.
When something you have spent time in, be it a game or a relationship or anything really, is cut short, shorter than you expected, there is always a sense of loss. Not for what you have, but for what will never be. 3.x players are fortunate that Paizo decided to pick up the pieces and create something living and breathing so that our sense of loss was briefly short. I hope someone is able to do for 4e players as well.
OMG, they killed Kenny? You bastards!
jk. So you don't have to look it up, Mr. Loggins is alive and well.
theroc, I've been a pretty hard-core 4venger (if that term still applies?) since the beginning. I'd advocate to any new person entering the hobby to try 4E first and then go to other systems of D&D and Pathfinder becuase I think 4E gives a person the best ways to become/create/roleplay a character they envison yet remain pretty solid in their contributins at the table. That being said, I still heavily regard v3.5 as a great system (and by that extention, Pathfinder). I still play v3.5 pretty evenly with 4E because it's a system my group knows, a system that we can easily tweak, homebrew, and customize without worry, and it's the system my wife favors. I don't belive in brand/system loyalty because it's not going anywhere and no one can take away my books either.
That being said, about D&D:Next......I'm mildy curious with a heavy dose of *sigh*. I really enjoyed 4E and I am sad that they're pretty much done with it. I can take heart in knowing that they won't screw with it any more in additional Errata (curse you Magic Missile errata!!!) NOR do I have to worry about inconsistant/bad rules mucking up the system. Meaning there were a LOT of Dragon content garbage that snuck it's way into the game that's just horribly designed.
So with the new Playtest I'm hoping to help them achieve a system I'd prefer to play a LOT (not over 4E or 3E or PF, but next to). And I like where they're going with the flexability, the low-numbers and easy immersion, the divorced aspect of magic items and leveling expectations, and archtypes/themes/backgrounds. What scares me is old mechanics creeping back in such as Vancian spellcasting, the loss of class "roles", 3E multiclassing (seriously, no one used the 20% XP penalty and it was horribly broken), and Rarity tags for Races and Classes (if they're tied into mechanics, hopefully not).
So I'd look at the new system as a chance to play a different, fun, and exciting game but not to supplant the games your currently play. And give it a go for a few months, perhaps you'll like it MORE than any gaming product out there!!
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I actually feel more sorry for you, and other 4e fans, than I did for those affected by the 3e/4e split. There is no OGL for 4e to continue into the future (well, I suppose a 3.5 clone could be done, but that's awkward legal ground).
At the same time, adventures can be written "edition-neutral" and as long as you take care of your books, you're set.
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This is where my apology comes into play. I now better understand the feeling of edition loyalty, and even the slight feeling of betrayal for moving on from something I enjoy and think works. I will likely be one of those who again stays with 4E when D&D Next releases. I will be one of the dissenting fragmenting customers. I have much more in common with the Pathfinder gamer now. I appreciate what you were faced with,...
Thank you for understanding our frustration and loss. However, with the loss of Monte Cook, I wonder if the CEO over there is making good choices for the good of WotC's Roleplaying Game. However, there is no OGL for fourth to continue. And I'm glad.
You need to set up a development team to actually custom create anything in the way of classes for Fourth. Which is a good thing that the GSL is so restrictive. But getting back to Monte Cook. I wonder if the CEO is unknowingly killing the brand for the bottom line. Whatever Monte left for, it can't be a good sign that the Wizards CEO is wise. However, if the Brand dies, the GAME will still live on because the OGL gives everything about D&D to the fans.
We may not own the brand, but we own the game.
Hey I didn't say he was dead, just resting... In peace.
Or maybe he is dead, and Jim Messina took his place a long time ago, living his double life as both Loggins and Messina...
Irregardless, Kenny Loggins will live forever, riding the infinite airwaves of adult contemporary radio.
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I actually feel more sorry for you, and other 4e fans, than I did for those affected by the 3e/4e split. There is no OGL for 4e to continue into the future (well, I suppose a 3.5 clone could be done, but that's awkward legal ground).
At the same time, adventures can be written "edition-neutral" and as long as you take care of your books, you're set.
The main worry is if they take the online applications away. I'd be quite annoyed about that as they are very useful.
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The main worry is if they take the online applications away. I'd be quite annoyed about that as they are very useful.I actually feel more sorry for you, and other 4e fans, than I did for those affected by the 3e/4e split. There is no OGL for 4e to continue into the future (well, I suppose a 3.5 clone could be done, but that's awkward legal ground).
At the same time, adventures can be written "edition-neutral" and as long as you take care of your books, you're set.
That would be a shaft move, but I'm not sure if WotC can resist the lure of insta-converting 50k people to the new edition (oh, so DDI doesn't support 4E any more...but it's so damn convenient to use... oh well, let's go 5E then).
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theroc, I've been a pretty hard-core 4venger (if that term still applies?) ...I think it's more appropriate than ever with the upcoming release of 5E. Avenging the system you love and all that...
"Even if we cant save 3th edition, you can be sure we'll avenge it."
:p
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That would be a shaft move, but I'm not sure if WotC can resist the lure of insta-converting 50k people to the new edition (oh, so DDI doesn't support 4E any more...but it's so damn convenient to use... oh well, let's go 5E then).The main worry is if they take the online applications away. I'd be quite annoyed about that as they are very useful.I actually feel more sorry for you, and other 4e fans, than I did for those affected by the 3e/4e split. There is no OGL for 4e to continue into the future (well, I suppose a 3.5 clone could be done, but that's awkward legal ground).
At the same time, adventures can be written "edition-neutral" and as long as you take care of your books, you're set.
Maybe, but to be honest you are fairly out of date in the way you consider WotC to be acting. They have noticed the annoyance some of their previous actions created and are trying to be more accommodating. There is still plenty of 3e stuff still on their servers now, for instance.
The main worry is if they take the online applications away. I'd be quite annoyed about that as they are very useful.I actually feel more sorry for you, and other 4e fans, than I did for those affected by the 3e/4e split. There is no OGL for 4e to continue into the future (well, I suppose a 3.5 clone could be done, but that's awkward legal ground).
At the same time, adventures can be written "edition-neutral" and as long as you take care of your books, you're set.
I agree, but you'd have to think it wouldnt actually cost them to keep it up. All it would mean is some people would maintain a subscription that would otherwise lapse.
That's what I'm hoping, anyhow.
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Well, it would cost them, since the IT would need to be supported and the hardware and software maintained. That's probably not enormous compared with development, but it would be a cost nevertheless. I'd expect at least a transition, and I'd also expect them to be a lot more careful about cutting off stuff they now offer considering the irritation they managed to cause in the past with the pdfs. But it isn't cost-free for them.
I guess I figured the DDI was bound to continue into D&D:next - new tools, dungeon, dragon, etcetera.
As such, reserving some memory and bandwidth for 4E players doesn't seem that onerous. Granted I could be way off base both with their plans and with how computers work.
My guess? As soon as the new game is released, everything becomes slashed. They will blame piracy for this drastic move. There will be harsh words and strong feelings, and a further split customer group. They will also make new ads where they tell everyone how stupid and boring it is to play 4th edition. Due to aforementioned harsh words, they are going to implement severe restrictions of what people are allowed to write on their forums, or shut the forums down completely.
Why? The bean counters are in charge, same as last time. It isn't going to change unless it hurts their bottom line. With this new game, everyone will start buying new rulebooks, which is actually good for their bottom line.
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My guess? As soon as the new game is released, everything becomes slashed. They will blame piracy for this drastic move. There will be harsh words and strong feelings, and a further split customer group. They will also make new ads where they tell everyone how stupid and boring it is to play 4th edition. Due to aforementioned harsh words, they are going to implement severe restrictions of what people are allowed to write on their forums, or shut the forums down completely.
Why? The bean counters are in charge, same as last time. It isn't going to change unless it hurts their bottom line. With this new game, everyone will start buying new rulebooks, which is actually good for their bottom line.
Yes, I'm sure that is exactly what they will do.
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I guess I figured the DDI was bound to continue into D&D:next - new tools, dungeon, dragon, etcetera.
As such, reserving some memory and bandwidth for 4E players doesn't seem that onerous. Granted I could be way off base both with their plans and with how computers work.
Maybe. I agree that the subscription will probably continue, but whether they want to contiune to support 4e applications for long after then new system comes out is moot. It will cost them something but more specifically it would run counter to their strategy. On the other hand, they might consider that they want to hang on to both the 4e and the putative new 5e crowd, and continue to support. At this stage I doubt they have made up their minds.
Maybe, but to be honest you are fairly out of date in the way you consider WotC to be acting. They have noticed the annoyance some of their previous actions created and are trying to be more accommodating. There is still plenty of 3e stuff still on their servers now, for instance.
And it's buried so deep you have to explicitly know exactly what you're searching for and Google it out. Simply leaving old data up on a server isn't what I'd call awesome customer service. It could be akin to just being too lazy to take it down.
Now, if they had some sort of link from the front page directing a newcomer to browse the previous edition material, that'd be different. If such a link exists aright now(I haven't checked in a while) I'll gladly retract my statement.
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I'll check, but there's certainly no link on the front page. They've redesigned the website and I tend not to look at the content much, just the applications, so I don't know if there are easy links to the old stuff or not further in - someone might enlighten us. However, they certainly didn't take down the older stuff the instant 4e came out - I remember searching the site to find 3e articles after 4e, but they may have buried it deeper with the redesigns.
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OK, I've had a look - first page in, click on Community, second page in, click on Article Archive. Still got the same awful search function (or lack thereof) they had under 3e, but certainly they've got stuff there dating back to 2002, though not much. A lot of it seems to be tail-end of 3e, around about 2006-7. So it seems fair to say not all of it is there, or at least easy to get at, but it's probably also fair to say that there is 3e stuff available. Whether that's a sinister ploy to further their evil scheme to make 4e the only RPG in the world, or just an archiving policy to save memory space, I cannot tell.
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Here is a link for the 3.5 Article Archive:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archives
And as for free adventures:
Try this
Thank you for understanding our frustration and loss. However, with the loss of Monte Cook, I wonder if the CEO over there is making good choices for the good of WotC's Roleplaying Game. However, there is no OGL for fourth to continue. And I'm glad.
The OGL itself could easily be used to create a 4E clone. Nothing stops that. Creating 4E using the OGL is actually probably easier then the OGL based 1E clones since mechanically 4E is still pretty much the d20 system. Since we have seen that the OGL can make 1E clones it stands to reason that it can make 4E clones.
Whether anyone will actually do so is another thing altogether but they could.
But only after 5e is released. Wizards of the coast hasn't stopped printing 4e.
4E being in print doesn't stop someone from using the OGL to make a 4E clone.
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OMG, they killed Kenny? You bastards!
jk. So you don't have to look it up, Mr. Loggins is alive and well.
Wait - am I the only one who thought this was a South Park reference? :)
@ the OP -- may your games always rock, no matter what your system. It was good of you to step up and express solidarity. Personally, I never could get into 4e. Partly just not my thing. Partly -- I lost my magazines. Can't forgive that. Just can't. I've been to therapy and everything. Nope. I just bear a grudge for that one. Like the one I hold against George Lucas for pissin' on my childhood memories. Just me. Just sayin'.
Again -- good of you to step up and may gaming always bring you joy!
4E being in print doesn't stop someone from using the OGL to make a 4E clone.But only after 5e is released. Wizards of the coast hasn't stopped printing 4e.
13th Age is looking pretty awesome in that regard...
4E being in print doesn't stop someone from using the OGL to make a 4E clone.But only after 5e is released. Wizards of the coast hasn't stopped printing 4e.
How does one go about using the OGL to make a 4E (soon to be retro) clone? I ask because I've never desired previous editions aside from 3E and well.....we have the OGL so I don't know how one goes by that to create other systems that mimmic other editoins (including 4E)?
Is it just terms used or are we talking rules?
4E being in print doesn't stop someone from using the OGL to make a 4E clone.But only after 5e is released. Wizards of the coast hasn't stopped printing 4e.
How does one go about using the OGL to make a 4E (soon to be retro) clone? I ask because I've never desired previous editions aside from 3E and well.....we have the OGL so I don't know how one goes by that to create other systems that mimmic other editoins (including 4E)?
Is it just terms used or are we talking rules?
From what little I've seen of the 13th Age playtest (and I must stress little), the various races have at will/encounter/daily powers, and all the rest is exactly what you'd expect from a typical D20 system. Don't quote me on that, I'm talking about one play session that someone might have house ruled into existence.
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I feel your pain.
. I just bear a grudge for that one. Like the one I hold against George Lucas for pissin' on my childhood memories. Just me. Just sayin'.
I think most men aged around 40 feel that. Though, to be fair, he also gave us Natalie Portman in a white catsuit. While that may not compensate for childhood memories, it's not a bad adult one.
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I think most men aged around 40 feel that. Though, to be fair, he also gave us Natalie Portman in a white catsuit. While that may not compensate for childhood memories, it's not a bad adult one.I feel your pain.
. I just bear a grudge for that one. Like the one I hold against George Lucas for pissin' on my childhood memories. Just me. Just sayin'.
Liam Neeson as one of the coolest Jedi I've seen portrayed helps me sleep at night. He was the king.
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4E being in print doesn't stop someone from using the OGL to make a 4E clone.But only after 5e is released. Wizards of the coast hasn't stopped printing 4e.
How does one go about using the OGL to make a 4E (soon to be retro) clone? I ask because I've never desired previous editions aside from 3E and well.....we have the OGL so I don't know how one goes by that to create other systems that mimmic other editoins (including 4E)?
Is it just terms used or are we talking rules?
It doesn't. just that Wizards of the Coast may take an exception, and depending on which court they take it to. Abandon-ware, the roms you can download of 8 bit games and so forth; did set a precedent when a U.S. judge ruled in favor of the people instead of Nintendo. But I'm just saying it's safer to OGL it when 4e is officially abandoned (it's virtually abandoned now.)
Kenny Loggins tours by making personal concerts for the very wealthy - birthdays, conferences, corporate celebrations, etc. He makes a mint of money doing it, and doesn't have to put up with tickets and stadiums and advertising and all that.
==Aelryinth
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4E being in print doesn't stop someone from using the OGL to make a 4E clone.But only after 5e is released. Wizards of the coast hasn't stopped printing 4e.
How does one go about using the OGL to make a 4E (soon to be retro) clone? I ask because I've never desired previous editions aside from 3E and well.....we have the OGL so I don't know how one goes by that to create other systems that mimmic other editoins (including 4E)?
Is it just terms used or are we talking rules?
The reason the OSR games get away with basically reprinting earlier editions is you cannot copyright mechanics. Only game terms and such (Dungeon Master is a trademark, for instance, which is why all of the clones use "game master" or somesuch). By using the OGL, they get to use all of the terms for the game that are open source. But they technically don't need the OGL to make a 4e clone.
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No sir I owe you the apology. WOTC launched 4E a game many people like and love. It didn't really click for me so I walked. I didn't take it personally I still had a wealth of stuff I liked to use. Pathfinder came along and gave me some cool adventures so I threw some cash their way. I was happy people whose taste differed had a home. Then for whatever reason WOTC decided that they needed to get me back on board. I didn't ask them to but they are trying it anyways. I am sorry.
How many Pathfinder gamers would leave Pathfinder because a new, shiny edition of 5E comes out?
This would be the main reason I think WotC is setting itself up to fail with their attempt to please everybody.
4th edition, by all reports, is a good game - not my thing, but good overall. Pathfinder is also a good game. The two games fill different niches and do it well.
While I and many others are keeping an eye on 5th edition, it has a huge hurdle to overcome in that it not only has to be a good game, but it has to be better than Pathfinder to get my money. I am simply not going to pay money for two games that fill the same niche.
Just a quick observation from an SEO point of view: the 3.5 and 4E stuff that Wizards offered for free to begin with isn't likely to get taken down. Server space is pretty cheap, and if you have a bunch of high-value inbound links going to an old page (as they very likely do for things like the 3.5 Tomb of Horrors and White Plume Mountain revamps), it's more beneficial to keep them in place so you still have quality search engine bait running to your domain. You could, of course, take the content down and set up a 301 redirect, but then you also run the risk that the webmaster who put the link in place will notice it and remove their link - a potential net loss versus a clear net gain of leaving it in place. Keeping the content in place also increases your chances of catching long-tail, high conversion web traffic - someone who hasn't played since the 80s and searches for "tomb of horrors" for nostalgic poops n giggles may just like what they see and go out and buy a rule book.
(Incidentally, does anyone know if WotC places Amazon affiliate links on their own site for their products to get an extra dime off online sales from hubs like Amazon or B&N? Or is that considered a violation of most e-commerce sites' affiliate terms?)
In response to Charlie Brooks: my hope is that 5E/D&D Next will fill a different niche than Pathfinder or 4E, by giving me a lighter core ruleset that isn't overly mechanical or combat-focused. Castles & Crusades fills that niche for me at present, but if D&D Next can do a better job of it - or do it in a different way than C&C does - I'll happily plunk down cash for a copy of the core rules, especially if my own players enjoy the playtest experience over the coming months.
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Yep, pretty much spot on what I've been saying. Going to have to work *really* hard to pull the Pathfinder crowd away. The community and interaction with designers have helped to build in such a sense of loyalty (and of course quality of product).
I sort of feel like that ships sailed, and Next just going to push away those of us who DID like and support 4e.
At this point, I have almost all the published 4e stuff and a very nice chunk of PF. Really not keen on a new set of books, and if I do then I have to wonder what to offload ><
How many Pathfinder gamers would leave Pathfinder because a new, shiny edition of 5E comes out?This would be the main reason I think WotC is setting itself up to fail with their attempt to please everybody.
4th edition, by all reports, is a good game - not my thing, but good overall. Pathfinder is also a good game. The two games fill different niches and do it well.
While I and many others are keeping an eye on 5th edition, it has a huge hurdle to overcome in that it not only has to be a good game, but it has to be better than Pathfinder to get my money. I am simply not going to pay money for two games that fill the same niche.
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Partly -- I lost my magazines. Can't forgive that. Just can't. I've been to therapy and everything. Nope. I just bear a grudge for that one. Like the one I hold against George Lucas for pissin' on my childhood memories. Just me. Just sayin'.
Lou, if you're gonna be at Gen Con, look me up in the PFS room. You sound like a guy I could cry over a couple of beers with. :)
Yep, pretty much spot on what I've been saying. Going to have to work *really* hard to pull the Pathfinder crowd away.
In my opinion, a 5E that doesn't fully embrace the OGL is dead on arrival. Sadly, I don't think WotC has figured this out yet...